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Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/19/2010 1:44:16 PM

Squamry

Posts: 94
Joined: 2/28/2005
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I'd got to about March 44 as allied plaing against the AI, but it had got a bit boring as most of the major Jap assets were at the bottom of the ocean and I was advancing at will. It had become more of an admin excercise than providing any tension or enjoyment. I'm playing a PBeM as Allied which is still in the early days and that's proving enjoyable, but last weekend decided to start a game as Japan to see what the differences are. Below are my initial observations after 2 weeks of game time on the differences as I see them and would welcome advise or comments from others.

1) So many movng parts.
Japan has to really make use of it amphibious advantage early on and it takes a lot of co-ordination to get all the parts working together. When you do start offensive operations as allies you can usually afford to wait.

2) Managing replacements/bases
Much more important as there is a limit on resources. As allied you can easily afford to build every base up and allow all units to take replacements. Ok you don't always for tactical reasons but these are the exceptions. For the Japs the situation is reversed.

3) Production quanderies.
I'm really not sure where to step up or reduce production. I've trawled some prevuious posting on this and made some adjustments. How many Kate's should I build? Which production do I need to increase/reduce? As allied you just take what you given and get on with it.

4) How much stuff do i use?
I constantly re evaluating which LCU's to use and in what theatre. Do I attempt to use everything straight away or keep some back? I know some units will be reused after intial targets aer taken, but do I need to keep a strategic reserve in case I've misjudged the resources needed in some are?

Greg

Post #: 1

RE: Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/19/2010 4:55:19 PM

Shark7

Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Squamry

I'd got to about March 44 as allied plaing against the AI, but it had got a bit boring as most of the major Jap assets were at the bottom of the ocean and I was advancing at will. It had become more of an admin excercise than providing any tension or enjoyment. I'm playing a PBeM as Allied which is still in the early days and that's proving enjoyable, but last weekend decided to start a game as Japan to see what the differences are. Below are my initial observations after 2 weeks of game time on the differences as I see them and would welcome advise or comments from others.

1) So many movng parts.
Japan has to really make use of it amphibious advantage early on and it takes a lot of co-ordination to get all the parts working together. When you do start offensive operations as allies you can usually afford to wait.

2) Managing replacements/bases
Much more important as there is a limit on resources. As allied you can easily afford to build every base up and allow all units to take replacements. Ok you don't always for tactical reasons but these are the exceptions. For the Japs the situation is reversed.

3) Production quanderies.
I'm really not sure where to step up or reduce production. I've trawled some prevuious posting on this and made some adjustments. How many Kate's should I build? Which production do I need to increase/reduce? As allied you just take what you given and get on with it.

4) How much stuff do i use?
I constantly re evaluating which LCU's to use and in what theatre. Do I attempt to use everything straight away or keep some back? I know some units will be reused after intial targets aer taken, but do I need to keep a strategic reserve in case I've misjudged the resources needed in some are?

Greg

Welcome to the challenging part of the game. I've played Allies before and found the same thing you have, towards the end it just gets boring because you are simply far too powerful, especially against the AI.

Now some tips from a 'cautious' Japanese player:

1. In areas that you know or highly suspect are very lightly defended, you can move with some swiftness, using lightly escorted amphibious task forces to take ground quickly. The key is covering ground quickly, by the start of 1943 you will have lost momentum.

2. On bases, definately increase fortifications for anything you want to defend. Do not increase airfield size on indefensible island outposts, you'll just be handing ready to use airfields to the Allies in 1943 on. Except for major basing areas, do not increase your ports...again, you'll just be helping the Allies in the end.

3. On production, the key tip I can give you is take it slow. You will want to ramp up fighter production over the first few months, but do it slowly, because you do not have enough fuel and resource to support the HI it will require turn 1. The two fighters to concentrate on for early game are the A6M2 and Ki-43Ic. Dump the Nates eventually. Light bombers aren't very usefull...pick one model to produce and change the others over to either Sallies, Helens or Betty. I'd keep the Nells in production becuase they do eventually gain search radar. Armaments and vehicles should be ok, and careful management of shipyards should see you not having to increase them. Naval shipyard is more necessary than merchant, so if you do increase them, Naval are the ones.

