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RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/15/2010 3:24:13 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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Status: offline 		That's your giddy British optimism speaking.

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Post #: 1831
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/15/2010 4:09:11 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

And here's me thinking it was going to be over by Christmas.

Chin up, mate. I agree with PP that pointed out the 'trade' of BBs. You can afford a 1:1 trade of your pre-war BBs for his BBs. He can't.

How much supply did you unload?

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Post #: 1832
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/15/2010 4:10:42 PM   
sprior


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Post #: 1833
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/15/2010 4:24:44 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
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Status: offline 		Uggh. I'm not so sanguine myself.

That was seriously gamey to send in singleton AK's and PC to "attack" Noumea harbor ahead of the BB's. The real purpose was to soak up ammo and torpedoes. But I have to admit the trick of following the BB TF with a cruiser TF worked beautifully. Once Warspite's TF gave up the field (after rough draw with the Jap BB's) the cruisers came in unmolested and did all the damage (including 2/3 of 24th Inf Regt.) Only about 5,000 tons of supply and most of the line infantry of 24th Regt got ashore (the support troops are now sport diving on the nice wrecks).

The Jap BB's at New Ullapool died in their boots and performed honorably. The kept Taffinder away from the airfield and support ships. Mississippi is burning like a Roman candle and the other three BB's are in mortal peril unless the Jap carriers find a distraction.

The Allied land based bombers refused to fly. I think it was weather but I will have to look at the replay.

In retrospect, it would have been better to leave the USN BB's at Noumea and absorb the Jap attack.....but I don't think they will go for a do-over.

Lord Admiral Sprior advocates sending in the carriers, which might well save the BB's.....but....

I think the Jap carrier TF's united near Tanna although they will have perhaps 100+ damaged planes and strike aircraft could be based at New Edninburgh (now 100% operational). It might work.

I need to look at the replay.


(in reply to Onime No Kyo)
Post #: 1834
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/15/2010 4:29:34 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

<1500 SPs.


I think it is a little more than that. Some moved downstream to New Perth and 1-2K probably was consumed in the faield Jap land attack at New Edinburgh. Still, not enough for the continued defence of New Scotland. Heap bad. Braves on New Scotland eat their own loincloths soon.

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Post #: 1835
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/15/2010 4:31:00 PM   
Mynok


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I'm with sprior. Excellent opportunity for your carriers right now.

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Post #: 1836
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/15/2010 4:32:39 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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Status: offline 		Did you address the gemeyness aspect with them?

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Post #: 1837
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/15/2010 4:40:49 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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23 Vals and Kates, 16 Zeroes. At this point. The Jap carriers could sail away with a strategic victory as New Scotland has not been adequately reinforced. I have a feeling they wont.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 1838
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/15/2010 4:47:16 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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Post #: 1839
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/15/2010 5:14:24 PM   
HMS Resolution


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

Did you address the gemeyness aspect with them?



Yes, that seems like it ought to be brought up. I don't recall the scout AKs being so decisive at Savo Island.

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Post #: 1840
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/15/2010 5:23:58 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HMS Resolution


quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

Did you address the gemeyness aspect with them?



Yes, that seems like it ought to be brought up. I don't recall the scout AKs being so decisive at Savo Island.


I agree. If they want to use a ruse de guerre and sacrifice some DDs as torpedo sponges I doubt anyone would have an issue. But AKs and DMs are way gamey.

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Post #: 1841
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/15/2010 5:51:41 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo


quote:

ORIGINAL: HMS Resolution


quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

Did you address the gemeyness aspect with them?



Yes, that seems like it ought to be brought up. I don't recall the scout AKs being so decisive at Savo Island.


I agree. If they want to use a ruse de guerre and sacrifice some DDs as torpedo sponges I doubt anyone would have an issue. But AKs and DMs are way gamey.


I agree. Very gamey and unsportsmanlike.

Have DC&H write a dunning letter, inscribe it on a baseball bat, and deliver it...

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Post #: 1842
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/15/2010 5:55:40 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo


quote:

ORIGINAL: HMS Resolution


quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

Did you address the gemeyness aspect with them?



Yes, that seems like it ought to be brought up. I don't recall the scout AKs being so decisive at Savo Island.


