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Garrisoned Depots - 2/1/2010 5:14:52 PM   
Spartan07

 

Posts: 335
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: UK
Status: offline 		Guys,

What is the position on garrisoned depots in our game? For sure a garrisoned depot stops movement. In almost all the Pbem games I have played this has been used to screen main troops. Now im being accused of gamey tactics.

Please confirm if this is in the game or a bug.

If not a bug should it be in the game?

Thanks,

Mike - Nego

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Mike - Nego
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RE: Garrisoned Depots - 2/1/2010 5:37:06 PM   
ndrose

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 10/13/2006
Status: offline 		As I understand it, it's a deviation from the original rules. A depot's garrison should protect the depot only--prevent it from being overrun by an enemy--but should not be able to stop the movement of an enemy that wants to pass through the area. In that respect it's like a city garrison, which makes sense, because it can't move. The depot is in one place, and the area is large.

Some games have adopted a house rule to try to address this, but it's tricky because you have to be able to garrison your depots, and it's hard to write a rule that allows all legitimate uses. It would be better if this were simply recoded to match the original rules.

(in reply to Spartan07)
Post #: 2
RE: Garrisoned Depots - 2/1/2010 5:44:08 PM   
Spartan07

 

Posts: 335
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: UK
Status: offline 		Thats my feeling. If this rule was left in the coding then why? There must have been a lot of discussion for Marshall to do it this way and for us all to accept it up to now.




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Mike - Nego

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RE: Garrisoned Depots - 2/1/2010 6:27:38 PM   
Ted1066


Posts: 214
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Status: offline 		It would be great to hear from Marshall on this issue as to why it was coded the way it was because this is a particularly egregious rules deviation. Its something I had not noticed in the game up to this point, but now that its reared its head it can definitely be a game changer.

Marshall, was this intentional or an oversight?

Cheers,

Ted

(in reply to Spartan07)
Post #: 4
RE: Garrisoned Depots - 2/1/2010 6:32:37 PM   
ndrose

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 10/13/2006
Status: offline 		I see now that it's already listed in Mantis (#597) as assigned, but not yet fixed. So presumably it will eventually revert to the original rule.

(in reply to Ted1066)
Post #: 5
RE: Garrisoned Depots - 2/1/2010 9:04:16 PM   
bresh

 

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ndrose

As I understand it, it's a deviation from the original rules. A depot's garrison should protect the depot only--prevent it from being overrun by an enemy--but should not be able to stop the movement of an enemy that wants to pass through the area. In that respect it's like a city garrison, which makes sense, because it can't move. The depot is in one place, and the area is large.

Some games have adopted a house rule to try to address this, but it's tricky because you have to be able to garrison your depots, and it's hard to write a rule that allows all legitimate uses. It would be better if this were simply recoded to match the original rules.




Ponder, im sure it stood as fixed(changed) at one point around 1.06? Before that it was a feature(not bug). I do belive i seen corps pass at some point. And garrisoned-depots only cut supply but not movement.
But garrisoned-depots was designed to stop movement when EIANW was released, i remember reading that rule in 2007, dont players read the manual anymore ?

Anyway the orginial(EIA) rules also had special rules for garrisoned depots, and corps in provinces with city, about moving into city, same was for corps if enemies came. So in fairness this problem goes both ways.

Release notes 1.06
o 1.06.00
X Fixed: Garrisoned Depot Screened



Manual EIANW, basic & 1.07 manual :
10.4.6 Moving Into an Enemy Depot Area
Garrisoned Depot Area
If an enemy depot is garrisoned, the phasing player must halt movement and fight the garrison.

So untill another patch says its fixed/changed including in the manual, i would see this as working as designed.
Hopefully a patch(change) would work how the 1.06 (change) was intended.
Edit
(bit like cossaks , but without movement or withdraw option, though it would be cool to have withdraw into city possible for the garrisons)

Regards
Bresh

< Message edited by bresh -- 2/2/2010 2:27:41 PM >

(in reply to ndrose)
Post #: 6
RE: Garrisoned Depots - 2/2/2010 3:04:58 AM   
Dancing Bear

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		Are not garrisoned depots in this version of the game, the equivalent of the very popular, trival combat rule, except with stationary troops?

