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RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/5/2013 4:53:49 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Daughter got me "The Generals" (Thomas Ricks) to listen to in the car on the way to work. His basic thesis is the US Army moved away from battlefield relief of generals and everything went to **** for a while.

According to him...the good guys:

Pershing
Marshall (There is even a adjective "marshallian" which, as far as I can tell means "yo' **** don't stink")
Eisenhower
Patton (with flaws)
Ridgeway
O P Smith (Marine commander at Chosin)


The bad guys:

Montgomery
Taylor (in later years)
MacArthur (the whole time)...and his wife, somewhat effeminate son, family dog, the Fillipino maid.......
Westmorland
Sanchez
Pretty much everyone associated with 90th ID at the start of Normandy campaign


I'm not done yet. Haven't got to GWI, Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama or Grenada. Poor Sanchez got mentioned alreay and the Vietnam War just ended.


From my limited experince in the military ... it is a politcal machine and thus I propose that politically incorrect "bahhhstards" like Patton would be drummed out of the service in a heartbeat. Now recruits have a "stress card" if the Drill sergent is "too abusive"

I might propose that the mindset of Westmorland still exists today and why we spend blood and billions of dollars of treasure in long MIC's thinking that the enemy will see that we our superior and give up .. so far since Korea/Vietnam this has not worked. One might say Schwarzkopf's blitzkreig broke that mold, but in the end we got into an economic war of attrition/LIC with Iraq that ended up with a second MIC, and still we are in a war of attrition with these folks supported by Iran.

Generals will always fight the last war supported by a cast of charecters who agree with them and confirm their appointments. Then the *(^(*%^ hits the fan and greatness arises. Although I would contend that WWII was the last time this paradigm has shaped our military.

Great subject and read .. The good news is that my military days are long behind me ...

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 10201
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/5/2013 5:04:00 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

It's "General Marshall", Captain Mandrake.



Yes, forgot about the Presidents.

FDR gets good marks from Ricks

Truman took too long to sack MacArthur..hard to argue with that.

Johnson and JFK are blamed for the Vietnam war..along with Taylor

Nixon gets credit for at least knowing what he wanted to do.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 10202
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/5/2013 5:12:24 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

I wonder how many times Fleet Admiral Mandrake would have been relieved...by Marshall or King or God knows who.



How many days are you into this war?

_____________________________


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Post #: 10203
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/5/2013 5:12:30 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		The little girls are back from Idaho. D'oh. I think they both plan to be Solicitor General becasuse they seem to argue for fun.


FAM: Did you take a shower?

SGJr(IV): Yes.

SGJr(III): You did not, you were just in there 1 minute.

FAM: Did you get all the crevaces?

SGJr(IV): What crevaces?

FAM: Never mind. Ask your mom.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 10204
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/5/2013 5:16:08 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

I wonder how many times Fleet Admiral Mandrake would have been relieved...by Marshall or King or God knows who.



How many days are you into this war?



454 (455 if '42 was a leap year)

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 10205
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/5/2013 5:40:28 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Overview




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 10206
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/5/2013 6:23:00 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I have a rare day off and Rord Admirar Nerson is either chopping wood or captured by the Anaszi...bah. I am curious to see how our boys on Taytay are doing,

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Post #: 10207
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/5/2013 6:29:39 PM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

It's "General Marshall", Captain Mandrake.

Cap never met him, so the formality is unnecessary.
He may be familiar with his brother Court Marshall, though ...

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 10208
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/5/2013 7:41:37 PM   
sprior


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From: Portsmouth, UK
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quote:

The bad guys:

Montgomery


An American who doesn't like Montgomery? Really?

What about Slim?

_____________________________

"Grown ups are what's left when skool is finished."
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.



(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 10209
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/5/2013 11:44:43 PM   
Chickenboy


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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

I have a rare day off and Rord Admirar Nerson is either chopping wood or captured by the Anaszi...bah. I am curious to see how our boys on Taytay are doing,

Yes. I'm wondering if they survived or if they were riquidated.

_____________________________


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Post #: 10210
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/6/2013 1:25:08 AM   
moore4807


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

It's "General Marshall", Captain Mandrake.



Yes, forgot about the Presidents.

FDR gets good marks from Ricks

Truman took too long to sack MacArthur..hard to argue with that.

Johnson and JFK are blamed for the Vietnam war..along with Taylor

Nixon gets credit for at least knowing what he wanted to do.



I wasnt around then but I remember reading in one of the "history" books that Truman waited until the Republican nomination for Prez passed, because McA could of had the Republican nomination if he wanted it. Truman's people didn't think McA would lose and the results sort of speak for themselves... Chicago Tribune says Dewey beats Truman!!

_____________________________


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Post #: 10211
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/6/2013 1:37:14 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: moore4807


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

It's "General Marshall", Captain Mandrake.



Yes, forgot about the Presidents.

