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Jap AVG included in patch!! - 2/24/2010 1:17:30 AM   
Zigurat666


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Good to see the DEV's finally realized that not all americans thought the japs would lose. Some even defected and participated as the famed

"Flying Carp"




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RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 2/24/2010 1:23:48 AM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zigurat666

Good to see the DEV's finally realized that not all americans thought the japs would lose. Some even defected and participated as the famed

"Flying Carp"


And their leading airman was ESPN's Sports Guy! Now THERE's a skeleton in the closet!

(in reply to Zigurat666)
Post #: 2
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 2/24/2010 1:40:50 AM   
jb123


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According to "War without Mercy" MacArthur actually thought the Clark Field air strike at war's beggining was so masterful that it must have been done by "European Mercenaries" I guess he didn't think the Japanese capable.

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Post #: 3
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 2/24/2010 1:51:43 AM   
Brady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jb123

According to "War without Mercy" MacArthur actually thought the Clark Field air strike at war's beggining was so masterful that it must have been done by "European Mercenaries" I guess he didn't think the Japanese capable.




A sentiment still shared by many today.

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Post #: 4
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 2/24/2010 3:26:26 AM   
Don Bowen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady


quote:

ORIGINAL: jb123

According to "War without Mercy" MacArthur actually thought the Clark Field air strike at war's beggining was so masterful that it must have been done by "European Mercenaries" I guess he didn't think the Japanese capable.




A sentiment still shared by many today.


And many do not think dugout Doug was capable!

(in reply to Brady)
Post #: 5
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 2/24/2010 5:53:11 AM   
Twotribes


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Joined: 2/15/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady


quote:

ORIGINAL: jb123

According to "War without Mercy" MacArthur actually thought the Clark Field air strike at war's beggining was so masterful that it must have been done by "European Mercenaries" I guess he didn't think the Japanese capable.




A sentiment still shared by many today.


And many do not think dugout Doug was capable!


He was ORDERED out. He was an ass to be sure but he does not deserve that title.

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 6
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 2/24/2010 6:05:05 AM   
LoBaron


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Totally wrong! We all know that the AVG pilots, while competent, never were CV trained!

To make a long story short thats the private elite squad of Maj.Gen. B.Affleck who, after
winning the BoB and defending PH, finally realized that the Imperial Japanese claims were rightful
and so decided to defect to the HI´s using his modified Tambor class SS "Red October" (yes, weve
seen the remake with James Bond but we all know where this cheap copy originates!) in late 1942.

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Post #: 7
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 2/24/2010 8:14:49 AM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Totally wrong! We all know that the AVG pilots, while competent, never were CV trained!

To make a long story short thats the private elite squad of Maj.Gen. B.Affleck who, after
winning the BoB and defending PH, finally realized that the Imperial Japanese claims were rightful
and so decided to defect to the HI´s using his modified Tambor class SS "Red October" (yes, weve
seen the remake with James Bond but we all know where this cheap copy originates!) in late 1942.


ROFL. Sky Captain and The World of Tomorrow felt much more realistic than that movie featuring Mr. B. "Pancake Head" Affleck

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 8
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 2/24/2010 2:03:10 PM   
morganbj


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

He was ORDERED out. He was an ass to be sure but he does not deserve that title.

Uh ..., I think the word is a reference to his staying in the tunnels at Corregidor and not visiting the troops where the fighting was going on. I don't think it has to do with him leaving (being ordered out). Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 9
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 2/24/2010 5:31:14 PM   
timtom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Totally wrong! We all know that the AVG pilots, while competent, never were CV trained!



Actually quite a few of them were ex-USN :)

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Post #: 10
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 2/24/2010 6:41:57 PM   
Brady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: timtom

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Totally wrong! We all know that the AVG pilots, while competent, never were CV trained!



Actually quite a few of them were ex-USN :)


Pappy Notes the following, in his book:

p.18

"Most of the piolets waiting to go overseas were two or three years younger than I was, and they had virtualy no flying experance other than what they had receaved in flight school. Some I recoginised as recent graduates from Pensacola. There was only one thing to beleave, naturally; all the vast experance was already in China...."

This last part, the referance to the men already In China, was a quip regarding the things the head hunter had told him, only the best of everything was being sent to equip this unit, and in the end that proved to be not the case...


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Post #: 11
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 2/25/2010 2:21:15 PM   
joey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady


quote:

ORIGINAL: jb123

According to "War without Mercy" MacArthur actually thought the Clark Field air strike at war's beggining was so masterful that it must have been done by "European Mercenaries" I guess he didn't think the Japanese capable.




A sentiment still shared by many today.


And many do not think dugout Doug was capable!


