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Opinions sought on Scen 1 vs. 2

 
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Opinions sought on Scen 1 vs. 2 - 1/8/2010 2:55:51 PM   
rader


Posts: 1238
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline 		Hi all,

About to start a new PBEM and I'm wondering whether scenario 1 or 2 is more appropriate for players of roughly equal skill levels (let's say Q-Ball and Cuttlefish as my guesstimate) to go the distance? I am aware of some of the differences (extra pilots/land units/etc.), and know that 1 may be more "historic", but which is overall more balanced and fair to both sides for human players duking it out over the long run?

Thanks,

Andrew
Post #: 1
RE: Opinions sought on Scen 1 vs. 2 - 1/8/2010 7:32:05 PM   
Caractacus

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 3/3/2009
Status: offline 		I too would appreciate replies on this.

We are two players of roughly equal ability who started a scenario2 (Hakoo Atchoo Blessyou) game a few weeks back. Although it's early I'm thinking we've made a mistake and should have gone with scenario 1.

The main reason is China. There seems to be absolutely nothing I can do to stop the Japanese taking the whole place. I understand they get skill level bonuses and supply bonuses. These seem to be deadly of themselves, with immediate first attempt shock attack victories no matter how big the defense. I didn't know the Japanese got extra units as well?

Anyways, for a game that takes a lot of time investment I want to see something historically plausible in return, and this doesn't seem to be it.

There was also an occassion where 60 Flying Tigers bounced 8 Tojos and got slaughtered. This was the only unit I had flying CAP in the whole game, and even they weren't good enough to do any damage at all to 8 measly enemy. (Maybe I shouldn't have written off a previous occassion when they bounced just 12 Zeroes and lost with casualties at 5 to 1 as a fluke.)

So I'm thinking the skill level and supply bonuses (and possibly extra units? oh god, really extra units too?) has made it into a fantasy game, which is fine, if you don't mind something different. But, FWIW, I'd avoid scenario 2 if you are of equal level and like history.

Be interested to see other's experiences though - as I said - it's still early on for me.

(in reply to rader)
Post #: 2
RE: Opinions sought on Scen 1 vs. 2 - 1/8/2010 7:59:39 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		I designed a lot of scen 2 so I am biased.

As an allied player I prefer Scen 2 (but I am biased) because it does allow the Japanese a little more latitude.

China is more or less identical in Scen 1 and 2 I think the japanese get three very vbery weak militia regiments to garriosn Hanoi and Haiphong but they are seriously weak.

Later on they get more LCU's but I would be amazed if you were seeing them in China

(in reply to Caractacus)
Post #: 3
RE: Opinions sought on Scen 1 vs. 2 - 1/8/2010 8:00:56 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		p.s it IS AHISTORICAL so if you want a pure Historical game play Scen 1 or maybe try Da Babes if you want to be adventurous

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 4
RE: Opinions sought on Scen 1 vs. 2 - 1/8/2010 8:02:17 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		The single most significant change thats not fluff about scen 2 is the extra resources supply and fuel that Japan gets give it more time before its economy implodes which does allow more lattitude for aggressive play

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 5
RE: Opinions sought on Scen 1 vs. 2 - 1/8/2010 8:02:42 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I'm playing Scenario Two as the Allies (against Miller) and I have all I can handle and more.  In part this is due to some problems (some of which have been addressed, some of which haven't).  I need another six months to a year of game time to tell whether Scenario Two gives the Japanese enough extra oomph to make the game more balanced, or whether it went too far.  I think it's the former.  If the sub wars weren't wacky I'd feel alot better about things.  Oh, you'll need a House Rule preventing use of Strategic Bombing in China/Burma/India until 1944.

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 6
RE: Opinions sought on Scen 1 vs. 2 - 1/8/2010 8:06:26 PM   
WITPPL


Posts: 290
Joined: 8/5/2009
Status: offline 		stay with You choice.
A Better "game".

I play scen 2 as a Japanese and oh boy my back have been kicked around China BIG time.

(in reply to Caractacus)
Post #: 7
RE: Opinions sought on Scen 1 vs. 2 - 1/8/2010 8:11:01 PM   
Caractacus

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 3/3/2009
Status: offline 		OK thanks Andy. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with scenario 2 Just that it might not be my cup of the proverbial.

And to be fair, we are both only 'intermediate' level players at best. My 'strategy' in China has simply been to group units into defensible terrain and set them to rest for as long as possible before the red tide hits. His 'strategy' is to walk up and shock attack anything he sees.

I thought that the biggest impact I've seen was increased skill levels, and have been thinking that they are responsible for most of the carnage?

Cheers.



(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 8
RE: Opinions sought on Scen 1 vs. 2 - 1/8/2010 8:14:54 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Not in China and exp levles for japanese units are unchanged

(in reply to Caractacus)
Post #: 9
RE: Opinions sought on Scen 1 vs. 2 - 1/8/2010 8:26:59 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline 		Scenario 01 is the 'official' campaign game.

Scenario 02 is the 'official' campaign game, with some enhancements to the Japanese Naval establishment. There are perhaps 50 more Japanese Marus, and perhaps 70 more Japanese warships, from CL down to MTB (mostly MTB, but some DD). These ships come into play from 1943 on, to assist the AI in those areas where it breaks down.

