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RE: The Government of Japan regrets to inform... - 2/20/2010 5:16:20 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Michael, you are right on Malaya. I would ONLY land a few guys at Khota to clear the airstrip, and send a small force to Alor Star, just to keep the pressure on.

I would land more than a division at Mersing. I would land everyone you can lay your hands on to get there. A prudent Allied player will move all the Aussies there turn one, so that's at least 2 divisions you need to overwhelm them. I am not sure what your start is, if you neutralize Force Z turn one, this is alot easier, but if you don't, then you have to keep BBs in the Mersing hex while you unload. This is risky, because they will exposed to Torp planes from Singapore, so make sure you have piles of CAP. Usually the Vildebeests aren't enough to sink a BB, but only a torp or two will put them in the yard for months.

But I would still go Mersing, it will shorten the campaign by a couple weeks at least.

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Post #: 121
The Government of Japan regrets to inform... - 2/20/2010 5:24:03 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I think Damian should be our OFFICIAL Economics Minister!  We should quadruple his pay.

Bk hits the nail on the head as to Altitude.  The Allies requested this rule to better reflect the improvement of High-Altitude performance within Allied fighters as well as the learning curve of how to defeat the Zero.  This makes great sense to me and I like the idea because it does reflect the learning curve in fighting the Zero. 

How does this rule work for 4EB?  I'm not sure.  Michael--They should probably be excluded and allowed to fly higher.  What do you think?

It is the Burma HRs that shocked me!  Have people read those?  What do you think about them?


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Post #: 122
RE: The Government of Japan regrets to inform... - 2/20/2010 5:33:30 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Qball sounds solid in his commentary here.  We run more of a risk in landing at Mersing, however, no matter how quickly we take the base, it WILL shorten the campaign to clear the peninsula.  As to shipping vulnerability, we will have LBA CAP plus 3 CV's worth of PUNCH to help.

What are your final landing forces hitting the beach there Michael?


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Post #: 123
RE: The Government of Japan regrets to inform... - 2/20/2010 6:21:40 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Ok, more info on the Mersing invasion. As mentioned previously, the WHOLE 5th Division will land at D+5. The 2 x Rgts of the 18th Division that are landing at Kuantan on D+3 can be reloaded and moved down here. 2 of 3 Infantry Rgt of the 56th Division are already pre-loaded at Hiroshima and will be headed this way from Turn 1. I just checked and I will divide that TF into 2 parts, the slower ships (5 xAKLs with speed 10 or 11 into 1 TF and the rest in the other). Most of the combat power is in the faster transports. The 33rd Division will be broken into 3 x Rgt and loaded at Nagasaki as transports arrive.

Since this is a mod, there are other factors to consider. I have 27 Zeros at start, plus another 27 plane Daitai at Bangkok that only has 2 planes and pilots. I have pulled out what I can from Japan based Chutai/Daitai pilots wise, so this will make it have about 1/2 experienced pilots and the rest rookies once I transfer them from Reserve Command. Add in 3 CV worth of planes. If this isn't enough, there are the Oscar and the Oscar Ic have been used to upgrade a 18 plane group. I will have over 150 Oscars and Zeros available before a foot hits the beach at Mersing. They can form Force Z at Singapore to hit beachhead at night and auto disband after each turn, but with over 100 Nell/Betty at Saigon and 3 CV worth of Kates, that is throwing that force away very quickly. I will lose some ships and a BB may get a torpedo or two, but I can afford to have them MIA for a few months while Singapore is captured.

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 124
RE: The Government of Japan regrets to inform... - 2/20/2010 6:31:41 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Looks like a good plan on Mersing. I would also have Paras handy. Why?

Once you are landing in Mersing, the Allies will probably evacuate the Malaya Peninsula. If you do that, you can get the troops up north down fast via para drop. In particular, drop them on Alor Star and a couple other bases so your guys can then move via train over the railway instead of walking. That should also speed things up. The biggest bottleneck in Malaya is just getting to the paved road along the West coast, once you do that, it does go pretty fast.