He was ORDERED out. He was an ass to be sure but he does not deserve that title.


Actually if you studied Dugout Dug, you would probably agree he does deserve the title. His poor generalship, shown over in many battles, rivals many similarly poors generals in early WWI. I read somewhere a long time ago that the president was said to remark about Doug "He is only good at one thing, promoting himself!"

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 12
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 2/25/2010 2:59:27 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady


quote:

ORIGINAL: jb123

According to "War without Mercy" MacArthur actually thought the Clark Field air strike at war's beggining was so masterful that it must have been done by "European Mercenaries" I guess he didn't think the Japanese capable.




A sentiment still shared by many today.


And many do not think dugout Doug was capable!


He was ORDERED out. He was an ass to be sure but he does not deserve that title.


Actually if you studied Dugout Dug, you would probably agree he does deserve the title. His poor generalship, shown over in many battles, rivals many similarly poors generals in early WWI. I read somewhere a long time ago that the president was said to remark about Doug "He is only good at one thing, promoting himself!"


Although his invasion of Inchon during the Korean Conflict was a stroke of genius. Of course that only came about because he was too stubborn to take advice from anyone else on the matter. You be the judge.

There is no doubt that he had a large ego.

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Post #: 13
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 2/25/2010 3:04:23 PM   
Sardaukar


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His operations in New Guinea were strategically sound too. Pity he had the obsession of Philippines and insisted on totally useless landing in Leyte...place turned out unsuitable for air bases etc.

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Post #: 14
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 4/8/2010 2:14:29 PM   
xj900uk

 

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MacArthur was the master of PR and obsessed with his image to the American public. Politicians and generals should take note of his unquestionable genius in this field.

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 15
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 4/8/2010 3:37:42 PM   
morganbj


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Oh, he's not alone in that ability. He's definitely not alone.

(in reply to xj900uk)
Post #: 16
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 4/8/2010 3:39:00 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady


quote:

ORIGINAL: jb123

According to "War without Mercy" MacArthur actually thought the Clark Field air strike at war's beggining was so masterful that it must have been done by "European Mercenaries" I guess he didn't think the Japanese capable.




A sentiment still shared by many today.


And many do not think dugout Doug was capable!

A sentiment still shared by many today.

_____________________________


(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 17
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 4/8/2010 4:18:49 PM   
sfbaytf

 

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My opinion of MacArthur is he was capable of brilliance at times, but could be inconsistant due to psychological issues that were not well understood at the time. He was a general of the time and probably would not make it in today's military were your are scrutinized under a microscope 24x7 and subjected to a profit driven and ideogical devided media.

He had an ego, but so do most generals. Look at Patton. He had an ego as well as a taste for the good life and women. He would be crusified today for his well known womanizing.

Eisenhower I think had his ego under control. There are rumors of his affair with his British Ade. Ike would later became president and believed in raising taxes, big government infastructure program and warned the country of the industrial military complex would be labled a "socialist" or "communist" by conservative media.

Getting back to MacArthur. He had alot of supporters and believers back in those days. When he returned from overseas on more than one occasion he was met by large and enthusiastic crowds. Some of the streets and highways where I live bear his name. IMO the Korean War shows his style- a big risk taker that could win big as he did in Inchon, but at the same time someone who didn't know when to pull in his chips as the Chosun Resevoir and the whole episode leading up to that demonstrated.

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RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 4/8/2010 5:52:34 PM   
Arimus

 

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Critiquing one of the greatest generals in american history...
Talk about ego...

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RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 4/8/2010 6:23:36 PM   
sfbaytf

 

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McArthur is one of those figures that tends to bring out alot of opinions. Some think he was over rated others not. I have my thoughts and opinions about him most of which is formed by what I seen and read about him. Some of it is also formed by what those who served under him have said about him.

(in reply to Arimus)
Post #: 20
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 4/9/2010 12:09:24 AM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arimus

Critiquing one of the greatest generals in american history...
Talk about ego...


Well, if ego is the single criterion for "greatness" then he was certainly one of the greatest generals in american history.

(in reply to Arimus)
Post #: 21
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 4/9/2010 2:54:54 AM   
Misconduct


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One thing I learned about my 8 years in the marine corps, you either are a politician or a soldier, there is no equal in the process, Doug was a great politician, Rommel was a proven combat leader. Goring was proven to be a great politician inventing new medals to show how superior he is, Patton was a good combat leader. You can go down the line and name every one in the service and decide if they were a combat soldier or not.

< Message edited by Misconduct -- 4/9/2010 2:55:28 AM >

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Post #: 22
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 4/9/2010 4:03:56 AM   
sfbaytf

 

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I think most generals throughout history have been politicians to one degree or another. It comes with the territory. McArthur lead large armies in 2 war-WW2 and Korea and he couldn't have done that on political skill alone. Its pretty well documented by historians that McArthur suffered from bouts of emotional highs and lows. Whether that was a bi-polar disorder I don't know.