I agree. If they want to use a ruse de guerre and sacrifice some DDs as torpedo sponges I doubt anyone would have an issue. But AKs and DMs are way gamey.

I agree. You have legitimate grounds for griping on this issue.

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Post #: 1843
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/15/2010 6:03:11 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


I'm with sprior. Excellent opportunity for your carriers right now.

I don't understand why this is an ideal opportunity for the Allied carriers now. For a combined fleet (KB++) action with >6 carriers in theatre, losing a total of ~100 planes is insufficient to cripple their offensive firepower. There's still potentially a lot of bite there.

How many carriers do you think he's got in this fight? If >6, I respectfully argue that there are still major, potentially catastrophic risks for Allied engagement.

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Post #: 1844
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/15/2010 6:33:49 PM   
Mynok


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The allies have a numerical superiority with five fleet carriers. They have the additional advantage that the Jap carriers have BB targets to distract them, which are known carrier strike magnets.

Of course there is risk, but there is much to be gained.

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Post #: 1845
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/15/2010 7:13:46 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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Status: offline 		I agree with CB. Given the cluster that the surface aspect of this op has turned into, risking the carriers is unjustified. If they gave you a redo without all that circus trick stuff and you managed to fend off their SCTF, that's a different story.

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Post #: 1846
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/15/2010 10:20:24 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


The allies have a numerical superiority with five fleet carriers. They have the additional advantage that the Jap carriers have BB targets to distract them, which are known carrier strike magnets.

Of course there is risk, but there is much to be gained.

i'd go back and carefully watch the AAR, read it carefully and count how many torpedoes were used up... if they haven't replenished, the IJN CVs may be really low on fish, particularly after the number they expended on your AKs, etc.

EDIT: i counted something like 54 57 Kates launching (or using up) torpedoes... it would be (maybe) useful to know if they were all coming from carriers, or if from the land... and of course, if you had an estimate of prior carrier torpedo usage/status, this would help.

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 9/15/2010 10:59:45 PM >

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Post #: 1847
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/15/2010 11:53:35 PM   
Kwik E Mart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


The allies have a numerical superiority with five fleet carriers. They have the additional advantage that the Jap carriers have BB targets to distract them, which are known carrier strike magnets.

Of course there is risk, but there is much to be gained.

i'd go back and carefully watch the AAR, read it carefully and count how many torpedoes were used up... if they haven't replenished, the IJN CVs may be really low on fish, particularly after the number they expended on your AKs, etc.

EDIT: i counted something like 54 57 Kates launching (or using up) torpedoes... it would be (maybe) useful to know if they were all coming from carriers, or if from the land... and of course, if you had an estimate of prior carrier torpedo usage/status, this would help.



damn the torpedoes! full speed - er, um, sorry

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Post #: 1848
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/15/2010 11:55:37 PM   
Kwik E Mart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo


quote:

ORIGINAL: HMS Resolution


quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

Did you address the gemeyness aspect with them?



Yes, that seems like it ought to be brought up. I don't recall the scout AKs being so decisive at Savo Island.


I agree. If they want to use a ruse de guerre and sacrifice some DDs as torpedo sponges I doubt anyone would have an issue. But AKs and DMs are way gamey.

I agree. You have legitimate grounds for griping on this issue.


+1...i couldn't believe what i was reading when looking over the combat report...maybe this should be allowed, but should create a HUGE morale hit on all ships/boats anywhere near that action...

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(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 1849
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/16/2010 2:52:42 AM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo


quote:

ORIGINAL: HMS Resolution


quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

Did you address the gemeyness aspect with them?



Yes, that seems like it ought to be brought up. I don't recall the scout AKs being so decisive at Savo Island.


I agree. If they want to use a ruse de guerre and sacrifice some DDs as torpedo sponges I doubt anyone would have an issue. But AKs and DMs are way gamey.

I agree. You have legitimate grounds for griping on this issue.


+1...i couldn't believe what i was reading when looking over the combat report...maybe this should be allowed, but should create a HUGE morale hit on all ships/boats anywhere near that action...

No, this is taking advantage of the game mechanics (i.e. using up the opponents OP points in minor actions)... this is really gamey (imo).