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Post #: 125
RE: The Government of Japan regrets to inform... - 2/20/2010 9:01:31 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		Good luck with the game! I'm quite interested in seeing how this will play out.

May I ask: did you switch one carrier to KB 2, because of the problems with the PH strike coordination, which I see whenever I try playing a non-historical first turn against AI, some other strategic reasons, or just to divide carrier power more evenly?

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 126
RE: The Government of Japan regrets to inform... - 2/21/2010 2:52:32 AM   
bklooste

 

Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

It is the Burma HRs that shocked me!  Have people read those?  What do you think about them?



I like them war operations in monsoon jungle is not really practical , even though Burma has clear hexes the supplies have to go over trails. You could allow combat but no supply :-)

Kind of nice for Japan though a few units surounded by battalions in jungle will be hard to dislodge and you have to last till the monsson ends


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Post #: 127
RE: The Government of Japan regrets to inform... - 2/21/2010 2:54:06 AM   
bklooste

 

Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Qball sounds solid in his commentary here.  We run more of a risk in landing at Mersing, however, no matter how quickly we take the base, it WILL shorten the campaign to clear the peninsula.  As to shipping vulnerability, we will have LBA CAP plus 3 CV's worth of PUNCH to help.

What are your final landing forces hitting the beach there Michael?


I do agree with Qball though lessen the forces at the other landing points as those roads are real slow..Get as much possible in Mersing. Did they adjust the prep for mersing ?

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Post #: 128
RE: The Government of Japan regrets to inform... - 2/21/2010 3:11:15 AM   
bklooste

 

Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Ok, more info on the Mersing invasion. As mentioned previously, the WHOLE 5th Division will land at D+5. The 2 x Rgts of the 18th Division that are landing at Kuantan on D+3 can be reloaded and moved down here. 2 of 3 Infantry Rgt of the 56th Division are already pre-loaded at Hiroshima and will be headed this way from Turn 1. I just checked and I will divide that TF into 2 parts, the slower ships (5 xAKLs with speed 10 or 11 into 1 TF and the rest in the other). Most of the combat power is in the faster transports. The 33rd Division will be broken into 3 x Rgt and loaded at Nagasaki as transports arrive.

Since this is a mod, there are other factors to consider. I have 27 Zeros at start, plus another 27 plane Daitai at Bangkok that only has 2 planes and pilots. I have pulled out what I can from Japan based Chutai/Daitai pilots wise, so this will make it have about 1/2 experienced pilots and the rest rookies once I transfer them from Reserve Command. Add in 3 CV worth of planes. If this isn't enough, there are the Oscar and the Oscar Ic have been used to upgrade a 18 plane group. I will have over 150 Oscars and Zeros available before a foot hits the beach at Mersing. They can form Force Z at Singapore to hit beachhead at night and auto disband after each turn, but with over 100 Nell/Betty at Saigon and 3 CV worth of Kates, that is throwing that force away very quickly. I will lose some ships and a BB may get a torpedo or two, but I can afford to have them MIA for a few months while Singapore is captured.



CAP should be enough .. after mersing are you going to make that unit a training one ?

Its prob a good thing not burning all that fuel :-) I wouldnt be using many BBs for the phase between Singapore and Java.

Are you sending an AR to Bangkok or SIngora just in case ?

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Post #: 129
Attack SNLF - 2/21/2010 3:34:01 AM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I don't want to post anything about the first turn until John gets to view the Combat Replay and sends the turn back to the Allies as their turn will be long.

However, I was looking around for infantry to use for my conquest and looked over to see what he has at Truk. Surprise!! There are two of these LCUs. I should have kept one of them.




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Post #: 130
RE: Attack SNLF - 2/21/2010 3:36:10 AM   
JuanG


Posts: 906
Joined: 12/28/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I don't want to post anything about the first turn until John gets to view the Combat Replay and sends the turn back to the Allies as their turn will be long.