He made mistakes during the Phillipines, but what General didn't make costly mistakes during WW2? I doubt any other General -Patton, Eisenhower, Bradley could have changed the eventual outcome in 1941. The Phillipines was woefully unprepared and America was in the wrong mindset. There was a lot of isolationism and anti-war feeling and the US military as a whole was unprepared. Even a year after Pearl Harbor the US military was lacking as was shown at Kasserine.

Generals throughout history have been engaging in politics to get the juciest mission or get into action. Thats how you make a name and get promoted. The marines in general loathed McArthur and in many cases the US Army and I'm sure the opposite was true too. I can't recall who said it, but one prominent general once remarked something to the effect "The US Marines have a propaganda machine that rivals Stalins".

Politics and the military or any other large organization go hand in hand. Even in modern times. During the 1991 Gulf War the marines wanted to make an amphibious landing in Kuwait and lobbied for it, but Schwarkopf said no.

Also during the Gulf War news articles appeared were US Navy pilots complained the Air Force who were in command of the air campaign were calling off their fighters and vectoring Air Force fighters instead to air-to-air contacts. Perhaps all the attention given to Naval Aviation after the movie "Top Gun" may have ruffled some feathers in the Air Force.



(in reply to Misconduct)
Post #: 23
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 4/9/2010 6:26:42 AM   
YankeeAirRat


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The Philippines, Guam, and most of the other Western terrortories to the west of the defences were ham-strung by the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922. In that that treaty Article XIX, aka the fortification clause, basically stated that everyone owns what they owned at that moment and except for what was already built or being built could not expand thier defensive fortifications and naval bases.
quote:

The United States, the British Empire and Japan agree that the status quo at the time of the signing of the present Treaty, with

Page 253

regard to fortifications and naval bases, shall be maintained in their respective territories and possessions specified hereunder:

(1) The insular possessions which the United States now holds or may hereafter acquire in the Pacific Ocean, except (a) those adjacent to the coast of the United States, Alaska and the Panama Canal Zone, not including the Aleutian Islands, and (b) the Hawaiian Islands;

(2) Hong Kong and the insular possessions which the British Empire now holds or may hereafter acquire in the Pacific Ocean, east of the meridian of 110° east longitude, except (a) those adjacent to the coast of Canada, (b) the Commonwealth of Australia and its Territories, and (c) New Zealand;

(3) The following insular territories and possessions of Japan in the Pacific Ocean, to wit: the Kurile Islands, the Bonin Islands, Amami-Oshima, the Loochoo Islands, Formosa and the Pescadores, and any insular territories or possessions in the Pacific Ocean which Japan may hereafter acquire.

The maintenance of the status quo under the foregoing provisions implies that no new fortifications or naval bases shall be established in the territories and possessions specified; that no measures shall be taken to increase the existing naval facilities for the repair and maintenance of naval forces, and that no increase shall be made in the coast defences of the territories and possessions above specified. This restriction, however, does not preclude such repair and replacement of worn-out weapons and equipment as is customary in naval and military establishments in time of peace.


Cause of this clause places like the PI, Guam, New Britian, New Guinea, etc could not be upgraded with either new forts, naval bases, or even army bases. Cause of this those places were already unprepared when the war started almost twenty years later. I would also suggest that this treaty heavily influenced the Color War Plans and the later Rainbow War Plans (note they were different plans, Color War Plans are the classic Gold, Red, Green, Orange war plans; while the Rainbow War plans were the combinations of those previous plans into one over arching plan). Read the treaty here, Full text of WA Naval Treaty 1922

Also note that Douglas MacArthur had to fight against the shadow of his family. Remember that his father Arthur MacArthur Jr was a Medal Of Honor winner, Colonel in the Wisconsin Militia during the Civil War and later lead the Philippines Expedition during the Spanish-American War and later helping to supress the Filippino Insurrection at the turn of the century. Later becoming a military governor of the Philippines before being fired by William Taft (the civilian governor). That is a big shadow to fight out from espically when the US Army that you joined was still filled with officers that either served under or with your father (such as Blackjack Pershing). So he had to work on making himself bigger then his father and succeeding quicker, one of those pyschological faults that he probably had.

Going back to the orginal post, it looks like one of the old problems from WiTP has popped up again. I wonder if this is still related to the sync bug.

