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RE: WIF Release - 3/1/2010 8:57:13 PM

Skanvak

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Composer is right on this one. The only thing we could ask is a correction of the mercator projection toward the pole to reduce the number of hexes is northern finland and Siberia (well Canada too but I am not sure it is very important).

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Skanvak

(in reply to composer99)

Post #: 31

RE: WIF Release - 3/1/2010 9:31:45 PM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

Composer is right on this one. The only thing we could ask is a correction of the mercator projection toward the pole to reduce the number of hexes is northern finland and Siberia (well Canada too but I am not sure it is very important).

This was done in Scandinavia.

(in reply to Skanvak)

Post #: 32

RE: WIF Release - 3/2/2010 1:40:33 AM

NeverMan

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

To the best of my knowledge and understanding, all 'changes' are with the request or approval of the designer.

1. So were the EiA changes. ADF (aka Harry Rowland and crew?) were perfectly fine with whatever butchering Matrix wanted to do with EiA, why do they care, they're getting paid!

2. I really don't care about the map issue that much, it's the principle that bothers me.

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 33

RE: WIF Release - 3/2/2010 1:42:21 AM

NeverMan

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It doesn't matter if that's who WiF was "suppose" to be or not, what matters is how a lot of people played the games for YEARS and YEARS and now they are going to change it and whether you want to believe it or not, it will change the way the game is played to some degree.

(in reply to NeverMan)

Post #: 34

RE: WIF Release - 3/2/2010 4:14:30 AM

SamuraiProgrmmr

Posts: 353
Joined: 10/17/2004
From: Paducah, Kentucky
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I have no idea if Harry Rowland approved the changes to Empires In Arms but I do know that the design of that game was heavily influenced by by Empires In Harm (a set of 'house rules' that appear to have been quite unbalanced).

I never said that it would not change the game. Clearly it will. The question is how much and whether the changes will be good or not.

I understand your position about this being an issue of principle. However, the map issue is (I believe) the only major core change. There are some other things that were 'adjusted' to fit the new Pacific Map hex paradigm.

Don't forget; the extension of European Map scale to the rest of the world has been in place since Chris M. was working on this so many years ago.

I am not going to provoke you into a discussion after you have indicated it was an issue of prinicple and it doesn't matter. If you would like to have that discussion in detail, post here and say so or send me a PM.

In principle, I agree with you most of the time. For example, I hate it when Hollywood takes a perfectly good story and ruins it by twisting it around in some way. (Notable examples are what they did to Starship Troopers and The Puppet Masters.)

BUT occasionally, they get it right and their small changes work when bringing something to the big screen. (Notable mention was the ending to The Hunt For Red October and the changes in the recent Angels & Demons). These changes are not always necessary and sometimes are just to satisfy the ego of the producers / directors / script writers / etc.

I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THE CHANGES IN THIS GAME ARE TO SATISFY ANYONE'S EGO.

Hopefully they will be welcome additions.

spelling edited

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(in reply to NeverMan)

Post #: 35

RE: WIF Release - 3/2/2010 8:15:44 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

To the best of my knowledge and understanding, all 'changes' are with the request or approval of the designer.

1. So were the EiA changes. ADF (aka Harry Rowland and crew?) were perfectly fine with whatever butchering Matrix wanted to do with EiA, why do they care, they're getting paid!

2. I really don't care about the map issue that much, it's the principle that bothers me.

ADG has been changing WIF continuously since it was first released (~1985). Do you disapprove of all their changes? Or just some of their changes?

I have trouble understanding what principle is being violated.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to NeverMan)

Post #: 36

RE: WIF Release - 3/2/2010 12:16:06 PM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

I have trouble understanding what principle is being violated.

Hey Steve, welcome to the wonderful world of Neverman. He's always right, and everyone else is always wrong.

Drive on!!

(in reply to Skanvak)

Post #: 37

RE: WIF Release - 3/2/2010 3:27:21 PM

michaelbaldur

Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

I have trouble understanding what principle is being violated.

Hey Steve, welcome to the wonderful world of Neverman. He's always right, and everyone else is always wrong.

Drive on!!

there should be room for everybody and every opinion...

but on another note:

I have spend alot of time playtesting MWIF ... and I have played the war in china many times ....

it is a little more mobile. but then again. you don�t have enough HQ to advance everywhere. and there are alot of mountains

so China is still a pain ...

the change of hex size on the American map means that USA can�t move all of their units from one hex any more ... which means that they need to use more naval moves to transport the units

there more pacific hexes. so there are more hexes to defend

but the allies still have to take the Capital/all ports to conquere the island groups.

to conquer the Territory of new Guinea the allied need to take back 3 ports.

with 6 japanese white print units. you can delay the allied for a long time ...