However, I was looking around for infantry to use for my conquest and looked over to see what he has at Truk. Surprise!! There are two of these LCUs. I should have kept one of them.



They both start at Truk, and I got no specific orders with regards to them, so I left them there. Might be that John did not notice them either before this.

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Post #: 131
Tora, Tora, Tora - 2/21/2010 4:23:14 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		December 7, 1941
Nagumo Force
120 Miles SW of Pearl Harbor

Against all Japanese expectations, Adm. Nagumo’s Striking Force of five heavy carriers arrives without detection in the early hours of this Sunday morning.  Flying his Flag from the carrier Soryu, he tersely orders the Strike Force to turn into the wind.  With astounding quickness the carriers launch a combined attack of 94 Zero, 146 Val, and 87 Kate.  Commanding the Strike Force is the redoubtable Cmdr. Fuchida.

Perfect weather greets the attackers on this sleepy Sunday morning.  Japanese floatplanes have already reported a total of 1 CVE, 1 BC, 9 BB, and nearly 10 heavy/light cruisers waiting in the large anchorage.  Surprise is near perfect as the planes sweep into the attack. 

The Kates fan out and streak in at wave top level.  Roughly 2/3 of the Kates attack Battleship Row while the remaining planes hit the opposite side of Ford Island where the American carriers and battlecruisers reside.  Soon multiple geysers of oil-filled water rise from every heavy ship in the anchorage.  A minimum of two torpedos hit each major target with California, Maryland, and Tennessee taking 4-5 a piece.  The Tennessee capsizes during the opening minutes of the attack.  Losses among the Kates are fairly light with less then 10 planes shot down to AA fire.

The reason for the light losses is readily explained as nearly ALL the American AA is aimed upwards at the attacking Vals.  As formation after formation of Vals dive into the inferno, many are blasted from the sky.  The massive AA affects the pilots accuracy as only 41 bombs hit targets within the harbor.  The Val losses, while grievous, do manage to take the heat off of the much more deadly Kates so that is a good thing.  After a thorough accounting is taken the Japanese are shocked to have lost 36 of their precious dive-bombers.

As the damage reports are compiled, Adm Nagumo decides (upon Cmdr. Genda’s recommendation) to launch the reserve Torpedo Daitai from Hiryu in an attempt to finish off several American cripples.  Escorted by 22 Zeros these 30 Kates brave murderous AA to deliver a devastating attack.  Over a third of the torpedos hit their targets adding to the carnage of the morning’s attack.  The Battlehip Arizona and Escort Carrier Langley are sunk in this attack.  A third Torp slams into the BC Constitution, as well as further hits on Maryland, Colorado, Oklahoma, and two hits are seen on the new Battleship North Carolina.  In return for this excellent attack the Kates pay the price as 11 are shot down during their attack runs.

In exchange for 36 Vals and 28 Kates, the Japanese sink two Battleships, a CVE, and 1 DD while leaving a BC and 4 BB in sinking condition.  Every American heavy ship is seriously damaged.  An added bonus is 2 Heavy Cruisers and 3 Light Cruisers being hit as well.

Ignoring calls to stay for a second day of strikes, Nagumo orders the Fleet towards Palmyra and Canton to protect Japanese forces moving in that direction.  All-in-all, despite the surprisingly heavy losses, Japan is off to a decent start in what will surely be a long war…     

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Post #: 132
PH Results - 2/21/2010 7:03:16 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		So the narrative above details the rough events.  Now I'll run through it in game terms. 

Didn't lose a single Zero and it seems nearly every pilot gained some experience for the raid.

Losses among the Vals and Kates were NASTY!  I was honestly shocked at the results.  Vals, 4 Daitai hitting Shipping and 1 Daitai hitting AF, were at 12,000 Ft and Kates at 9,000 Ft.  Kate losses were a bit easier to explain with that Daitai attacking in the afternoon phase of Dec 7th.  As noted EVERY Kate that attacked dropped a Torp!  THAT is nice...

