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RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/15/2010 5:54:58 PM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		So, what do you all think about this issue now? Seems like most people lean toward the Tojo over the Tony, because of the engine and the service rating. That's how I'm leaning too, but I'm curious whether the consensus has shifted.

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Post #: 31
RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/15/2010 7:45:08 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		I still produce both. They both have their uses.

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Post #: 32
RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/15/2010 11:35:00 PM   
Xxzard

 

Posts: 440
Joined: 9/28/2008
From: Arizona
Status: offline 		From what I have seen in this thread, I would go with the Tojo, but also keep oscars active too.

In one old witp game, I operated considerable numbers of Tonys, but that was when it was easier to change what was being built, and when there were no service ratings, which really come into play. The Tony has a service rating of three. From my allied experience, P38 F's (I believe) have the same rating. I have been able to use them every few days on sweeps or long range escort missions, but they aren't up to strength every day. If their base was under attack, I would not have a great deal of confidence in their ability to defend it, because too many would become damaged and inoperable.

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Post #: 33
RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/16/2010 4:01:09 PM   
Who Cares

 

Posts: 67
Joined: 2/2/2010
Status: offline 		Firepower. Oscar only has a 6 and the weakest Tojo/Tony is a 10 (almost double). Flying circles around enemy aircraft is wonderful but not so good if all you can do is damage them. Keeping pilots alive is something you need to start thinking about in mid-42 (actually from the start it's a good plan to think about it) so durability and armor is important which makes the early Tony a must. Build the Tojo when it comes out because its twice as effective as the Oscar, and build the Tony when it comes out (don't stop Tojo production), and pray for advances on the Frank. Silly not to build both Tony and Tojo. Sillier still to build the Oscar. The best Oscar is only an 8 firepower.

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Post #: 34
RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/16/2010 4:04:30 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I wouldnt' stop Oscar production. I did in WITP, because the Oscar was useless, but in AE it has it's uses.

The main reason to keep it is that it can escort Netties to a longer range than Tojos. A range of 12 means that you have a shot at Surface Bombardment TFs, and double shots at invasion fleets

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Post #: 35
RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/16/2010 9:35:54 PM   
Who Cares

 

Posts: 67
Joined: 2/2/2010
Status: offline 		Use M2 Zeros to escort your bombers. They have the longest range of anything resembling a fighter and 12 firepower to boot. I don't stop Oscar production either (until the Tojo is out anyway), after all they are better than the Nate, but neither will I expand it. From what I have seen of AE just intercepting a bombing strike greatly reduces its accuracy. Since the Tony is a maintenance hog, scatter them at level 1 and 2 airfields near where you want them to CAP (with adequate av support of course). You don't want to cluster a lot of planes at 1 airfield anyway, plus if you have rain at 1 field others will be open so you aren't risking an all or nothing CAP.

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Post #: 36
RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/16/2010 10:27:30 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I don't think you guys are paying attention to the service ratings. I think it is a big deal in AE and you should be looking at it in every plane you consider. Just ask any AFB about the trouble keeping brewster buffalos and P38 flying. It was not unusal for my early war carrier brewsters to have 20% of their compliment in the hangar after running 30-40% CAP for a few days. P-38 proves the same. It is not a great fighter to base at small front line bases-especially if the Japanese player has local air superiority. Tony, Frank, George, Jack all have a service rating of 3 (I think).

Tony vs Tojo, is a no brainer. I go for the Tojo. In my games it seems to handle hurricanes and P40s fairly well and it is about the only 2nd generation fighter that has a service rating of 1. Too bad about this as I think a lot of JFBs will opt for tojos and we won't see the tony much in our games. I sort of like the way the Tony looks.

Zero and Oscar soon become outclassed but it is hard to walk away from that 1 service rating. When Allied air power starts to crank up I don't think you want a bunch of broken planes sitting on the tarmac.

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Post #: 37
RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/16/2010 10:47:51 PM   
Athius

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 9/12/2009
Status: offline 		The oscar IIB seems quite potent to me though. Not a bad speed, armor and great agility

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Post #: 38
RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/16/2010 11:22:42 PM   
Who Cares

 

Posts: 67
Joined: 2/2/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I don't think you guys are paying attention to the service ratings. I think it is a big deal in AE and you should be looking at it in every plane you consider. Just ask any AFB about the trouble keeping brewster buffalos and P38 flying. It was not unusal for my early war carrier brewsters to have 20% of their compliment in the hangar after running 30-40% CAP for a few days. P-38 proves the same. It is not a great fighter to base at small front line bases-especially if the Japanese player has local air superiority. Tony, Frank, George, Jack all have a service rating of 3 (I think).

Tony vs Tojo, is a no brainer. I go for the Tojo. In my games it seems to handle hurricanes and P40s fairly well and it is about the only 2nd generation fighter that has a service rating of 1. Too bad about this as I think a lot of JFBs will opt for tojos and we won't see the tony much in our games. I sort of like the way the Tony looks.