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by michaelbaldur -- 3/3/2010 11:11:16 AM >

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 38

RE: WIF Release - 3/2/2010 4:05:31 PM

micheljq

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From: Quebec
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I guess the Americans will have to choose carefully what they want to conquer/occupy in the Pacific, as they can't occupy all territories. A little as in WW2. They were choosing the bases that would get them closer to Japan and they did ignore the others to some extent.

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"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
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(in reply to michaelbaldur)

Post #: 39

RE: WIF Release - 3/2/2010 4:57:00 PM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
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From: Maryland
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quote:

there should be room for everybody and every opinion...

I agree 100%. However, there are those who insist their way is the only way and various game options and other Matrix/ADG-approved changes/improvements/enhancements are unacceptable. Neverman has made a sour reputation for himself on the EiA forum being one of those. Like I said, Steve should drive on and not worry about it. Looking forward to MWiF. Cheers!

(in reply to Skanvak)

Post #: 40

RE: WIF Release - 3/3/2010 8:03:15 AM

Blorsh

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Joined: 12/24/2009
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I think that is the map scale is changed why not the units scale is changed? Army sizes units were designed for a spicific mapscale so it could be revised.

But I also think that different size units are playing at same game map, with different scale but the same map, so if some armies units are changed to corps their combat stats have to be changed so or the 3 corps that dormed the 1st army, for example, will have 3 more power at the new scale.

Is no so easy.

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 41

RE: WIF Release - 3/3/2010 8:31:14 AM

vonpaul

Posts: 178
Joined: 8/5/2004
From: Sydney, Australia
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There is always the fascist tide scenario :)

Does anyone know if the new pacific maps have been play-tested?

(in reply to Blorsh)

Post #: 42

RE: WIF Release - 3/3/2010 9:40:55 AM

Froonp

Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blorsh

I think that is the map scale is changed why not the units scale is changed? Army sizes units were designed for a spicific mapscale so it could be revised.

But I also think that different size units are playing at same game map, with different scale but the same map, so if some armies units are changed to corps their combat stats have to be changed so or the 3 corps that dormed the 1st army, for example, will have 3 more power at the new scale.

Is no so easy.

I think that you're mislead with the scale.
What is called an "army" for the Japanese, the Chinese and the Russians in WiF FE, are the same as what is called a "Corps" for the USA, CW. About the same number of mens, artillery and tanks. This is even true for the Russians in the real world, where their armies where equivallent to western corps and their corps were equivallent to western divisions.

I mean, the term "army" was not used for scale purposes, so changing the scale of the land does not necessitate to change the scale of the units. They are already the same scale all around the WiF world.

(in reply to Blorsh)

Post #: 43

RE: WIF Release - 3/3/2010 11:07:14 AM

michaelbaldur

Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonpaul

There is always the fascist tide scenario :)

Does anyone know if the new pacific maps have been play-tested?

not very much. there are some problems with the over sea supply ... so it is not easy to test. but I can almost guarantee that there will come a AAR of a pacific campaign.

when the supply work ....

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to vonpaul)

Post #: 44

RE: WIF Release - 3/3/2010 5:02:56 PM

composer99

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In theory, the CWiF Beta means people are playing, albeit using obsolete rules, on the new scale. Is the new scale being officially tested? Maybe not per michaelbaldur's post. Unofficially? Quite possibly.

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(in reply to michaelbaldur)

Post #: 45

RE: WIF Release - 3/3/2010 5:53:20 PM

lomyrin

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From: San Diego
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The CWiF program did use the same map scale and units as MWiF and has been played extensively.

The differences are the CWiF operating with RAW6 and MWiF with the latest rules. Optional additional cities have been added in MWiF for China and the divisional breakdowns are a little different. The counter mix has also been updated to the present rules.

There was a thread some time ago on the War in China.

Lars

(in reply to composer99)

Post #: 46

RE: WIF Release - 3/3/2010 7:01:42 PM

micheljq

Posts: 791
Joined: 3/31/2008
From: Quebec
Status: offline

Here is the thead with the AAR on the war in China, very interesting.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2149608&mpage=1&key=

_____________________________

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"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815

(in reply to lomyrin)

Post #: 47

RE: WIF Release - 3/3/2010 10:34:11 PM

NeverMan

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

there should be room for everybody and every opinion...