4. On LCU's keep enough to properly defend key areas, and use the rest to take territory. You can start pulling back when you see the Allies are ready to start they're major march. Always defend the SRA, the longer you keep the SRA, the longer you postpone the inevitable. Aircraft...use China to gain experience. Rotate new units into China, and units of 75+ XP back to Japan, particularly fighters. You will constantly have to use a training mission for air to air improvement, but the general experience you gain from attacking Chinese ground troops is beneficial as well.

Final tip: Accelerate the building of the Unryu and Taiho type carriers whenever possible (just make sure you still get the badly needed DDs in the queue on time)...try to get those flight decks while you still have a chance to put them to use, as in 1944-1945 you probably won't get much more out of them than drawing Dive-bombers.

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Post #: 2

RE: Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/19/2010 4:59:40 PM

Q-Ball

Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
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Having played both, I think playing Japan is tougher, period. Much more to manage, and much less margin for error.

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RE: Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/19/2010 9:17:47 PM

Fletcher

Posts: 3386
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From: Jerez, Spain, EU
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With similar experience (both sides played) like Q-Ball, I am absolutely agree with his oppinion. I need three hours playing like jap vs one hour like allied in the same period.
Best of wishes

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Post #: 4

RE: Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/19/2010 9:35:43 PM

Grotius

Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
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Yep, I've played both, and I find Japan a lot tougher. Fun, though.

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RE: Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/19/2010 9:38:51 PM

John 3rd

Posts: 17178
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From: La Salle, Colorado
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For FUN I have played the Allies. It was a blast both times. I loved counter-punching the Japanese. So few Allied players truly realize the true limitations Japan has to deal with throughout the war. The Steamroller can be kicked off the tracks with a few well-aimed punches and jabs.

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Post #: 6

RE: Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/19/2010 10:55:40 PM

tbridges

Posts: 263
Joined: 6/25/2005
From: North Carolina
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Any juicy details you would like to share for us Allied fanboys?

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The easy way is always mined...

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Post #: 7

RE: Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/19/2010 11:51:08 PM

Squamry

Posts: 94
Joined: 2/28/2005
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I've been quite impressed by the AI's spoiling tactics with small surface TFs. They are sacrifical it seeems, but are causing annoyance. In PBeM I can see why often there is agreement on spending PP to get additional units to china from soviet border. There is a LOT of stuff that can be moved.

(in reply to tbridges)

Post #: 8

RE: Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/20/2010 2:14:41 AM

topeverest

Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
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The joy of either side is learning your center, but let me offer this kernal for allied enthusiasts. One huge key to early momentum shifts is not the grand CV battle many think are necessary, it is engaging the Japs as they jump bases in the small lightly (or un-) escorted attacks, usually where there is little or no land based air to support them / harass you. The beginning of the momentum shift is when the japs feel they have to escort more or even every invasion with a CV and / or BB convoy. In many cases a half dozen DD's can turn invasions back where they would otherwise succeed.

This can be done right from the first days of the war, but know you will lose more assets than a traditional soft start approach. it is worth it in my view.

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Post #: 9

RE: Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/20/2010 6:52:42 AM

John 3rd

Posts: 17178
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From: La Salle, Colorado
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Counter-punch. Counter-punch! COUNTER-PUNCH!!!

Every plane, ship, and soldier killed is one less that Japan will never get back. Lose a few ships as the Allies? Heck--You're gonna get 1,000,000 replacements. Falling back and not fighting is (in my opinion) the worst strategy in dealing with early Japan. Will it be bloody? YES! Will it help you go over to offensive earlier then normal--YES!

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Post #: 10

RE: Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/20/2010 7:27:26 AM

sven6345789

Posts: 1050
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From: Sandviken, Sweden
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one more thing for the japanese
always try to advance under aircover; The range of your Zero/Betty teams will be the area in which you can operate with relative safety; need to bring the air HQs along too though.