Zero and Oscar soon become outclassed but it is hard to walk away from that 1 service rating. When Allied air power starts to crank up I don't think you want a bunch of broken planes sitting on the tarmac.


Saw that. Whats the difference if 20% of your planes are down for maintenance if you have 30% on rest? None. No difference at all, so I think you are over prioritizing the maintenance. As I said, put them on level 1 and 2 airfields close to where you want their CAP and you really don't have to worry about them getting bombed either. Maybe 1 but for sure better to put 4 groups at 4 different bases than leave them all in 1 kettle to get slammed.

And as I already said the M2 Zeros range is the selling point of that plane that will keep it in production into '44 at least in my game world.

< Message edited by Who Cares -- 3/16/2010 11:23:32 PM >

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Post #: 39
RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/17/2010 4:38:51 AM   
mikemike

 

Posts: 501
Joined: 6/3/2004
From: a maze of twisty little passages, all different
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Carl Rugenstein

I like a mix of Oscars and Tojos. Each has some advantages that make it very useful to use them in a mission specific manner. Hands down though for killing allied aircraft my preference is the Tojo. With it's speed and heavier firepower it can allow the IJA to compete in the air until better models come along. Also, a big advantage is that the Tojo, Oscar as well as the Zero all use the Nakajima Ha-35 engine. Very useful to use the heck out of these designs until the next generation engine Nakajima Ha-45 come available.


The Shoki ("Tojo") didn't use the Ha-35 Sakae like the Oscar or Zero, but the Ha-34 like the Ki-49 Helen. Major difference. This should be corrected.

On the armament, I quote a post on aviastar.org by Hiroyuki Takeuchi:

quote:


Also, the widespread error in subtype defintion should be corrected. The IIb is armed by two 12.7mm nose guns only and could carry two 40mm cannons in the wings as "special equipment". The IIc was armed with four 12.7mm guns. No 20mm guns were ever fitted in any production Ki44s.


Concerning the Ho-301 cannon that is so admired by other posters, it fires a heavy and probably very effective projectile, but has a muzzle velocity of only 245 m/s (about 800 fps) which is half that of the MK108 which was heavily criticized for having too short an effective range when attacking US bombers, so I think the Ho-301 with its effective range of 150 m, 500 feet, would have forced the fighter to close to an altogether unhealthily short distance with the target, probably the reason why this weapon wasn't used in later versions. A conventional 30mm cannon would have served better (and weighed only a third). Both the Ki-61 (especially the aircraft that were armed with MG151/20s) and most versions of the Zero were actually better armed than any Ki-44.

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Post #: 40
RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/17/2010 6:15:07 AM   
Klahn

 

Posts: 184
Joined: 5/8/2007
Status: offline 		You beat me to the punch. While I wasn't sure what engine it used, I know it was a bomber engine and certainly not the same as the Zero or Oscar.

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Post #: 41
RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/17/2010 8:41:38 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Who Cares

Use M2 Zeros to escort your bombers. They have the longest range of anything resembling a fighter and 12 firepower to boot. I don't stop Oscar production either (until the Tojo is out anyway), after all they are better than the Nate, but neither will I expand it. From what I have seen of AE just intercepting a bombing strike greatly reduces its accuracy. Since the Tony is a maintenance hog, scatter them at level 1 and 2 airfields near where you want them to CAP (with adequate av support of course). You don't want to cluster a lot of planes at 1 airfield anyway, plus if you have rain at 1 field others will be open so you aren't risking an all or nothing CAP.



try escorting IJAAF bombers with IJNAF fighters. My opponent has tried to do that nearly two weeks in a row in Australia but fails day after day. All you see every day is "fighters failing to link up with the bombers" and then the fighters go in alone on a sweep to be followed by the bombers alone doing their bombing. If this is WAD I donīt know. If Navy fighters canīt escort Army bombers and vice versa then this perhaps would have been one major thing to note in the manual. Perhaps itīs in there, I havenīt seen it.

And I donīt know if itīs true for the Allied too.

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Post #: 42
RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/17/2010 8:43:45 AM   
Who Cares

 

Posts: 67
Joined: 2/2/2010
Status: offline 		Don't need the Zero to escort army bombers. Army bombers don't have a range of 14+ hexes like Nells/Bettys do.

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Post #: 43
RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/17/2010 8:44:37 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I don't think you guys are paying attention to the service ratings. I think it is a big deal in AE and you should be looking at it in every plane you consider. Just ask any AFB about the trouble keeping brewster buffalos and P38 flying. It was not unusal for my early war carrier brewsters to have 20% of their compliment in the hangar after running 30-40% CAP for a few days. P-38 proves the same. It is not a great fighter to base at small front line bases-especially if the Japanese player has local air superiority. Tony, Frank, George, Jack all have a service rating of 3 (I think).

Tony vs Tojo, is a no brainer. I go for the Tojo. In my games it seems to handle hurricanes and P40s fairly well and it is about the only 2nd generation fighter that has a service rating of 1. Too bad about this as I think a lot of JFBs will opt for tojos and we won't see the tony much in our games. I sort of like the way the Tony looks.