Here are the stats:
CVE Langley  2B/2TT  Sunk

BC Constitution  4B/3TT  Heavy Damage

BB Maryland  1B/5TT  Heavy Damage---PERHAPS will sink
BB West Virginia  2B/2TT  On Fire
BB Colorado  1B/3TT  On Fire
BB Tennessee 5B/5TT  SUNK!
BB California  6B/4TT  Heavy Damage---PERHAPS will sink
BB Arizona  8B/5TT  SUNK!
BB Oklahoma  2B/3TT  Heavy Damage
BB Nevada  4B/3TT  Heavy Damage
BB North Carolina  5B/4TT  On Fire

CA Tuscaloosa  1TT 
CA Salem  1TT  On Fire

CL  St. Louis  1TT  On Fire
CL  Philapelphia  1TT
CL  Detroit  1TT  On Fire

DD Conyngham SUNK
DD Damaged

None of the Midgets got into the Harbor.

Hitting EVERY BB/BC/CV within the harbor with at least 2TT is a huge bonus.  Nothing will be usable from the Pearl Forces for quite some time.  Gotta feel pretty good about that little tidbit.


The Nagumo Force now goes south where it will support my Baker and Canton landings.  I sent the normal AOs to Kwajalein where they have met up with another pair of AO from Japan.  Got plenty of fuel for the KB.  They are now CV Hunting...

Since Michael waited for my Posting, I will not steal his thunder for the Manila attack, Philippine action, and Malaya developments. The narrative ball is now in his court.


< Message edited by John 3rd -- 2/21/2010 7:04:39 AM >

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Post #: 133
RE: The Government of Japan regrets to inform... - 2/21/2010 7:10:39 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

Good luck with the game! I'm quite interested in seeing how this will play out.

May I ask: did you switch one carrier to KB 2, because of the problems with the PH strike coordination, which I see whenever I try playing a non-historical first turn against AI, some other strategic reasons, or just to divide carrier power more evenly?


In this game we start with EIGHT CVs. Juan had them split with 6 hitting Pearl and 2 hitting Singapore.

Michael and I both wanted Manila nailed so we floated one of my six to his pair to strike from the west and also created a CTF of 2 CVL and CVE Hosho to strike Manila from the east side. Those strikes flew a total of 90 Zero, 112 Vals, and 106 Kates into Manila for the 2nd Port Attack.

Due to our House Rules the Allies were allowed to create a SS TF of 12 boats who were spared our attack.


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(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 134
Luzon and Beyond - 2/21/2010 1:34:27 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		While John gets the "easy" part of attacking Pearl, I get to start the grunt work.

The war starts out with the "Silent Service" getting into action first. At Kompong Trach, SS KXVII misses xAK Iburi Maru.

Luzon:

Over the skies of Clark Field, 63 A6M2 Zero escort in 27 G3M2 Nell and 54 G4M1 Betty to face some old fighters on CAP - 4 P-26A and 18 P-35A.

quote:

Allied aircraft losses
P-26A: 1 destroyed
P-35A: 3 destroyed, 1 damaged
B-17D Fortress: 2 destroyed on ground
O-47A: 2 destroyed on ground
P-40B Warhawk: 1 destroyed on ground

Airbase hits 17
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 50


Then comes in a group of Army bombers, without fighter escort.
quote:

Ki-21-IIa Sally x 18
Ki-48-Ib Lily x 27

Allied aircraft
P-35A x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-Ib Lily: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17D Fortress: 1 destroyed on ground

Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 12


Last, but not least, a Daitai of 27 A6M2 Zero sweep Clark Field.
In two prior dry runs of my first turn they came in FIRST both time. Now.......