(in reply to bresh)
Post #: 7
RE: Garrisoned Depots - 2/4/2010 1:34:55 PM   
Spartan07

 

Posts: 335
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: UK
Status: offline 		BUMP...

Marshall what was the tinking with the rule adopted the way it was. If people are going to make house rules then we need to fully understand the original intent and any other events that a house rule may affect.

Thanks,
Mike - Nego


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Mike - Nego

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Post #: 8
RE: Garrisoned Depots - 2/4/2010 4:04:21 PM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline 		Nego, what version are you using?

(in reply to Spartan07)
Post #: 9
RE: Garrisoned Depots - 2/4/2010 4:18:50 PM   
Spartan07

 

Posts: 335
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: UK
Status: offline 		Version1.07.02....

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Mike - Nego

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Post #: 10
RE: Garrisoned Depots - 2/4/2010 10:57:57 PM   
Ashtar

 

Posts: 160
Joined: 12/6/2007
Status: offline 		Guys, one quick comment (I am having this discussion with Mike over one of our games):

Marshall obviously misinterpreted this rule from EIA, so it is more a rule deviation
than a bug.

However, think to its implication: with garrisoned depots you can slow down enemy movement in your
controlled territory to 1 area per turn without paying any political point
price (screening corps cost 1pp each if attacked, and anyhow you do not
have so many of them to use, since you can buy them only at eco, while
depots can be recycled every turn).

So this deviation is going to have a BIG impact on game mechanics if
exploited. I think it can potentially make it much worse.



(in reply to Spartan07)
Post #: 11
RE: Garrisoned Depots - 2/4/2010 11:46:07 PM   
bresh

 

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Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ashtar

Guys, one quick comment (I am having this discussion with Mike over one of our games):

Marshall obviously misinterpreted this rule from EIA, so it is more a rule deviation
than a bug.

However, think to its implication: with garrisoned depots you can slow down enemy movement in your
controlled territory to 1 area per turn without paying any political point
price (screening corps cost 1pp each if attacked, and anyhow you do not
have so many of them to use, since you can buy them only at eco, while
depots can be recycled every turn).

So this deviation is going to have a BIG impact on game mechanics if
exploited. I think it can potentially make it much worse.





I dont think its a major impact, since its only 1 of many.
Many of the other changed mechanincs even balance out this one.

Compared to EIA, i can quickly think of a few.

The ability to use garrisoned depots to cut supply for corps passing.
The ever returning problems with non-combined movement for allies. what we have is still far from the balance combined movement had/Especially that you need both allies forces to be under same command for them to reinforce eachother, meaning you are limited by 1 powers depots.
Austrias major reduction of depots (7 instead of 9).(roughly 20% less depots)..
Ability to convert empty enemy-depots to own in supply chain.
Ability to move garrison(sometimes depot to) into city/port if enemy moved into the area they where placed.
Corps not able to work as port-garrioson.

Regards
Bresh

< Message edited by bresh -- 2/4/2010 11:48:51 PM >

(in reply to Ashtar)
Post #: 12
RE: Garrisoned Depots - 2/5/2010 1:13:31 AM   
Ashtar

 

Posts: 160
Joined: 12/6/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I dont think its a major impact, since its only 1 of many.

Bresh, I know there are many game deviations.

What I argue is that this can be pretty major, since you can use it
to reduce all enemy movement inside your controlled territory to
one area per turn without any pp's loss just by placing swarm of depots.
This is indeed major (only Austria can stop invading forces at the first
area, and only once and iside home nation, thanks to insurrection corps).
THIS IS A HUGE CHANGE IN STRATEGY

Alternatively, it can be used to grant safe escape from the faster moving French
corps to any other major power corp.

Don't you find it too severe as a change?