Zero and Oscar soon become outclassed but it is hard to walk away from that 1 service rating. When Allied air power starts to crank up I don't think you want a bunch of broken planes sitting on the tarmac.




Iīm using P-38s for two and a halve months already and have not had a problem with them. 50% Cap is no problem at all if there is enough air support. Same goes for my service rating 4 heavy bombers like the B-17, I keep them flying all the time. I have not had a problem with maintaining any of my (Allied aircraft). This may be different if you donīt have enough airsupport (surely a bigger problem for the Japanese). What killed my P-38 isnīt their service rating but the pilots that canīt fly 50% Cap over a longer period than two days without having their morale pummeled, but thatīs a different story.

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Post #: 44
RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/17/2010 8:48:52 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Who Cares

Don't need the Zero to escort army bombers. Army bombers don't have a range of 14+ hexes like Nells/Bettys do.



well, I was answering to your statement: Use M2 Zeros to escort your bombers

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Post #: 45
RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/17/2010 10:31:24 AM   
Who Cares

 

Posts: 67
Joined: 2/2/2010
Status: offline 		No problem, but my statement was in response to Q Ball and he was talking about using Oscars to escort "Netties" (ie Navy bombers). An Allied game I have going right now the Jap player has been raiding Akyab on a regular basis with Sallys escorted by Zeros, so I'm not all together convinced you are right though about the army navy thing. I would guess you have other factors interfering with your escorts (like leader, morale, stacking, altitude or some such).

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Post #: 46
RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/17/2010 10:56:50 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Who Cares

No problem, but my statement was in response to Q Ball and he was talking about using Oscars to escort "Netties" (ie Navy bombers). An Allied game I have going right now the Jap player has been raiding Akyab on a regular basis with Sallys escorted by Zeros, so I'm not all together convinced you are right though about the army navy thing. I would guess you have other factors interfering with your escorts (like leader, morale, stacking, altitude or some such).



not my escorts, my opponentīs ones. Alt seems not to be the factor though as escorts and bombers are at 6.000ft

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Post #: 47
RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/17/2010 11:53:31 AM   
undercovergeek

 

Posts: 1526
Joined: 11/21/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		as long as AFBs are complaining Tojos are kicking their ass - then thats what im building - heard no tales of an uber Tony, only uber Tojo

< Message edited by undercovergeek -- 3/17/2010 1:40:03 PM >

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Post #: 48
RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/17/2010 10:01:27 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I don't think you guys are paying attention to the service ratings. I think it is a big deal in AE and you should be looking at it in every plane you consider. Just ask any AFB about the trouble keeping brewster buffalos and P38 flying. It was not unusal for my early war carrier brewsters to have 20% of their compliment in the hangar after running 30-40% CAP for a few days. P-38 proves the same. It is not a great fighter to base at small front line bases-especially if the Japanese player has local air superiority. Tony, Frank, George, Jack all have a service rating of 3 (I think).

Tony vs Tojo, is a no brainer. I go for the Tojo. In my games it seems to handle hurricanes and P40s fairly well and it is about the only 2nd generation fighter that has a service rating of 1. Too bad about this as I think a lot of JFBs will opt for tojos and we won't see the tony much in our games. I sort of like the way the Tony looks.

Zero and Oscar soon become outclassed but it is hard to walk away from that 1 service rating. When Allied air power starts to crank up I don't think you want a bunch of broken planes sitting on the tarmac.




Iīm using P-38s for two and a halve months already and have not had a problem with them. 50% Cap is no problem at all if there is enough air support. Same goes for my service rating 4 heavy bombers like the B-17, I keep them flying all the time. I have not had a problem with maintaining any of my (Allied aircraft). This may be different if you donīt have enough airsupport (surely a bigger problem for the Japanese). What killed my P-38 isnīt their service rating but the pilots that canīt fly 50% Cap over a longer period than two days without having their morale pummeled, but thatīs a different story.


Well, that sort of is my point. They are fine when you have great bases and support-and air superiority or at least parity. But when the 2nd generation fighters show up for Japan then any fighter with a service rating of 3 will be at a disadvantage due to Allied numbers. You know how it goes. High sweep with lightings, corsairs, or P 47s, rinse and repeat and then send in the heavies to close the airfield. Any damaged planes caught on the ground might never leave.


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Post #: 49
RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/17/2010 10:22:40 PM   
CarnageINC


Posts: 2208
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From: Rapid City SD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

as long as AFBs are complaining Tojos are kicking their ass - then thats what im building - heard no tales of an uber Tony, only uber Tojo


I'll go with you on that

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Post #: 50
RE: Tojo or Tony - 3/17/2010 10:31:53 PM   
CarnageINC


Posts: 2208
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: Rapid City SD
Status: offline 		If you choose to build Tony's, which one do you go for?  It appears they show up within 4 months of each other at the start of Nov 43.  Is it worth R&D to try and make one of them appear sooner than the rest?

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