Question: are the HQs air transportable? not sure about the torpedo ordnance

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Post #: 11

RE: Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/20/2010 12:37:39 PM

Halsey

Posts: 5069
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sven6345789

one more thing for the japanese
always try to advance under aircover; The range of your Zero/Betty teams will be the area in which you can operate with relative safety; need to bring the air HQs along too though.

Question: are the HQs air transportable? not sure about the torpedo ordnance

That is a fact.
Except for the first few weeks, I never let my Nell's and Betty's fly outside of escort range.

Air HQ's are air transportable.

(in reply to sven6345789)

Post #: 12

RE: Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/20/2010 2:06:52 PM

Titanwarrior89

Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline

May I ask how many ships have you lost by the end of may 42 as compared to the japs loss rate? Just wondering. You can take too much damage that will slow you down for months if your not careful. Has anyone yet playing pbem-not the ai moved into late 43 or early 44 and is "now" receiving hunddreds of units, ships, planes? I would really like to know.

If you read the AAR's they seem to be mostly short term out comes so far. Not saying your wrong, I would just like some one to post who has gotten that far in AE not Witp(late 43 or early 44)(pbem only)and is receiving all this material.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Counter-punch.� Counter-punch!� COUNTER-PUNCH!!!

Every plane, ship, and soldier killed is one less that Japan will never get back.� Lose a few ships as the Allies?� Heck--You're gonna get 1,000,000 replacements.� Falling back and not fighting is (in my opinion) the worst strategy in dealing with early Japan.� Will it be bloody?� YES!� Will it help you go over to offensive earlier then normal--YES!

< Message edited by Titanwarrior89 -- 2/20/2010 2:08:02 PM >

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Post #: 13

RE: Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/20/2010 2:14:10 PM

Mike Solli

Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

The joy of either side is learning your center, but let me offer this kernal for allied enthusiasts. One huge key to early momentum shifts is not the grand CV battle many think are necessary, it is engaging the Japs as they jump bases in the small lightly (or un-) escorted attacks, usually where there is little or no land based air to support them / harass you. The beginning of the momentum shift is when the japs feel they have to escort more or even every invasion with a CV and / or BB convoy. In many cases a half dozen DD's can turn invasions back where they would otherwise succeed.

This can be done right from the first days of the war, but know you will lose more assets than a traditional soft start approach. it is worth it in my view.

Hell, I feel that way from day one.

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Post #: 14

RE: Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/20/2010 2:29:01 PM

n01487477

Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

May I ask how many ships have you lost by the end of may 42 as compared to the japs loss rate? Just wondering. You can take too much damage that will slow you down for months if your not careful. Has anyone yet playing pbem-not the ai moved into late 43 or early 44 and is "now" receiving hunddreds of units, ships, planes? I would really like to know.

If you read the AAR's they seem to be mostly short term out comes so far. Not saying your wrong, I would just like some one to post who has gotten that far in AE not Witp(late 43 or early 44)(pbem only)and is receiving all this material.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Counter-punch.� Counter-punch!� COUNTER-PUNCH!!!

Every plane, ship, and soldier killed is one less that Japan will never get back.� Lose a few ships as the Allies?� Heck--You're gonna get 1,000,000 replacements.� Falling back and not fighting is (in my opinion) the worst strategy in dealing with early Japan.� Will it be bloody?� YES!� Will it help you go over to offensive earlier then normal--YES!

Oh ... well just look at what you'll eventually get ... and this is just shipping ... Yeah you must be "real" careful

... I'll refrain now

Attachment (1)

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EconDoc
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Post #: 15

RE: Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/20/2010 3:44:07 PM

Grotius

Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
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quote:

Air HQ's are air transportable

But don't you have to have the entire Air HQ at a base before you can use its torpedo ordnance? It would take a long time to air-transport an entire Air HQ, I would think.