(in reply to bresh)
Post #: 13
RE: Garrisoned Depots - 2/5/2010 1:17:46 AM   
Cunctator

 

Posts: 181
Joined: 3/26/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I agree with Ashtar.
Clouds of garrisoned depots can stop any advance or blitz inside any home nation.
It is a dangerous rule and its abuse is very easy.
I remember that it was solved some patches ago and now it is reborn.
Please Marshall do something.
C.

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(in reply to Ashtar)
Post #: 14
RE: Garrisoned Depots - 2/5/2010 2:04:16 AM   
bresh

 

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline 		I do agree, game might be better once, garrisoned-depots again work more like non.moving cossaks, with regard to not stopping enemy.corps, but still cut supply lines.

But for the screening corps thing to be playable, we need to remove the quick-combat for single corps then..
Screening corps had more than 1 purpose in EIA, and they lost their value due to the quick combat, making screen-corps to fragile compared to EIA(like when one screens with more corps, but stand behind able to reinforce such battles)


Regards
Bresh

< Message edited by bresh -- 2/5/2010 6:17:02 AM >

(in reply to Cunctator)
Post #: 15
RE: Garrisoned Depots - 2/5/2010 1:03:56 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Can someone email me a save game of where this is happening and I will take a look...


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Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



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Post #: 16
RE: Garrisoned Depots - 2/9/2010 3:10:18 AM   
StCyr

 

Posts: 148
Joined: 7/2/2003
Status: offline
quote:

Marshall obviously misinterpreted this rule from EIA, so it is more a rule deviation than a bug.


So funny- you only need to play one game of EiA to know that it does not work the way Matrix EiA interpreted it.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 17
RE: Garrisoned Depots - 2/9/2010 8:58:27 AM   
fvianello


Posts: 534
Joined: 8/6/2002
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Marshall, just place a garrisoned depot somewhere, then try to move past it with an enemy corps; You'll find out that the corps has to stop as soon as it enters in the area with the depot.

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Post #: 18
RE: Garrisoned Depots - 2/9/2010 6:08:31 PM   
DCWhitworth


Posts: 676
Joined: 12/15/2007
From: Norwich, England
Status: offline 		Since there is a bit of dispute as to whether this 'rule' is good or not I think the best solution is to change it so that garrisoned depots *don't* stop movement then you can create a house rule if you want.

And garrisoned depots are *much* more powerful than screening corps simply because there are so much more of them and they are easily replaceable. If you kill a corps it's gone for three months, kill a depot and it can be back next turn.

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Regards
David

(in reply to fvianello)
Post #: 19
RE: Garrisoned Depots - 2/9/2010 6:19:49 PM   
bresh

 

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline

Problem with screening corps now, is you can not play the tactics where you put couple screening corps next to your main army, but actually 1 is not just screening, but can fight, only appears to "screen", then when enemy attacks the corps, your mainforce could reinforce. While the attacker had split his force.
Nor can you use the screening corps to gather info on enemy composition.

Im not saying the current way is perfect, but it actually helps balance the game.
I know i would not play a game witch had a unbalanced houserule regarding garrisoned depots.
They should always cut supply, if garrioned.

As far as i seen, most screening depots are used mostly against France. But France still has the upper hand, when there is no combined movement.
The allies cant split their force into 2 adjant forces and use different nationality depots to move ahead, and if attacked reinforce each other.
Since you can only reinforce if under control of the same MP.(Maybe fix this to !).



Regards
Bresh


< Message edited by bresh -- 2/9/2010 6:22:57 PM >

(in reply to DCWhitworth)
Post #: 20
RE: Garrisoned Depots - 2/10/2010 12:48:51 AM   
Ted1066


Posts: 214
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWhitworth

Since there is a bit of dispute as to whether this 'rule' is good or not I think the best solution is to change it so that garrisoned depots *don't* stop movement then you can create a house rule if you want.

And garrisoned depots are *much* more powerful than screening corps simply because there are so much more of them and they are easily replaceable. If you kill a corps it's gone for three months, kill a depot and it can be back next turn.


PLUS no PP cost when using garrisoned depots as screens <-- BIG bonus to defender

Cheers,

Ted

(in reply to DCWhitworth)
Post #: 21
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