The planes from KB II (CV Akagi - 28Z, 28V, 28K; CV Amagi - 28Z, 28V, 28K: CV Shokaku - 27Z, 27V, 27K; 2 CA, 2 CLAA, CS, 8 DD with RADM Yamaguchi) which is now 160 miles due west of Manila hit the port.
quote:

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 59
B5N2 Kate x 55
D3A1 Val x 82

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
D3A1 Val: 6 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 4 destroyed

Allied Ships
PT-35, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
xAKL Compagnia Filipinas, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AVD Childs, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
SS Sealion, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
AS Holland, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
SS Perch, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
TK Gertrude Kellogg, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
xAK Ethel Edwards, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CA Wichita, Bomb hits 8, heavy fires
xAKL Don Jose, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
SS Shark, Bomb hits 1
xAKL Anakan, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS Sargo, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
SS Salmon, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
AS Canopus, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
SS Permit, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
CL Raleigh, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
SS Seal, Bomb hits 1
TK Mindanao, Bomb hits 2, on fire
SS Tarpon, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage

Repair Shipyard hits 2
Port hits 3
Port fuel hits 1


Mini-KB (CVL Shinyo - 18Z, 12V, 12K; CVL 15Z, 12V, 9K; CVE Hosho - 12Z, 6K; 4CA, CLAA, 6DD with RADM Takagi) is operating 200 miles ESE of Manila.
quote:

A6M2 Zero x 31
B5N2 Kate x 27
D3A1 Val x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 damaged
D3A1 Val: 11 damaged

Allied Ships
PT-32, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
SS Pike, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
AS Canopus, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
SS Seawolf, Bomb hits 1
AM Quail, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
SS Porpoise, Bomb hits 1
SS Sailfish, Bomb hits 1
DD Peary, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAKL Palawan, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
AM Bittern, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
SS Searaven, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
PT Q-111, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
SS Seal, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage

Repair Shipyard hits 1
Port hits 2


In the Afternoon, the last Daitai of Kates from KB II hits the port.
quote:

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 59
B5N2 Kate x 27

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 20

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 5 destroyed

Allied Ships
CL Raleigh, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

Allied ground losses:
16 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Repair Shipyard hits 1
Port hits 3


Malaya:

Kota Bharu is the focus of Japanese assets for the first few days
quote:

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 101
Ki-27b Nate x 12
Ki-43-Ia Oscar x 24
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 32

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IF x 2
Buffalo I x 1

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IF: 1 destroyed
Buffalo I: 1 damage

Allied ground losses:
177 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 14 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 17 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 19


8th Indian Brigade (Kota Bharu)
quote:

Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 25
G4M1 Betty x 25
Ki-27b Nate x 24

Allied aircraft
Buffalo I x 1

No Japanese losses

No Allied losses

Allied ground losses:
85 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)


Can I say one more time that I like the addition of bombers having ground attack as a secondary attack mission??
quote:

Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 25
Ki-27b Nate x 12

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
106 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 9 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled



quote:

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 22

Allied aircraft
Blenheim I x 12
Blenheim IV x 6
Buffalo I x 7
Hudson I x 10

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim I: 1 destroyed, 7 damaged
Blenheim IV: 3 damaged
Buffalo I: 1 destroyed
Hudson I: 1 destroyed, 7 damaged

Japanese Ships
BC Kirishima
BC Hiei
xAK Asakasan Maru
CL Ayase


At Georgetown
quote:

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48-Ib Lily x 55

Allied aircraft
Buffalo I x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-Ib Lily: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Buffalo I: 3 damaged
Buffalo I: 1 destroyed on ground
Blenheim IF: 1 destroyed on ground

Airbase hits 11
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 48


Landings took place at Appari (forces from Batan Island sent here) and Kota Bharu.
Minor aircraft bombing efforts in China, but not worth noting.
Lots of adjustments behind the scenes taking place with the economy. For any JFB out there looking to play this mod, be warned that your Naval Shipyard needs are not adequate for all those nice toys on the building slips.