FDR gets good marks from Ricks

Truman took too long to sack MacArthur..hard to argue with that.

Johnson and JFK are blamed for the Vietnam war..along with Taylor

Nixon gets credit for at least knowing what he wanted to do.



I wasnt around then but I remember reading in one of the "history" books that Truman waited until the Republican nomination for Prez passed, because McA could of had the Republican nomination if he wanted it. Truman's people didn't think McA would lose and the results sort of speak for themselves... Chicago Tribune says Dewey beats Truman!!

OMG - if MacA had been elected president, he would have been in postion to use the atomic bomb he wanted to use on the Chinese during the Korean war!
Never thought I'd be grateful for a slick political trick, but Truman did the right thing there!

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to moore4807)
Post #: 10212
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/6/2013 4:15:55 AM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		From what I hear MacArthur DID want to be president. Some Texas oil types formed an exploratory effort. I didn't go very far.

MacArthur planned to go to Washington himself and leave his clone in command in the Far East. Crevah baahhstard.

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Post #: 10213
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/6/2013 4:34:13 AM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
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From: Southern California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

quote:

The bad guys:

Montgomery


An American who doesn't like Montgomery? Really?

What about Slim?



Actually, the author was quite fair to Montgomery. He only mentioned him as an exception to the pattern of Eisenhower sacking generals when they weren't team players. Montgomery at times was nearly insubordinate under Ike's command but he couldnt fire him because of the alliance.

Ricks cited at least one US general who thought Montgomery handled the northern end of the Bulge well.

The author also cites a source who believed Ike allowed Montgomery to go ahead with Market Garden in order to prove his weaknesses. That seems a bit hard to believe.

(in reply to sprior)
Post #: 10214
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/6/2013 4:35:55 AM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		As for Slim, it's already the mid 1980's in the book and Slim hasn't been mentioned. Most likey he wont be.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 10215
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/6/2013 10:17:57 AM   
sprior


Posts: 8596
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline 		An interesting view on how Brits see Americans. Not for the faint of vocabulary.

_____________________________

"Grown ups are what's left when skool is finished."
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.



(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 10216
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/6/2013 10:21:05 AM   
sprior


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From: Portsmouth, UK
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quote:

nearly insubordinate under Ike's command


Monty wasn't a team player, he was too egotistical for that. His great contribution to the war was insistsing that Overlord was widened from 3 beaches to 5. Can you image in 3 beaches on D Day? Ugh. Omaha meets Anzio.

_____________________________

"Grown ups are what's left when skool is finished."
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.



(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 10217
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/6/2013 10:23:09 AM   
sprior


Posts: 8596
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From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline
quote:

Slim hasn't been mentioned


That's a shame. Get Defeat into Victory if you haven't already read it.

_____________________________

"Grown ups are what's left when skool is finished."
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.



(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 10218
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/6/2013 2:16:12 PM   
Chickenboy


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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior
Omaha meets Anzio.


Omazio? Anzaha?

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Post #: 10219
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/6/2013 2:25:19 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

quote:

nearly insubordinate under Ike's command


Monty wasn't a team player, he was too egotistical for that. His great contribution to the war was insistsing that Overlord was widened from 3 beaches to 5. Can you image in 3 beaches on D Day? Ugh. Omaha meets Anzio.


The Book Patton: Ordeal and Triumph by Ladislas Farago highlites very well the US feelings about Monty. The lack of inititive at the Falaise pocket allows thousands of Germans to escape. The Bridge Too Far debacle from many in the US perspective was an opporujnity for Monty to have the same glorious opporujnity that Patton had sweeping France, but to be the first to cross into Germany. It failed miserably for many reasons. From my personal perspective most of the failures had to do with Monty's personality. Then the final impression is laid at the the Battle of the Bulge. Monty is in the opinion of American Generals is slow again to initially react. The capper for American Generals was Monty's statements taking credit for the victory with "American help". As the American's view it .. Patton's 100 mile advance in 2 days during winter weather relieving Bastonge was a pretty key factor for breaking up the offense.

From an American perspective [Right or wrong] Monty's ego overall cost a lot of American lives as a less selfish General might have made the sacrifice of ego to let Patton breech the Rhine at Metz. I might suggest that a better political stance might have been to let Patton's offense stall first and then execute Market Garden. As it is the US units 82nd and 101st Airborne gain lots of folklore participating in the largest failed paradrop operation.

Probably the biggest misunderstanding in my opinion for the US in WWII was that the Commonwealth had already taken tremendous casulties to that point of the war while the US were just getting wet behind the ears. Thus the US units were much more capable of trading blood for space and time. Something Patton was very willing, if not enthusiastic to do. This was a constant balance for Ike I beleive and a fundemetnal source of conflict besids egos.

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to sprior)
Post #: 10220
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/6/2013 2:29:26 PM   
Crackaces


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Joined: 7/9/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

quote:

Slim hasn't been mentioned


That's a shame. Get Defeat into Victory if you haven't already read it.