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RE: Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/20/2010 3:44:17 PM

topeverest

Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline

Mike & Ttitanwarrior,

Let me just add that the Japs have wonderous opportunities throughout the game to win the VP race to the finish. In my experience it is the Japs game to lose. Players need to understand and be comfortable with the fact they cannot outright win the game barring divine intervention. They only need to outlast the Allies to win. To do this, in my view they need the following intellectual capital:
1. they need a good strategy in the beginning. What allied assets are they going to acquire. How are you going to manage your merchant fleet, and what are you going to do with your factories / economy. The first 60 days should be pretty fixed, and you should have a few contingency plans at least scetched out in your head. Plan offensively at least that far in advance during Victory Fever season.
2. dont give up the intiative. Make the allies take it from you.
2. use the principle of concentration of force whenever expecting a large naval or air battle. I cannot over-state this. This is perhaps the largest Japanese historical tactical failure. If you think the allies are coming at Guadalcanal, get everything possible on the sea and in the air within reaction range, etc. The fact the allies have many more forces is completely irrelevant. What matters are the forces at the point of the saber. You must be completely committed to the battles you want to fight, and not waste assets on any battle you deem unworthy. Said another way, an elastic defense where your best naval and air assets are pulsed when the allies commit to one of your targeted defense zones is the only way I have seen to slow down the beast. I have never seen a static defense strategy work, especially one where the outer ring is heavily fortified with land troops.
3. I have said this many times. The game usually comes down to one or two defensive amphibious battes in 43 or 44. Its about setting the allies back 6-12 months...and that is the game. The big question is if the Jap player will be ready when that time comes. If you can give the allies high losses and perhaps even turn a large invasion, you have won the game.
4. Know the victory conditions and how the allies win - the Americans can come from five directions: Aelutions, Marianas, Philippines (though NG and/or Ind), Coastal China, and overland china. Which one or ones will the Americans choose. The allies need a base within about 35 hexes of center of Japan to use their heavy bombers effectively. With several of those bases in their hands, the game already has a fixed life to it. What does this mean, Luzon, Tiawan, and Marianas are the the LAST line of defense. Plan your defenses accordinly. As a Jap player (at the latest) you have to be ready to expend the last of your air force and navy when the Allies come for one or more of those targets. Your army also should be appropriately deployed for these islands.

Within this framework, I think there are dozens of likely victory scenarios, depending on the enemy's intentions. The fun part is playing it.

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RE: Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/20/2010 5:19:29 PM

Halsey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

quote:

Air HQ's are air transportable

But don't you have to have the entire Air HQ at a base before you can use its torpedo ordnance? It would take a long time to air-transport an entire Air HQ, I would think.

Nah, doesn't take that long.

Once you get over 50% of the load cost transported, stop the transfer.
Then the game will make the transported LCU the parent unit.
After that happens, one turn, you can continue with the rest of the unit transfer.

(in reply to Grotius)

Post #: 18

RE: Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/20/2010 5:46:42 PM

kfmiller41

Posts: 1063
Joined: 3/25/2003
From: Saint Marys, Ga
Status: offline

You know that chart of forces is really frightening

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RE: Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/20/2010 6:09:23 PM

topeverest

Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
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Japs can win

Dont be fooled...

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RE: Allied fanboy playing as japs - 2/20/2010 6:10:52 PM

John 3rd

Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
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This is why I don't understand the fallback and defend strategy for Allied players Miller. The Japanese have to start strong, STAY STRONG, and still lose in late-1944/45. No matter what a good Japanese player does those numbers described above will flatten him. Simple as that.

I took heavy casualties playing the Allies with what I described earlier but I think the counter-punching technique thoroughly befuddled my Japanese Opponent in our campaign. I darned near retook the Luzon due to his not landing with ENOUGH force and trying to skip by the Philippines. As described above, it now appears to be easier to take the Philippines as a Japanese player in AE. Will have to see that play out in our new campaign and my 1x1 when I start it out.

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Post #: 21

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Allied fanboy playing as japs