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RE: HPS new games - 11/30/2011 3:48:24 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=60353


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RE: HPS new games - 12/6/2011 10:39:15 AM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		I just read a thread about it on Wargamer and I'm shocked to hear about the state in which PoA2 is even several years after release, which includes frequent crashes to desktop. The HPS page of the game doesn't mention it anywhere. It's an unethical business practice. An unfinished faulty product should be clearly marked as such.

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RE: HPS new games - 12/6/2011 12:14:59 PM   
redcoat


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HPS are also releasing another game in their Ancient Warfare series: Roman Civil Wars. Linkie.

I have the Punic Wars game from the same series. It's good, but it takes forever to play a large scenario. Which is one of the reasons I play Field of Glory a lot more often.

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Post #: 213
RE: HPS new games - 12/6/2011 4:57:20 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

I just read a thread about it on Wargamer and I'm shocked to hear about the state in which PoA2 is even several years after release, which includes frequent crashes to desktop. The HPS page of the game doesn't mention it anywhere. It's an unethical business practice. An unfinished faulty product should be clearly marked as such.



You will also find over at Gamesuqad that many over there with the latest patch don't have the issues that arise in the Wargamer thread...

I had POA2 a couple of years ago and never encountered constant crashing...

So check some more forums before making any rash judgements...I have every confidnce in Tigers as I've played poA2...the only concern maybe theAI...but being I'm usless at wargames and like winning it's not a problem really for me.

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Post #: 214
RE: HPS new games - 12/6/2011 6:47:50 PM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

I just read a thread about it on Wargamer and I'm shocked to hear about the state in which PoA2 is even several years after release, which includes frequent crashes to desktop. The HPS page of the game doesn't mention it anywhere. It's an unethical business practice. An unfinished faulty product should be clearly marked as such.



You will also find over at Gamesuqad that many over there with the latest patch don't have the issues that arise in the Wargamer thread...

I had POA2 a couple of years ago and never encountered constant crashing...

So, it's related to some specific hardware/software configurations?

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

So check some more forums before making any rash judgements...I have every confidnce in Tigers as I've played poA2...the only concern maybe theAI...but being I'm usless at wargames and like winning it's not a problem really for me.

What is the AI in PoA 2 like? Anyway, I'd love to play something set in WWII with realistic C3, including a friendly fog of war.

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Post #: 215
RE: HPS new games - 12/6/2011 6:52:50 PM   
Phatguy

 

Posts: 1348
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From: Buffalo,ny
Status: offline 		Tigers Unleashed needs better graphics......I really dont need state of the art for a wargame but something akin to the late 80s-early 90's in not acceptable in the 21st century.......Especially for what they are charging for it......

< Message edited by apathetic lurker -- 12/6/2011 6:53:24 PM >

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RE: HPS new games - 12/7/2011 12:41:45 AM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		It would mean hiring someone to do the graphics which would raise the price even more. Also, what does the artistic value of graphics have to do with time?

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 12/7/2011 12:43:22 AM >

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Post #: 217
RE: HPS new games - 12/7/2011 1:12:43 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		I reported the crashes in Wargamer and I am using the latest patch.  Someone suggested that it is because of the scenario that I created or the map that I used. The very few scenarios that comes with the game are more stable.  But if the game is supposed to be a sadbox game all the parts should work well together no matter what the setting is.  

Anyway, hopefully they do things right with Tigers Unleashed. 

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RE: HPS new games - 12/7/2011 2:37:06 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

Tigers Unleashed needs better graphics......I really dont need state of the art for a wargame but something akin to the late 80s-early 90's in not acceptable in the 21st century.......Especially for what they are charging for it......


I can live with "primitive" so long as the interface is easy to interpret and use. In particular, I hope that the developer ditches its (once) trademark "3-D views."

Question:

Did HPS lose the poxy 3-D view in its First Blitzkrieg game? If so, I just may storm over there and buy a copy!

< Message edited by Prince of Eckmühl -- 12/7/2011 4:34:21 PM >

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RE: HPS new games - 12/7/2011 3:13:06 AM   
Phatguy

 

Posts: 1348
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From: Buffalo,ny
Status: offline 		Meh....I need better then primitive graphics..... There are indie developers, even more indie, mom and pop and poorer than HPS who have tossed out games with better graphics. HPS has been around for a long time. Im sure they could have scrounged up some spare change from between the cushions and found a artist....

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RE: HPS new games - 12/7/2011 3:22:48 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

Meh....I need better then primitive graphics..... There are indie developers, even more indie, mom and pop and poorer than HPS who have tossed out games with better graphics. HPS has been around for a long time. Im sure they could have scrounged up some spare change from between the cushions and found a artist....


I can't say that I disagree, but there's been a small army of folks who have followed around in the developers' footsteps and produced updated graphics for the games. The single most vexing concern facing HPS titles, IMHO, is the fact that those same volunteers CAN'T do a darn thing with the simply awful 3-D views that are included in many of their titles, including the Panzer Campaign series.


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RE: HPS new games - 12/7/2011 3:55:55 AM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

Meh....I need better then primitive graphics..... There are indie developers, even more indie, mom and pop and poorer than HPS who have tossed out games with better graphics. HPS has been around for a long time. Im sure they could have scrounged up some spare change from between the cushions and found a artist....

The Indie scene almost universally produces games with primitive mechanics and poor level design that are regressive in comparison to good old games of their genres. On the other hand, from what I've read, Tigers Unleashed is a cutting-edge masterpiece mechanics-wise. It's easy to have good graphics on low budget when you don't have to deliver an extremely complex game.