Plans:
A Daitai each (30 planes) of Zeros will each sweep Clark Field and Manila next turn. All Nell/Betty at Takao are set for Naval Attack/Port Attack (Manila) with the 4 x 9 plane Chutai of Zeros as escort.
Every LB in IndoChina is assigned to bomb ground LCUs at Kota Bharu. I had to resend the turn to John as I forgot to have the troops here attack next turn.
KB II will head west to cover Kuantan and then Mersing invasions. The 2 BCs at Kota Bharu will merge in the next few days.
Mini-KB will head south to support landings at Morotai and then at Ambon. The 4 BBs at Hiroshima were placed in a SC TF on turn 1 with the bonus move and are at Babeldoab.

Overall, a good first day for the new and improve Empire of Japan.

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 135
RE: Luzon and Beyond - 2/21/2010 1:44:08 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		CL Mogami Class ships are now in 3 SC TF that I have given over to John to run around the Sula Sea and South China Sea area with 3 or 4 DDs. They retain their original configurations.




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Post #: 136
RE: Luzon and Beyond - 2/21/2010 2:12:04 PM   
n01487477


Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

quote:

Lots of adjustments behind the scenes taking place with the economy. For any JFB out there looking to play this mod, be warned that your Naval Shipyard needs are not adequate for all those nice toys on the building slips.


Just to reiterate what Michael is saying ... and I'm not making ship build suggestions here ... that is up to the C&C's - I'm just showing what is possible at the beginning. But the pure facts are that you need on average 2100 pts per turn, 600 more than you have at the start. I suggested to Michael, that hard choices are going to have to be made because of HI considerations compounded by the pilot training increase in '42 ->

600,000 supplies are also on the line here - something I'm steering away from by advocated only an additional 100~150 extra naval shipyards be built (hence an additional 300~450 HI/day and 100~150K supplies)- and I hate doing this much as I'd rather spend those supplies on planes and conquest. And maybe if John and Michael assess the situation they may realise that all these toys are just not worth the price of admission.

Anyway, IF they decide to increase the shipyards I hope Michael does this by spreading the build at multiple facilities to speed this up. The hump doesn't really occur until the start of '43, and I think the C&C's are going to have to make some necessary and difficult decisions.

--Damian--




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Tutes&Java

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 137
RE: Luzon and Beyond - 2/21/2010 4:00:24 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I thought Manila was a real success.  We hit 15 SS and sank 3 of them with more to go down for sure.  The CA, CL, and a DD are in deep kimchi as well.  Not too bad for a beginning as the KB-2 and KB-3 will sink anything that comes into their range as they move to their objectives.  My 4 STF will raise some Hell while the bigger boys are busy.
 
Our Economics Minister speaks well.  As to industrial and shipyard expansion my recommendation is to spread the expansion over a BUNCH of shipyards instead of just a few.  Manchuria and Korea have several very small yards we could expand without infringing too much upon our economy.  I very much believe in expansion over there as well as China.  Many Allied players rarely (except for DAN!  ) think to attack this region in 1944/1945.  Damian and Michael--I'll spend some time while at work to look around and make formal industrial proposals for the two of you to shoot down. 

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Post #: 138
Naval Shipyards - 2/21/2010 6:28:33 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I expanded by 68 x 3 = 191 points/day




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Post #: 139
RE: Naval Shipyards - 2/21/2010 8:56:27 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		Great start guys.  It's interesting stuff and I like the idea of expanding shipyards outside of the HIs.

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Post #: 140
RE: Naval Shipyards - 2/21/2010 9:39:49 PM   
Cribtop


Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline 		The flag is up!

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Post #: 141
RE: Naval Shipyards - 2/21/2010 9:43:46 PM   
n01487477


Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I expanded by 68 x 3 = 191 points/day




To clarify,
I'm sure you meant this additional 63 Naval points = 191 HI pts/day. The multiplier is on the expense, not the production.

That brings it up to 1508 + 63 = 1571 /day ... I hope you think about the trade-off's before adding too much more.

< Message edited by n01487477 -- 2/21/2010 9:48:36 PM >

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Post #: 142
RE: Naval Shipyards - 2/22/2010 12:43:30 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Shipyard Expansion Proposal
Shipwreck 2x2

As a Japanese player I am well aware of the competing needs of the Japanese Industry. Whenever possible I try to expand facilities outside of Japan to help alleviate the strain of expansion and competing needs. Naval Shipyards and Repair Yards are prime examples of this.

