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Fighter for escort? Smart or not?

 
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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> Fighter for escort? Smart or not? Page: [1]
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Fighter for escort? Smart or not? - 7/9/2002 1:00:00 AM   
bhdhtx

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 7/9/2002
From: DFW
Status: offline 		I am very frustrated with how the fighter air to air is calculated out. I can have 23 zeroes escort 12 Nells and the cap of the base that I strike will have 4 P-40's. You would think.."Hey thats no problem" but somehow the P-40s will go past the 23 zeroes unscathed and shoot down a couple of bombers. NOW, I don't know about you guys, but it seems that after playing this over and over, it is useless to have fighter escort since even 6 fighters can fly past 40 fighters to shoot down my bombers. Something has to be done about that.
Next, I think it would be great to actually tell a strike from a carrier based TF where to strike. So if you wanna strike a TF you know you want to hit and not what the comp thinks you should be able to hit. Even designate a hex to go to thinking a TF might be there. Isn't that what the US did in MIdway. So the way the game is set up now, you really cant make any historic moves.
I love the game and will play it but there are some things that need to be fixed and I am very appreciative that people do know that there are wargamers out there that appreciate new games being made.
:)
Post #: 1
- 7/9/2002 1:29:52 AM   
corbulo

 

Posts: 213
Joined: 2/28/2002
From: rigel 5
Status: offline 		I have noticed the same things. I had 30 zeros CAP over Lae. 3 Hudsons come over. I lose 1 zero and 1 hudson is destroyed. I thought to myself - maybe 30 is too many and they were getting in each others way. To my way of thinking all 3 should have been destroyed w/o loss of zeros. I cant remember if the zero was damaged or destroyed. The Zero is rated very poorly in this game. As an interceptor I agree. Read Samurai, eg. Sakai said they just could not shoot down a b-17. It took alot of zeros and alot of time to shoot down just one. I think that experienced zero pilots against p-40s, p-39, and undefended avengers (at midway they destroyed almost every avenger) should do well.

_____________________________

virtute omne regatur

(in reply to bhdhtx)
Post #: 2
Re: Fighter for escort? Smart or not? - 7/9/2002 1:57:56 AM   
Spooky


Posts: 816
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: Froggy Land
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by bhdhtx
[B]I am very frustrated with how the fighter air to air is calculated out. I can have 23 zeroes escort 12 Nells and the cap of the base that I strike will have 4 P-40's. You would think.."Hey thats no problem" but somehow the P-40s will go past the 23 zeroes unscathed and shoot down a couple of bombers. NOW, I don't know about you guys, but it seems that after playing this over and over, it is useless to have fighter escort since even 6 fighters can fly past 40 fighters to shoot down my bombers. Something has to be done about that.
Next, I think it would be great to actually tell a strike from a carrier based TF where to strike. So if you wanna strike a TF you know you want to hit and not what the comp thinks you should be able to hit. Even designate a hex to go to thinking a TF might be there. Isn't that what the US did in MIdway. So the way the game is set up now, you really cant make any historic moves.
I love the game and will play it but there are some things that need to be fixed and I am very appreciative that people do know that there are wargamers out there that appreciate new games being made.
:) [/B][/QUOTE]

Yep, that's a good idea :) Keep on sending all your bombers without escort fighters ... and I think everybody will want to play PBEM games with you :D

For the Japanese, escort fighters are compulsory since their bombers are quite easy to shoot down ... and the bombers replacement rates are not that high. In all my 1942 games, Japanese bomber losses are quite low if the bombers are escorted by zeros ... but when the zeros are not there, my pilots quickly improve their kills ratio :)

(in reply to bhdhtx)
Post #: 3
- 7/9/2002 6:50:49 AM   
Blitzer

 

Posts: 99
Joined: 7/3/2002
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		And as for the issue of target selection, I'm sure the crews of Neosho and Sims are right behind you all the way. ;)

Blitzer

(in reply to bhdhtx)
Post #: 4
- 7/9/2002 7:42:55 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		In most computer games the AI is not very good.

Usually the only advantage the AI gets is that it understands the game mechanics. It can allocate exactly the correct amount of supplies to the correct bases. And it can choose exactly the correct ships to carry supplies in the most efficient way. The AI can do all calculations in a matter of seconds.

But in terms of strategy and tactics, most game AIs are not very good. So the designers give the AI some advantages. And the designers don’t tell the players.

Its only if the unusual thing happens consistently in H2H games that we can claim there is a problem.

(in reply to bhdhtx)
Post #: 5
- 7/18/2002 3:49:39 AM   
motaman

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 7/17/2002
Status: offline 		This would probably depend on the altitude of your bomb run, but i'm assuming youre making runs below 10000.

In my experience with flight sims, zeros are not considered fast. P40's could have gained altitude over the formation and dove in using whats called "boom and zoom" tactics, scattering the formations (In the Battle of Britian some RAF pilots would fly directly above a formation, roll over and dive straight down, screaming right through the middle. Seeing what looks like a suicide attack the german bombers would scatter.). If the zero tries to immedietly dive to gain enough speed to catch the p40's it wont make it, and it'll be far away from the bombers. If done properly with 1-2 p40's on each pass it can cause the formations of fighters to; try and follow attackers, Cover their own a**, or climb. The latter would suggest a portion of experienced fighters trying to gain an advantage, but this may be to late and the bombers will have done their run.

I'm not saying the game duplicates this, it's just a thought off the top of my head. But it could justify what happened.