Scenario 06 is the 'official' campaign game, but with a December 8 start date. PH has happened, and things are developed as of the morning of December 8.

Scenario 07 is the 'official' campaign game defined in scenario 01, but with a 'quiet China' AI, defined by the ae007-01 thru 12.dat files. All other files are identical.

Scenario 08 is the 'official' campaign game defined in scenario 02, but with a 'quiet China' AI, defined by the ae008-01 thru 12.dat files. All other files are identical.

Scenario 09 is the 'official' campaign game defined in scenario 06, but with a 'quiet China' AI, defined by the ae009-01 thru 12.dat files. All other files are identical.

Suggest you start with 01 (or 07), or 06 (or 09). Scen 02 is kind of a "what if", but if that floats your boat, then scen 02 (or 08), depending on whether you want to deal deeply with China or not.

(in reply to Caractacus)
Post #: 10
RE: Opinions sought on Scen 1 vs. 2 - 1/8/2010 8:41:29 PM   
Smeulders

 

Posts: 1879
Joined: 8/9/2009
Status: offline 		http://hc-strategy.com/ae/wiki/index.php?title=Scenarios

Click on the title 'Hakko Ichiu' title if you want more details on the differences in ships and LCU. The other changes haven't been added yet.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 11
RE: Opinions sought on Scen 1 vs. 2 - 1/8/2010 8:46:07 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		It *is* more difficult as Japanese to keep things together late in the war-the home front production begins to weigh on you, the DEI starts being a liability and your resistance in the Central and SW Pacific begins getting more and more brittle. For 'equal' players, the slight additional benefits in Sc. 2 may offset the years of headache and difficulty to keep things on an even keel. If the IJN player was more experienced, then I'd say stick with historical Sc. 1. It's up to the allied player to be flexible to the needs of the Japanese one in this case.

_____________________________


(in reply to Smeulders)
Post #: 12
RE: Opinions sought on Scen 1 vs. 2 - 1/8/2010 9:00:03 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Smeulders thats good stuff

The only Port that start higher are Truck and Camranh Bay - makes re arming easier mostly

There are also additonal supplies and resources at Tokyo I believe and Harbin has some more disabled factories which can be expanded if required

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 13
RE: Opinions sought on Scen 1 vs. 2 - 1/8/2010 9:05:43 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		As an asside, my pbem buddy and I choose scen 2, BUT we allowed the brave US navy to have actual torpedoes instead of the historical crap they actually had. All in all I am pleased, although the early war air is brutal on either choice in favor of the Japs. If you are equal and want a challenge, the scen two US reliable torps counters a strong Jap start with GREAT performing subs... I think maybe too much but surely I am not complaining... without the reliable torps I would be probably following a much different strategy, rather than the very aggresive one now imployed... so I cannot directly answer the ?, But I would play 2 again with the settings we choose, also each have player defined upgrade paths... and historical withdrawels...(sp?)

" gimmi gimmi I need I need" .. Bill Murrey in  the  movie, : What About Bob"
no not those withdrawels... like the withdrawels one suffers from not getting their emails on time or a problem with the internet.. common now, you now what I am talking about! lol

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 14
RE: Opinions sought on Scen 1 vs. 2 - 1/9/2010 1:52:20 PM   
Caractacus

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 3/3/2009
Status: offline 		Good stuff.

However, I'm now a bit confused. When I read the scenario 2 briefing it seemed to me to say that the Japanese had increased experience levels and got help with recovery and supplies

But on checking the link it seems that they just get units (although Andy mentions they get help with the economy too).

Thanks!

(in reply to rader)
Post #: 15
RE: Opinions sought on Scen 1 vs. 2 - 1/9/2010 2:29:49 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		They did on release all the jap DD's had really high xp but we reverted to Scen 1 values in patch 1

I think a few of the air sqns are still a little higher at start than in scen 1 but would nee d to check again

(in reply to Caractacus)
Post #: 16
RE: Opinions sought on Scen 1 vs. 2 - 1/9/2010 4:12:44 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Andy .. u guys did such an awesome job.. I am now fully invested in multi turn/day pbem, but would not have nearly the stomach for this without the great, divergent ai in scen 1,THANK YOU!!! played the start about ten times, getting almost to 1943!


(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 17
RE: Opinions sought on Scen 1 vs. 2 - 1/9/2010 5:00:13 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Caractacus,

I would suggest your experience with the Tojos is probably indicative of some less than optimal altitude etc settings for your fighters... I am fighting over Manilla and my airgroups there are putting up a good fight. Overall I've shot down more Zeroes there than I've lost P-40s... and that's only in the first week of combat so my air force is at its weakest... Overall I've downed about 70 Zeroes in the first 7 days of combat.

I'm using individualised altitude settings to minimise manoeuvre differentials and it seems to be working. In a few weeks time I get the first planes which can actually outmanoeuvre the Japanese at certain altitudes and I'm expecting to transfer into better than 1:1 A2A exchange rates by the end of January 1942.

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 18
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