RE: What if Japan had not attack the US?

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RE: What if Japan had not attack the US? - 2/9/2010 11:43:33 PM

Mistmatz

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...

the US would have had a hard time to get into WW2?

EDIT: Damn, I'm too slow.

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Post #: 31

RE: What if Japan had not attack the US? - 2/10/2010 1:32:35 AM

wdolson

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From: Near Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

I thought that the 'America First' movement still had great support in the uS in late-41.� After all it was fronted by Charles Lindenburgh, the great US-aviator and trail-blazer who was very popular (and whom woudl also always get the public sympathy vote).
Funnily enough after PH,� Lindenburgh volunteered for the USAAF but his application was quite abruptly and rudely turned down by Roosevelt, who told him to get lost in no uncertain terms.� Lindenburgh then eventually quietly joined the USAAF on his own and flew a few combat missions (I think he was in� P38 but I might be wrong),� shooting down at least one EA before Washington realised he was there and called him home - he still might be a pariah to the powers that be but they had no wish to have him KIA or MIA...

The America First movement was waning by late 1941, but they still had some influence. Charles Lindberg was turned down when he tried to join the military, but he became a factory rep and went out in the field to help USAAF pilots get more out of their airplanes. He did fly some unauthorized missions with the 5th AF in P-38s and there are rumors he shot down a few planes. George Kenny hit the roof when he found out.

When Lindberg was flying with the 5th AF, he always returned to base with much more fuel than anyone else. When asked his trick he explained that he would lean out the mixture to the engines to the bare minimum to stay airborne when cruising. This was very hard on the life of the engine, but almost doubled the range. When the technique was adopted, 5th AF P-38s went from flying 5 hour missions to 8 hour missions. More fatiguing for the pilots, but it started to run up the scores of the P-38 pilots who were surprising Japanese deep in enemy territory.

Bill

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Post #: 32

RE: What if Japan had not attack the US? - 2/10/2010 1:24:08 PM

xj900uk

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Thanks, that is interesting about how he managed to eek out the range of the P38's by altering the fuel-burn mix. Wonder what the ground crews who had the service the engines thought of that trick though...

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Post #: 33

RE: What if Japan had not attack the US? - 2/10/2010 3:56:42 PM

mdiehl

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Probably they thought "This motor don't look so good. Hey! I got an engine just like that one right over here......"

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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

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Post #: 34

RE: What if Japan had not attack the US? - 2/11/2010 1:30:57 PM

xj900uk

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Hmmm, I've always thought that the US could have made more of Lindenburgh in WWII, after all the guy was brave enough to admit he had been mistaken in the run-up to PH (a charge which could have been levelled at many guys in intelligence, the military and Congress), and he was a great flyer and experienced pilot. The USAAF could have benefited from his intelligence and expertise long before they (unofficially) did...

(in reply to mdiehl)

Post #: 35

RE: What if Japan had not attack the US? - 2/11/2010 2:00:36 PM

morganbj

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Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

Hmmm, I've always thought that the US could have made more of Lindenburgh in WWII,� after all the guy was brave enough to admit he had been mistaken in the run-up to PH (a charge which could have been levelled at many guys in intelligence,� the military and Congress),� and he was a great flyer and experienced pilot.� The USAAF could have benefited from his intelligence and expertise long before they (unofficially) did...

Sounds like a cross between the Hindenburg and Lindbergh.

(in reply to xj900uk)

Post #: 36

RE: What if Japan had not attack the US? - 2/11/2010 2:02:49 PM

xj900uk

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You know who I meant!!!

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Post #: 37

RE: What if Japan had not attack the US? - 2/11/2010 3:44:53 PM

Blackhorse

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Costello's War in the Pacific says that at the time Roosevelt was informed Pearl Harbor had been attacked, he had a draft on his desk, asking Congress for a DOW vs. Japan, in response to (what Rossevelt expected to be) a Japanese attack on Malaya and the DEI. I have not seen this claim in other sources.

Even if true, it is doubtful that Roosevelt would have convinced Congress to approve a DOW with anything less than a direct attack by the Japanese on US soil or ships. This is the same Congress that in July, approved the continuation of the military draft by only a single vote -- after a great deal of arm-twisting by FDR.

Herwin may be right -- perhaps FDR could have manufactured an incident like the 'Gulf of Tonkin' to get America into the war. But under those circumstances the war effort would not have been supported by a fully mobolized industry or population. In the War Plan Orange exercises, the Navy planners assumed that they would have about 2 years to defeat Japan in a war, before the loss of public support at home forced an armistice.

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(in reply to xj900uk)

Post #: 38

RE: What if Japan had not attack the US? - 2/12/2010 1:43:09 PM

xj900uk

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Agreed 100% A pre-emptive strike on PH (even though US intelligence should have known it was coming) united the USA like nothing else on earth and made everyone including jo public determined to see it through right to the bitter end, no matter how long it took.
Yamamoto knew this, unlike most of the Japanese war-planners and strategists. In a letter to his sister he wrote : (translation varies slightly in a few texts)
'Those fools in Tokyo don't know what they're contemplating. A limited war with America, making huge early gains then sitting back and demanding a soft ceasfire? They should realise that the only time they can dictate terms to the Americans is when our troops are marching up the steps of the White House. And even then, I doubt they'd listen'.

(in reply to Blackhorse)

Post #: 39

RE: What if Japan had not attack the US? - 2/14/2010 7:31:59 AM

Cmdrcain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

If Japan hadn't attacked the US, then WiTP-AE wouldn't exist and no one would be here in this forum asking or answering these types of questions.

I don't think it would have mattered, Roosevelt wanted into the war, eventually the US would have joined the fight, IMO.

WITP AE would exist

The war simply would been different
If Japan had not hit USA... but Britain and DEI, we would have accelerated things, built up midway/wake/guam/phillipines and Pearl would been on constant war alert

Do also recall that japan attacked USA cause we had shutoff scrape steel and other resources
we likely would have total embargoed anything to japan so would been close to a declared war
so Japan would have hit USa eventually even if at first they took malaya and DEI...
It just would not have been a surprise attack... and we would have built up..

A more interesting question would be what if japan attacked USa and germany had NOT declared on USA... US citizens would been in a rage and not wanted anything to do with the "european" problem...so possiable WITP would been a shorter war with all effort of USA aimed at japan alone..

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Post #: 40

RE: What if Japan had not attack the US? - 2/14/2010 7:47:59 AM

Cmdrcain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

The unprovoked attack also made American's thirst for vengeance legitimate and stoked the national animus needed to wage unrestricted warfare against a whole people.

yup

And why if germany had not declared war... that same would have made it a japan first and only thing..

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Noise? What Noise? It's sooooo quiet and Peaceful!

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Post #: 41

RE: What if Japan had not attack the US? - 2/14/2010 7:59:31 AM

Cmdrcain

Posts: 1161
Joined: 8/21/2000
From: Rebuilding FLA, Busy Repairing!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

Agreed 100%� A pre-emptive strike on PH (even though US intelligence should have known it was coming) united the USA like nothing else on earth and made everyone including jo public determined to see it through right to the bitter end, no matter how long it took.
Yamamoto knew this,� unlike most of the Japanese war-planners and strategists.� In a letter to his sister he wrote :� (translation varies slightly in a few texts)
'Those fools in Tokyo don't know what they're contemplating.� A limited war with America,� making huge early gains then sitting back and demanding a soft ceasfire?� They should realise that the only time they can dictate terms to the Americans is when our troops are marching up the steps of the White House.� And even then, I doubt they'd listen'.