I would totally agree with you sprior. Slim not only had to fight the IJ .. but his own planners convincing them of what is possible along with fightihng egos required to the reorganize forces. I might contend that if General Slim had been in charge in 1942 he would have executed Extended Captial and put the IJ on thier heels two years early.

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to sprior)
Post #: 10221
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/6/2013 2:56:10 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		The thesis of Ricks' book is the damage to the US Army caused partly by the gradual cultural change associated with the elimination of the quick battlefield relief of general officers.

The only two British generals mentioned other than in passing are Montgomery (Eisenhower could barely stand to be around) and Alexander (portrayed very favorably).

The business about Montgomery appearing to take credit for British troops conming to the aid of American troops in the Battle of the Bulge is said to have nearly caused Eisenhower to stroke out.

Montgomery, when asked about it later, seems to have thought he was just trying to show a combined Allied effort. Sometimes I wonder if Montgomery had Asperger's syndrome.

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 10222
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/6/2013 2:56:35 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
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From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Arried troops on Taytay are ARIVE!

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Post #: 10223
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/6/2013 3:09:21 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The thesis of Ricks' book is the damage to the US Army caused partly by the gradual cultural change associated with the elimination of the quick battlefield relief of general officers.

The only two British generals mentioned other than in passing are Montgomery (Eisenhower could barely stand to be around) and Alexander (portrayed very favorably).

The business about Montgomery appearing to take credit for British troops conming to the aid of American troops in the Battle of the Bulge is said to have nearly caused Eisenhower to stroke out.

Montgomery, when asked about it later, seems to have thought he was just trying to show a combined Allied effort. Sometimes I wonder if Montgomery had Asperger's syndrome.



Hmmm I am thinking one of the DSM V diagnosis ... narcissistic sociopath comes to mind

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 10224
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/6/2013 3:16:20 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
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From: Argleton
Status: offline 		In Antony Beevor's D-Day, he talked about how little use Eisenhower had for Montgomery, and about Monty's habit of never admitting any mistep. He quotes Ike years later when he was President as saying (as best I recall it) "The man was psychotic. He never made a mistake in his life."

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Post #: 10225
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/6/2013 3:54:50 PM   
sprior


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From: Portsmouth, UK
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quote:

Commonwealth had already taken tremendous casulties


Monty was under tremendous pressure from Churchill to cut back on casualties. During the Normandy campaign the troops suffered loss rates close if not equal to WW1 rates. After that the UK was breaking up combat and support units to keep other units up to strength.

Part of the reason Monty was so popular with the rank and file was that they knew he was careful with their lives. Of course he wasn't the first pick for 8th Army but Gort's plane got shot down. An interesting what-if.

_____________________________

"Grown ups are what's left when skool is finished."
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.



(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 10226
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/6/2013 5:17:41 PM   
Ol_Dog


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From: Southern Illinois
Status: offline 		I can see Monty's PR release now " He never made a mistake - Eisenhower"


_____________________________

Common Sense is an uncommon virtue.
If you think you have everything under control, you don't fully understand the situation.

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Post #: 10227
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/6/2013 5:42:32 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

quote:

Commonwealth had already taken tremendous casulties


Monty was under tremendous pressure from Churchill to cut back on casualties. During the Normandy campaign the troops suffered loss rates close if not equal to WW1 rates. After that the UK was breaking up combat and support units to keep other units up to strength.

Part of the reason Monty was so popular with the rank and file was that they knew he was careful with their lives. Of course he wasn't the first pick for 8th Army but Gort's plane got shot down. An interesting what-if.


We had such a general ... Omar Bradley .. but I might contend because he was not pretentious as his peers ... history overlooks some of his operational failings like missing all the signs leading to the Battle of the Bulge ...

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to sprior)
Post #: 10228
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/6/2013 5:49:29 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior


Part of the reason Monty was so popular with the rank and file was that they knew he was careful with their lives.


The single most underrated skill in a general commanding troops from a democracy....In a broader context, the most underrated skill of all--to achieve national objectives with the minimum loss of your own troops at an economic cost that is affordable.

I cringe at the trend in historical writing in the last 20 years that lavishes praise on the Red Army, in order, I suspect, to attempt to make up for largely ignoring its role in WWII due to Cold War perceptions. The Red Army demonstrated an unusual ability to suffer more losses than its enemies in almost every situation. Zhukov's great victory at Nomonhan is an interesting case study. I always have like the aphorism ascribed to baseball general manager Billy Bean, "if he is such a good hitter, why doesn't he hit good?"

(in reply to sprior)
Post #: 10229
RE: Hot Asian Action (mostly clothed) - 1/6/2013 6:07:41 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		See...that's the good thing about AE. You never get annoying telegrams from back home over such annoying trivialities like casualties.

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 10230
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