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Post #: 1850
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/16/2010 3:09:17 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


The allies have a numerical superiority with five fleet carriers. They have the additional advantage that the Jap carriers have BB targets to distract them, which are known carrier strike magnets.

Of course there is risk, but there is much to be gained.

i'd go back and carefully watch the AAR, read it carefully and count how many torpedoes were used up... if they haven't replenished, the IJN CVs may be really low on fish, particularly after the number they expended on your AKs, etc.

EDIT: i counted something like 54 57 Kates launching (or using up) torpedoes... it would be (maybe) useful to know if they were all coming from carriers, or if from the land... and of course, if you had an estimate of prior carrier torpedo usage/status, this would help.

As a rough rule of thumb, most KB representatives have enough torpedo stores for two days of torpedo attacks. They've not exhausted their stores in one day, methinks.

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Post #: 1851
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/17/2010 4:35:50 PM   
HMS Resolution


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Status: offline 		So, what're the words, Thunderbirds?

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Post #: 1852
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/17/2010 5:24:49 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HMS Resolution

So, what're the words, Thunderbirds?


Looks like theyre either too pissed to post (the American pissed, not the British, although one never knows) or theyre still in deep negotiations.

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Post #: 1853
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/17/2010 11:54:15 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo


quote:

ORIGINAL: HMS Resolution

So, what're the words, Thunderbirds?


Looks like theyre either too pissed to post (the American pissed, not the British, although one never knows) or theyre still in deep negotiations.


No...the ball is in my court and I have been getting murdered at work. I am the hospital guy this week and when I finally get some GD sleep, stalker girl wakes me up asking for servicing.

I made myself watch the replay. It just made me mad.

1) The AK's and PB's which intrepidly attacked a historic vessel of the Royal Navy absolutely did deplete her main gun ammo. She fired "round" after "round" at the AK in particular. I don't now how many main battery broadsides correspond to one ammo point but it was really, really annoying. Even worse, several of the escort wasted their torps on the gnats. These weren't M&M Enterprises torpedoes either. These were RN and RNN torps and experienced crews from the fighting in the DEI. As far as I could tell not ONE Allied torp was fired in the fight with Nagato despite very short engagement ranges.

2) Warspite appeared to be winning the fight with Nagato which suffered many, many penetrating rounds. De Ruyter was crushed as she was lead vessel when the Japs crossed Palliser's "T". A Brit DD was also sunk, but the remaining force appeared quite capable except that Warspite fell way off in her firing frequency. I have a suspicion that Palliser had to call off the fight for lack of main gun ammo on Warspite. This intiated the whole sorry cascade of interception of the transports by the Jap cruisers and driving the survivors out from under air cover.

3) Of the two Jap cruisers in the follow-on force at Noumea, one was smoking like a Fiat with bad rings before the battle. Quite possibly, Warpsite could have taken them had she remained on station.

4) The fight at New Ullapool was a fair one in daylight. One Jap BB sunk, one Jap CA sunk and one Jap BB a severely damaged hulk that may sink. Mississippi will likely sink. The Japs died with their boots on and prevented a bombardment of the airfield...serious bummer.

5) About 25-30 of the Kate sorties were from New Ullapool...without torps interestingly. As for Jap torpedo reserves, I think his two carrier forces did rendezvous near Tanna and one will have had a full complement before the day's action. The bigger force expended some torps (30-40 maybe) in the attack on the Rust Bucket TF at Norfolk Is several days back. I estimate 5 Jap carriers on station to 3 US CV's and one RN CV. The US CV's flew off some of their Wildcats to Noumea but have an augmented complement of dive bombers. Most of the Wildcats cannot make it back to the carrier decks this turn.

6) The 17's at Noumea did not fly due to weather.

7) New Edinburgh and New Perth are 100% operational with enough supplies to support air action.

8) Mississippi is burning like a Roman candle but will be a useful pinata if she stays afloat. The other 3 BB's will survive if they can escape the air threat (big if).

9) There are another 12-13K of supplies aboard AK's 1-2 days out from New Edinburgh but there is no surface force to cover them.

On balance, I think it is best to try to get the BB's out by sprinting to Brisbane or Auckland or even North and then East to Funafuti. They might survive in New Edinburgh harbor but I doubt it. Mississippi will crawl toward New Edinburgh and become an oil slick Instead, I will switch some of the CAP over to escort, send the 17's back to Suva and reinforce New Edinburgh and New Perth with 100+ Army, Navy and Marine dive bombers. If the Jap carriers linger near New Scotland picking off BB's they may be in for a surprise.