(in reply to bhdhtx)
Post #: 6
- 7/18/2002 4:09:39 AM   
Spooky


Posts: 816
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: Froggy Land
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by corbulo
[B]I have noticed the same things. I had 30 zeros CAP over Lae. 3 Hudsons come over. I lose 1 zero and 1 hudson is destroyed. I thought to myself - maybe 30 is too many and they were getting in each others way. To my way of thinking all 3 should have been destroyed w/o loss of zeros. I cant remember if the zero was damaged or destroyed. The Zero is rated very poorly in this game. As an interceptor I agree. Read Samurai, eg. Sakai said they just could not shoot down a b-17. It took alot of zeros and alot of time to shoot down just one. I think that experienced zero pilots against p-40s, p-39, and undefended avengers (at midway they destroyed almost every avenger) should do well. [/B][/QUOTE]

BTW, there wasn't any Avenger at Midway ... maybe you are confusing them with the poor TBD Devastador ... and they were very easy targets :(

(in reply to bhdhtx)
Post #: 7
- 7/18/2002 4:45:08 AM   
XPav

 

Posts: 550
Joined: 7/10/2002
From: Northern California
Status: offline 		There were indeed Avengers at Midway, flying from Midway Island. A detachment of VT-8 (the same VT-8 from Hornet) flew their brand new TBFs against the Japanese carriers, and 5 of 6 were shot down.

[URL=http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/midway/mid-4a.htm]TBFs at Midway[/URL]

(in reply to bhdhtx)
Post #: 8
- 7/18/2002 4:49:36 AM   
XPav

 

Posts: 550
Joined: 7/10/2002
From: Northern California
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe 98
[B]In most computer games the AI is not very good.

Usually the only advantage the AI gets is that it understands the game mechanics. It can allocate exactly the correct amount of supplies to the correct bases. And it can choose exactly the correct ships to carry supplies in the most efficient way. The AI can do all calculations in a matter of seconds.

[/B][/QUOTE]

The AI in most wargames (like TOAW) falls into the "idiot savant" category. Excellent at juggling supplies and getting in the most work possible, but horrible at figuring out what to do when confronted with a human player.

The AI in TOAW could be easily befuddled with paratroopers/helicopters/amphibious troops.

The last scenario of UV I played (#4? New Guinea-only Gili-Gili/Port Moresby fight) seemed to have the AI be stupid though, but I don't know if that's what it was supposed to do. It flew all its air missions from Rabaul to attack Gili Gili, and my crack Australian P-40E squadrons there took a massive toll of bombers and fighters. Since there wasn't enough aviation support at Rabaul, they stopped coming after a little while. :)

These two Australian P-40E squadrons had some darn experienced pilots.

This was also the scenario in which I learned that Wirraways suck.

(in reply to bhdhtx)
Post #: 9
- 7/18/2002 5:03:00 AM   
1089

 

Posts: 210
Joined: 7/4/2001
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by XPav
[B]

This was also the scenario in which I learned that Wirraways suck. [/B][/QUOTE]

Use the Wirraways for ground attack, never CAP. That way when they finally get upgraded to Boomerangs, they'll have experience. Or else just leave them in Brisbane on Training.

kp

_____________________________

The Earth is but a hollow nougat, reverberating with the sounds of the big bands... :cool:

(in reply to bhdhtx)
Post #: 10
- 7/18/2002 5:09:47 AM   
Spooky


Posts: 816
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: Froggy Land
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by XPav
[B]There were indeed Avengers at Midway, flying from Midway Island. A detachment of VT-8 (the same VT-8 from Hornet) flew their brand new TBFs against the Japanese carriers, and 5 of 6 were shot down.

[URL=http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/midway/mid-4a.htm]TBFs at Midway[/URL] [/B][/QUOTE]

Yep, you are right :) I meant no Avengers among the US carrier planes ;)

Next time I'll try not to forget the LBA :D

(in reply to bhdhtx)
Post #: 11
Air Combat Reports - 7/18/2002 5:21:15 AM   
Black Cat

 

Posts: 615
Joined: 7/4/2002
Status: offline 		This may be old news to some but I`ve noticed that the Air Combat Report Screen displayed right after the battle is often not in agreement with the actual Sq. data on the Base/Aircraft Screen.

(in reply to bhdhtx)
Post #: 12
- 7/18/2002 6:04:11 AM   
Didz


Posts: 728
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: UK
Status: offline 		One observation on the performance of CAP's which may or may not be relevant to the situation described is that over many weeks of sending escorted raids against Rabaul and receiving escorted raids on Dobadura and Gilli Gilli I have noticed that supply levels have a serious impact upon the performance of CAP's.

I have witnessed Rabaul send up a huge CAP of Zeros', Toni's and Oscar's which simply didn't fire a single shot at my planes. Whilst, at the same time I have seend a smal CAP put up a magnificent fight and the main difference being whether Rabual has been able to get supplies through.

For instance I always know I'm going to get a warm reception from Rabaul just after a visit by the SCVTF because my planes have been distracted from sinking the enemies barges from several days and so Rabaul has managed to top up its supply level.

_____________________________

Didz
Fortis balore et armis

(in reply to bhdhtx)
Post #: 13
- 7/18/2002 12:06:38 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		"You would think.."Hey thats no problem" but somehow the P-40s will go past the 23 zeroes unscathed and shoot down a couple of bombers. NOW, I don't know about you guys, but it seems that after playing this over and over, it is useless to have fighter escort since even 6 fighters can fly past 40 fighters to shoot down my bombers."

If you played the same turn over and over again in hopes of seeing a different result, but did not issue any different orders, then you most definitely saw the same result. The easiest way to describe this is to say that the results are set after you hit End Orders Phase. If you want to see different results, you have to change orders to at least one unit. I hope that else can better explain the way the turn seed is established...

At any rate, this is why you seemed to see the ahistorical result every time. I have seen those occaisional lucky die rolls, on both sides. However, I think that you'll see the game brings out mostly historical air/air results in the long run.

(in reply to bhdhtx)
Post #: 14
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