I agree 100%. However, there are those who insist their way is the only way and various game options and other Matrix/ADG-approved changes/improvements/enhancements are unacceptable. Neverman has made a sour reputation for himself on the EiA forum being one of those. Like I said, Steve should drive on and not worry about it. Looking forward to MWiF. Cheers!

Odd, you are one of the only ones who think I have a "sour" reputation. In fact, Marshall even sent me an IM thanking me for my "differing" opinions.

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 48

RE: WIF Release - 3/3/2010 10:36:27 PM

NeverMan

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

To the best of my knowledge and understanding, all 'changes' are with the request or approval of the designer.

1. So were the EiA changes. ADF (aka Harry Rowland and crew?) were perfectly fine with whatever butchering Matrix wanted to do with EiA, why do they care, they're getting paid!

2. I really don't care about the map issue that much, it's the principle that bothers me.

ADG has been changing WIF continuously since it was first released (~1985). Do you disapprove of all their changes? Or just some of their changes?

I have trouble understanding what principle is being violated.

Just the changes involved with making this PC game. It will, undoubtedly, not be a faithful port, Matrix doesn't seem to be very good at doing that.

That said, a lot of people probably don't want a faithful port and that's fine, my opinion is that I do and I won't get it.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 49

RE: WIF Release - 3/3/2010 10:53:38 PM

Orm

Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blorsh

I think that is the map scale is changed why not the units scale is changed? Army sizes units were designed for a spicific mapscale so it could be revised.

But I also think that different size units are playing at same game map, with different scale but the same map, so if some armies units are changed to corps their combat stats have to be changed so or the 3 corps that dormed the 1st army, for example, will have 3 more power at the new scale.

Is no so easy.

You can play MWIF with an unlimited divisions option and they work very well with the new pacific scale.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Blorsh)

Post #: 50

RE: WIF Release - 3/4/2010 5:29:23 AM

Froonp

Posts: 7995
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From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline

People should stop speaking of unlimited divisions in MWIF. Divisions are no more unlimited. They are less restricted by the counters available, but they are limited indeed to 2 divisions for each existing corps.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blorsh

I think that is the map scale is changed why not the units scale is changed? Army sizes units were designed for a spicific mapscale so it could be revised.

But I also think that different size units are playing at same game map, with different scale but the same map, so if some armies units are changed to corps their combat stats have to be changed so or the 3 corps that dormed the 1st army, for example, will have 3 more power at the new scale.

Is no so easy.

You can play MWIF with an unlimited divisions option and they work very well with the new pacific scale.

(in reply to Orm)

Post #: 51

RE: WIF Release - 3/4/2010 9:06:45 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

People should stop speaking of unlimited divisions in MWIF. Divisions are no more unlimited. They are less restricted by the counters available, but they are limited indeed to 2 divisions for each existing corps.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blorsh

I think that is the map scale is changed why not the units scale is changed? Army sizes units were designed for a spicific mapscale so it could be revised.

But I also think that different size units are playing at same game map, with different scale but the same map, so if some armies units are changed to corps their combat stats have to be changed so or the 3 corps that dormed the 1st army, for example, will have 3 more power at the new scale.

Is no so easy.

You can play MWIF with an unlimited divisions option and they work very well with the new pacific scale.

True.

I could use a new name for this optional rule.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 52

RE: WIF Release - 3/4/2010 2:04:13 PM

Mad Russian

Posts: 13256
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From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

It doesn't matter if that's who WiF was "suppose" to be or not, what matters is how a lot of people played the games for YEARS and YEARS and now they are going to change it and whether you want to believe it or not, it will change the way the game is played to some degree.

Why do you think we've all waited all these years? I want the game to change. I want it to change from being a board game to being a computer game. For those that don't want that this is probably not going to be a good fit.

I'm not normally one of the guys that wants to see games ported over directly. WiF is so good it's probably one of the few that will be a good thing to see happen.

Our group hasn't kept up with all the little baby flames and we don't agree with all of them. It's my understanding we can play with whichever rules set we like as options. That's great. If not, we'll still play. This is World in Flames after all.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 3/4/2010 2:05:45 PM >

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Post #: 53

RE: WIF Release - 3/4/2010 2:32:38 PM

Edfactor

Posts: 106
Joined: 6/13/2008
From: Dallas
Status: offline

quote:

In principle, I agree with you most of the time. For example, I hate it when Hollywood takes a perfectly good story and ruins it by twisting it around in some way. (Notable examples are what they did to Starship Troopers and The Puppet Masters.)