I think a carrier duel would go badly for the Allies at this time with New Uallpool completely operational. Formidable already has flooding and the ratio of carriers is probably 4:5.


As for the gamey thing. I haven't talked it over with Lord Admiral Sprior but the redo idea seems unmanly. I will definitely suggest they not do that again.





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Post #: 1854
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/18/2010 12:03:15 AM   
Mynok


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3 CVs? I must have missed when you lost two.


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(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 1855
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/18/2010 12:15:12 AM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
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From: Southern California
Status: offline 		My daughter got a ticket for using her cellphone while driving (and talking to one of her friends about nothing important, no doubt)...$196 fricken US dollars for a first offense. This is another one of those hidden taxes.


Anyway, so I make her stay at home and wash windows...so far, so good....well, anyway she must have been watching History Chanel or something....she calls me at work...


Are you busy?

Well, yeah. What's up?

I'm Working on the windows.

Good.

They are really dirty.

Good. Is that what you called about?

No, I thought you might know if Osma bin Ladin is still alive?

What? ...Probably, but nobody is sure. And the other thing? <now convinced this had to be an ice-breaker question>

Oh, I'll just ask you later. You're busy. See you daddy, bye.


<What the Hell? I am pretty sure there is a wild summer party at the house>







< Message edited by Cap Mandrake -- 9/18/2010 12:31:32 AM >

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 1856
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/18/2010 12:19:35 AM   
Cap Mandrake


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From: Southern California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


3 CVs? I must have missed when you lost two.



Yes, one in the fight over Ambon in a "trade" for one CVL, one CVE a CA and the very nearly sunk, but apparently not close enough, Akagi which apparently survived a night cruiser battle and two torpedo hits.


The second was lost in an absolutely disastrous (for us) surprise raid on Sydney very early in the war. God that was painful.


< Message edited by Cap Mandrake -- 9/18/2010 12:22:55 AM >

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Post #: 1857
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/18/2010 12:34:24 AM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

My daughter got a ticket for using her cellphone while driving (and talking to one of her friends about nothing important, no doubt)...$196 fricken US dollars for a first offense. This is another one of those hidden taxes.


Anyway, so I make her stay at home and wash windows...so far, so good....well, anyway she must have been watching History Chanel or something....she calls me at work...


Are you busy?

Well, yeah. What's up?

I'm Working on the windows.

Good.

They are really dirty.

Good. Is that what you called about?

No, I thought you might know if Osma bin Ladin is still alive?

What? ...Probably, but nobody is sure. And the other thing? <now convinced this had to be an ice-breaker question>

Oh, I'll just ask you later. You're busy. See you daddy, bye.


<What the Hell? I am pretty sure there is a wild summer party at the house>


Make her marry the neighbor whose wife disappeared.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 1858
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/18/2010 12:37:40 AM   
Cap Mandrake


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Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

My daughter got a ticket for using her cellphone while driving (and talking to one of her friends about nothing important, no doubt)...$196 fricken US dollars for a first offense. This is another one of those hidden taxes.


Anyway, so I make her stay at home and wash windows...so far, so good....well, anyway she must have been watching History Chanel or something....she calls me at work...


Are you busy?

Well, yeah. What's up?

I'm Working on the windows.

Good.

They are really dirty.

Good. Is that what you called about?

No, I thought you might know if Osma bin Ladin is still alive?

What? ...Probably, but nobody is sure. And the other thing? <now convinced this had to be an ice-breaker question>

Oh, I'll just ask you later. You're busy. See you daddy, bye.


<What the Hell? I am pretty sure there is a wild summer party at the house>


Make her marry the neighbor whose wife disappeared.


I don't think she likes curry. But there is the dowry angle.


< Message edited by Cap Mandrake -- 9/18/2010 12:38:10 AM >

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 1859
RE: Op Consanguinity - 9/18/2010 12:44:35 AM   
Alfred

 

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Status: offline 		The dowry means you would have to pay. Another version of a hidden tax, just this time it is privatised.

Alfred

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 1860
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