Merchant Yards
There are a decent number of Merchant Yards that can be converted and expanded into Naval Yards:

Pusan 10
Port Arthur 6
Shanghai 30

For no cost to the Home Islands we could convert these Yards into Naval Yards and expand them so they looked something like this:

Pusan 20 or 40
Port Arthur 24 or 48
Shanghai 60 or 120

It would be expensive but NOT within the Home Islands. We could gain somewhere between 104-208 additional Shipyard points. These points, added to the expansion Michael has started in the Home Islands, would go a long way to solving our shortage.

Repair Yards
While we only have three possibilities in Naval Yards, there exist a host of Repair Yards we can capture and/or expand. I’ll list the Location, Yard Size, and then recommended Yard Expansion:

Pusan 15---30 or 60
Port Arthur 25---50
Shanghai 50---100
Hong Kong 51-102
Takao 6---24
Saigon 20---40 or 80

Something that drives me nuts is not having enough Capital Ships as Japan and then having to WAIT if there isn’t room for repairing a warship when needed. If we expand these Yards as well as Singapore, Manila, Soerabaja, and Perth, we can spread our damaged warships and merchants thus clearing the major Yards in Japan for truly important repairs.

What do you think?





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Post #: 143
China Thoughts - 2/22/2010 1:03:48 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		General Benoit is in charge of China and I gladly say "I HATE CHINA!" 

Looking around the map, while being totally freaked at the VAST amount of Chinese units present on it, I noticed that Wenchow has good Manpower, Resources, HI, and LI.  Is this a place to grab fairly early in attempting to clear the coast?  Seems like Pakhoi and Kwangchawan also fit that description.

Does it do any good to take these locations?

I know the good General is planning a massed drive in the North of China so this is quite probably a distraction but it is something I noticed.


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Post #: 144
RE: China Thoughts - 2/22/2010 1:48:31 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Before you convert alot of Merchant Shipyards to Naval, do an analysis in tracker. I think you'll find that the early surplus disappears quickly and later turns into a deficit if you don't halt any builds. In WITP that wasn't a problem as you could turn off all merchant construction turn 1 and NEVER have a problem, but there is less of a margin in AE (though there is still one). I think you can afford SOME conversion, but don't go overboard. Just know that you won't be able to build all the merchant ships in queue.

I wouldn't expand shipyards a whole lot, not because of the supply expenditure, but because they consume ALOT of HI, and you need to be building a surplus each turn throughout 1942 to account for pilot training, and to build more engines and planes.

FYI, my experience in production...if there is one thing you are short in turn 1, it's ENGINES, particularly Ha-35s, but also the 32s and 33s. Take a real close look at expanding those!

I'm not the expert, but that's my 2 Yen anyway.

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Post #: 145
RE: Naval Shipyards - Damian the Stop sign! - 2/22/2010 1:53:47 AM   
n01487477


Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Shipyard Expansion Proposal
Shipwreck 2x2

As a Japanese player I am well aware of the competing needs of the Japanese Industry. Whenever possible I try to expand facilities outside of Japan to help alleviate the strain of expansion and competing needs. Naval Shipyards and Repair Yards are prime examples of this.

Merchant Yards
There are a decent number of Merchant Yards that can be converted and expanded into Naval Yards:

Pusan 10
Port Arthur 6
Shanghai 30

For no cost to the Home Islands we could convert these Yards into Naval Yards and expand them so they looked something like this:

Pusan 20 or 40
Port Arthur 24 or 48
Shanghai 60 or 120

It would be expensive but NOT within the Home Islands. We could gain somewhere between 104-208 additional Shipyard points. These points, added to the expansion Michael has started in the Home Islands, would go a long way to solving our shortage.