This is so true. But what about the remakes they do, Planet of the apes, Rollerball, Day the Earth Stood Still. They manage to screw those up to.

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 54

RE: WIF Release - 3/4/2010 4:03:32 PM

michaelbaldur

Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

People should stop speaking of unlimited divisions in MWIF. Divisions are no more unlimited. They are less restricted by the counters available, but they are limited indeed to 2 divisions for each existing corps.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blorsh

I think that is the map scale is changed why not the units scale is changed? Army sizes units were designed for a spicific mapscale so it could be revised.

But I also think that different size units are playing at same game map, with different scale but the same map, so if some armies units are changed to corps their combat stats have to be changed so or the 3 corps that dormed the 1st army, for example, will have 3 more power at the new scale.

Is no so easy.

You can play MWIF with an unlimited divisions option and they work very well with the new pacific scale.

True.

I could use a new name for this optional rule.

what about ... additional/more breakdowns....

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 55

RE: WIF Release - 3/4/2010 6:22:49 PM

rkr1958

Posts: 23483
Joined: 5/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

People should stop speaking of unlimited divisions in MWIF. Divisions are no more unlimited. They are less restricted by the counters available, but they are limited indeed to 2 divisions for each existing corps.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blorsh

I think that is the map scale is changed why not the units scale is changed? Army sizes units were designed for a spicific mapscale so it could be revised.

But I also think that different size units are playing at same game map, with different scale but the same map, so if some armies units are changed to corps their combat stats have to be changed so or the 3 corps that dormed the 1st army, for example, will have 3 more power at the new scale.

Is no so easy.

You can play MWIF with an unlimited divisions option and they work very well with the new pacific scale.

True.

I could use a new name for this optional rule.

what about ... additional/more breakdowns....

What about, the "Unlimited Divisions" option?

(in reply to michaelbaldur)

Post #: 56

RE: WIF Release - 3/4/2010 6:47:20 PM

SamuraiProgrmmr

Posts: 353
Joined: 10/17/2004
From: Paducah, Kentucky
Status: offline

How about

Complete Divisional Breakdown Option

or

CDB Option

or

CDBO

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(in reply to rkr1958)

Post #: 57

RE: WIF Release - 3/4/2010 6:59:25 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

How about

Complete Divisional Breakdown Option

or

CDB Option

or

CDBO

Hmm,

Merging suggestions, I come up with: Unlimited Breakdown.

This is different from Unlimited Divisions, which implies you can build as many divisions as you like. Unlimited Breakdown means you can break down all your Corps/Armies into divisions - which is what this optional rule does.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 58

RE: WIF Release - 3/4/2010 7:53:41 PM

Froonp

Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

How about

Complete Divisional Breakdown Option

or

CDB Option

or

CDBO

Hmm,

Merging suggestions, I come up with: Unlimited Breakdown.

This is different from Unlimited Divisions, which implies you can build as many divisions as you like. Unlimited Breakdown means you can break down all your Corps/Armies into divisions - which is what this optional rule does.

This is not unlimited Breakdown, as you are limited to the corps you have.

Also, you can break down all your Corps/Armies into divisions, but also you can't build back a corps you have broken down into divisions, so for me it is "Expanded Division Breakdown".

It is the "Division Breakdown" option, that is expanded to something better.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 59

RE: WIF Release - 3/4/2010 9:51:17 PM

Orm

Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

People should stop speaking of unlimited divisions in MWIF. Divisions are no more unlimited. They are less restricted by the counters available, but they are limited indeed to 2 divisions for each existing corps.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blorsh

I think that is the map scale is changed why not the units scale is changed? Army sizes units were designed for a spicific mapscale so it could be revised.

But I also think that different size units are playing at same game map, with different scale but the same map, so if some armies units are changed to corps their combat stats have to be changed so or the 3 corps that dormed the 1st army, for example, will have 3 more power at the new scale.

Is no so easy.

You can play MWIF with an unlimited divisions option and they work very well with the new pacific scale.

I am sorry to have offended

I could have explained what it this option means and so on and named the option by its current name "unlimited breakdown".
For me unlimited division is just that the divisions are not limited by the original WIF division counters. They are still limited by how many corps you have to break down.

But I just wanted to make a fast comment that there is an option available in MWIF that allows you to have more divisions in MWIF on the pacific map than you were allowed in WIF. I didn't feel it was important to explain just how it works in regards to this subject. I thought most would understand that there would be no endless hordes of free divisions to place on every hex in the pacific.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Froonp)

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RE: WIF Release