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RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 4/9/2010 10:07:49 AM   
Twotribes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

My opinion of MacArthur is he was capable of brilliance at times, but could be inconsistant due to psychological issues that were not well understood at the time. He was a general of the time and probably would not make it in today's military were your are scrutinized under a microscope 24x7 and subjected to a profit driven and ideogical devided media.

He had an ego, but so do most generals. Look at Patton. He had an ego as well as a taste for the good life and women. He would be crusified today for his well known womanizing.

Eisenhower I think had his ego under control. There are rumors of his affair with his British Ade. Ike would later became president and believed in raising taxes, big government infastructure program and warned the country of the industrial military complex would be labled a "socialist" or "communist" by conservative media.

Getting back to MacArthur. He had alot of supporters and believers back in those days. When he returned from overseas on more than one occasion he was met by large and enthusiastic crowds. Some of the streets and highways where I live bear his name. IMO the Korean War shows his style- a big risk taker that could win big as he did in Inchon, but at the same time someone who didn't know when to pull in his chips as the Chosun Resevoir and the whole episode leading up to that demonstrated.


He was not the General that ordered the Marines to advance and separate at Chosin. He IS the reason the Chinese entered the war.

(in reply to sfbaytf)
Post #: 25
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 4/9/2010 11:00:30 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

My opinion of MacArthur is he was capable of brilliance at times, but could be inconsistant due to psychological issues that were not well understood at the time.



I'd call him an ego on steroids. Physically brave, he was a moral coward..., which is how he aquired the nickname "Dugout Doug". While the men under his command were starving on Bataan, he remained isolated on Corregador with the exception of one very brief visit to the rear areas. Why? Because it was his stupidity that put them on half-rations the day they arrived by totally squandering multiple opportunities to stockpile the rations called for under War Plan Orange.

Which left him ashamed and afraid to face the men who's suffering he'd caused..., and left them feeling abandoned by their commander. Nor did he do any better in Paupua New Guinea, where his Australian troops felt his disdain, and his American troops realized that he didn't have a clue about what he was ordering them to do. If he hadn't already been made into a "hero" by the Public Relations Dept., he would probably have been sacked as an incompetent bungler after Buna.

No other commander on either side in WW II was allowed to screw up as often as MacArthur. Eventually in 1944 he finally figured it out and began producing some competent operations. Unfortunately, instead of being humbled by his failures, he surrounded himself with syncophants and became convinced he was the next best thing to the "second coming". His real glory year were as the "Emperor of Japan"..., where his God Complex was actually a plus.



(in reply to sfbaytf)
Post #: 26
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 4/9/2010 2:24:15 PM   
Charbroiled


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Oh, sure....hide another MacAurther discussion under the disquise of a game bug.

Clever!!!

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Post #: 27
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 4/9/2010 2:35:47 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

Actually if you studied Dugout Dug, you would probably agree he does deserve the title.


I have studied him and no, the title is undeserved because according to Manchester, he was given the nickname because the troops "thought" that he was hiding in the back, safe in his bunker while they risked their necks night and day. While Mac 'was' in the back during the PI and only visited the front lines once, he did not "hide" in his bunker but regularily refused to take cover when air raids would come overhead. This was not an isolated incident. Mac would go on risking his life right up to the war's end, visiting the front, acompanying paratroopers on a run and when encountering sniper fire, refusing to dive into foxholes or retreat back to the rear. No high level commander risked his hide more times than him. Some actually thought the man had a death wish.

Mac had his flaws...but cowardice was not one of them.

oh....and on the subject of the thread? i'd post a save to the tech forum.

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Post #: 28
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 4/9/2010 3:38:15 PM   
Misconduct


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Something amusing on the subject, I was checking my Panzer General 2 forums, and I noticed 2 years ago was the same argument involving Mac, usually ends up with him being a coward, and nobody wants to rescue him off phillippines. I think it was back in WITP forums also we had this lovely topic.

Not sure if he's a great general in AE, if he does show up i'm sure the latrines will need to be inspected in australia, I need an aggressive rating close to dugout for that.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 29
RE: Jap AVG included in patch!! - 4/9/2010 3:51:05 PM   
Nikademus


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his command post Bataan suffered the fewest casualties of the war vs other US led Theaters. He was doing something right. The facinating part is that given his smarts, bravery and genuine concern for the troops that he was viewed by the average joe as a tin plated dictator with delusions of grandaur that cared nothing for their well being. Even when he would visit the front he was viewed with wary suspicsion.

Manchester's theory on this skism was that Mac was cast from Edwardian 19th Century mode and that this rubbed the average american the wrong way in the same way that Ike's modest, "just an average good ol down to earth Iowa farmboy" image endeared him to his troops and the public.

the challenge is to seperate the image and Mac's admitedly huge ego (Manchester does not shy away from citing his flaws) from his skills as Theater commander.



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