Playing Damian the stop sign again ... Never ever ever convert ! They revert back to fully unrepaired (if the dev's changed this to 1/2 loss maybe I'd rethink it), and you're in a worse position... please don't. If you want to expand Naval, do it at the facilities you have. And as I said before and QBall has reiterated ... building these things might bring you a cropper "so assess the situation and maybe realise that all these toys are just not worth the price of admission. " ... supplies and HI.
quote:


Repair Yards
While we only have three possibilities in Naval Yards, there exist a host of Repair Yards we can capture and/or expand. I’ll list the Location, Yard Size, and then recommended Yard Expansion:

Pusan 15---30 or 60
Port Arthur 25---50
Shanghai 50---100
Hong Kong 51-102
Takao 6---24
Saigon 20---40 or 80

Something that drives me nuts is not having enough Capital Ships as Japan and then having to WAIT if there isn’t room for repairing a warship when needed. If we expand these Yards as well as Singapore, Manila, Soerabaja, and Perth, we can spread our damaged warships and merchants thus clearing the major Yards in Japan for truly important repairs.

What do you think?





I think you've outlined too much expansion, too many supplies gone ... I'd just be looking at a few of those ...

Remember that to utilise repair yards, they must have a capacity more than the ship tonnage. So a size 24 repair yard will only accomodate one 24,000 ton vessel. Of course you can stack them as long as each is below this tonnage. The other thing to remember is the points aren't accumulated & larger Repair Yards provide more points (x10).Still repairs are also more streamlined in AE than witp, so less time waiting ...

I'd be more of less inclined to build the small ones in Japan (the size 5 & 10's - as they are not useless, but can only effectively repair one ship at a time), as well 1 or maybe 2 of your choices.

Or come up with a scheme as to where you will repair each tonnage ship... and build accordingly... or do other forum members go for the big build thesis, that it's better to have a couple of huge yards ?

Not sure myself on this one, how is Michael finding the repairs in his current alt-game ?...

< Message edited by n01487477 -- 2/22/2010 1:57:54 AM >

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Post #: 146
RE: Naval Shipyards - Damian the Stop sign! - 2/22/2010 2:18:37 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I am attempting to hold back my shame and tears.  The Economics Minister has spoken and shall be taken seriously by this member of the Ruling Imperial Council.  OK.  So that idea bombed--pardon the pun.  This is why I chose to start with the 2x2 and not a 1x1.  With AE I am so FAAARRR behind the learning curve with the economy it is scary.

With one idea destroyed, how about the China thoughts?
 

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Post #: 147
RE: Naval Shipyards - Damian the Stop sign! - 2/22/2010 2:55:00 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		John;

You are CORRECT, however, on China. Wenchow should be an early grab for a number of reasons. The Roads around there aren't great, but other than that, it's all in your favor. It should probably be your first priority.

It's a good idea to clear ALL ports on the China coast, if for no other reason then they can't land sub-transported fragments from the Phillipines there (and then air transport them to India for reconstruction).

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Post #: 148
RE: Naval Shipyards - Damian the Stop sign! - 2/22/2010 2:58:13 AM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		Note, that on the opening turn Chinese forces are positioned to take Foochow. Unless your opponents miss this fact, you need to reinforce the city by sea, any reserves moving overland will be too late. Overall, immediate move to Southern China makes sense, because it is all hard terrain and relatively easy to defend, once reinforced. Central Plains probably can be saved for later.



< Message edited by FatR -- 2/22/2010 3:03:14 AM >

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Post #: 149
China - 2/22/2010 3:12:10 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Michael is working tonight.  Just talked to him on the phone. 

The Allies are asking for a one month truce in China.  He is inclined to agree so he can reposition his troops before a massed attack.  I think the truce should also include a rule regarding what is mentioned above about moving units out of the Philippines that way.  If that isn't included then Michael had better go over to the attack so we aren't hurt by it later on.

Also found out that the Allies probably won't get their Dec 8th turn to us until late-tomorrow.


< Message edited by John 3rd -- 2/22/2010 3:13:09 AM >

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Post #: 150
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