One thing that I don't understand, though is why they didn't try to adopt some consistent, simple art style instead of mixing flat background with shaded trees and houses.

Still, I'd take an ugly game with great mechanics over a game with good graphics that is mechanically regressive.

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Post #: 222
RE: HPS new games - 12/7/2011 5:04:29 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

One thing that I don't understand, though is why they didn't try to adopt some consistent, simple art style instead of mixing flat background with shaded trees and houses.

Still, I'd take an ugly game with great mechanics over a game with good graphics that is mechanically regressive.

One possibility that you might want to consider is that the developer is truckin' down a path such that the graphics are 100% open to being modified. While this certainly wasn't the case with the previous titles, the option could actually produce a decent looking game, community add-ons being what they've proved to be in the past.


< Message edited by Prince of Eckmühl -- 12/7/2011 5:05:45 AM >

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RE: HPS new games - 12/7/2011 5:43:51 AM   
Phatguy

 

Posts: 1348
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Buffalo,ny
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

One thing that I don't understand, though is why they didn't try to adopt some consistent, simple art style instead of mixing flat background with shaded trees and houses.

Still, I'd take an ugly game with great mechanics over a game with good graphics that is mechanically regressive.

One possibility that you might want to consider is that the developer is truckin' down a path such that the graphics are 100% open to being modified. While this certainly wasn't the case with the previous titles, the option could actually produce a decent looking game, community add-ons being what they've proved to be in the past.



True, but it seems that a lot of developers/publishers etc etc are taking the easy way out. Charge an arm and a leg for a game and let the modding community finish it....

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RE: HPS new games - 12/7/2011 3:01:03 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

One thing that I don't understand, though is why they didn't try to adopt some consistent, simple art style instead of mixing flat background with shaded trees and houses.

Still, I'd take an ugly game with great mechanics over a game with good graphics that is mechanically regressive.

One possibility that you might want to consider is that the developer is truckin' down a path such that the graphics are 100% open to being modified. While this certainly wasn't the case with the previous titles, the option could actually produce a decent looking game, community add-ons being what they've proved to be in the past.



True, but it seems that a lot of developers/publishers etc etc are taking the easy way out. Charge an arm and a leg for a game and let the modding community finish it....

What easy way out? Do you know any other games that have the features of Tigers Unleashed? And who's going to fund these graphics? All the 200 people who want to play a realistic wargame?

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People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
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RE: HPS new games - 12/7/2011 4:25:48 PM   
Phatguy

 

Posts: 1348
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Buffalo,ny
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

One thing that I don't understand, though is why they didn't try to adopt some consistent, simple art style instead of mixing flat background with shaded trees and houses.

Still, I'd take an ugly game with great mechanics over a game with good graphics that is mechanically regressive.

One possibility that you might want to consider is that the developer is truckin' down a path such that the graphics are 100% open to being modified. While this certainly wasn't the case with the previous titles, the option could actually produce a decent looking game, community add-ons being what they've proved to be in the past.



True, but it seems that a lot of developers/publishers etc etc are taking the easy way out. Charge an arm and a leg for a game and let the modding community finish it....

What easy way out? Do you know any other games that have the features of Tigers Unleashed? And who's going to fund these graphics? All the 200 people who want to play a realistic wargame?


I'm talking in generalities...I did say a lot of dev/pub.....not just HPS
And thats talking the big boys too, not just indie ones.

And i am sure there are way more than 200 people waiting to buy it. If it was such a niche product HPS would have gone the way of the Dodo bird long ago......

Tillers games under the HPS umbrella had decent graphics.....why the regression?

< Message edited by apathetic lurker -- 12/7/2011 4:29:32 PM >

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RE: HPS new games - 12/7/2011 7:43:23 PM   
Gilmer


Posts: 1452
Joined: 7/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

I just read a thread about it on Wargamer and I'm shocked to hear about the state in which PoA2 is even several years after release, which includes frequent crashes to desktop. The HPS page of the game doesn't mention it anywhere. It's an unethical business practice. An unfinished faulty product should be clearly marked as such.



You will also find over at Gamesuqad that many over there with the latest patch don't have the issues that arise in the Wargamer thread...

I had POA2 a couple of years ago and never encountered constant crashing...

So check some more forums before making any rash judgements...I have every confidnce in Tigers as I've played poA2...the only concern maybe theAI...but being I'm usless at wargames and like winning it's not a problem really for me.


You sound just like me. Which was why I liked playing the Russians in WiR. I always won against the AI!

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Post #: 227
RE: HPS new games - 12/7/2011 8:26:25 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

One thing that I don't understand, though is why they didn't try to adopt some consistent, simple art style instead of mixing flat background with shaded trees and houses.

Still, I'd take an ugly game with great mechanics over a game with good graphics that is mechanically regressive.

One possibility that you might want to consider is that the developer is truckin' down a path such that the graphics are 100% open to being modified. While this certainly wasn't the case with the previous titles, the option could actually produce a decent looking game, community add-ons being what they've proved to be in the past.



True, but it seems that a lot of developers/publishers etc etc are taking the easy way out. Charge an arm and a leg for a game and let the modding community finish it....

What easy way out? Do you know any other games that have the features of Tigers Unleashed? And who's going to fund these graphics? All the 200 people who want to play a realistic wargame?


I'm talking in generalities...I did say a lot of dev/pub.....not just HPS
And thats talking the big boys too, not just indie ones.

And i am sure there are way more than 200 people waiting to buy it. If it was such a niche product HPS would have gone the way of the Dodo bird long ago......

Judging by the complete lack of a PoA2 community, I wouldn't be surprised. The game seems to be a niche in a niche in a niche and so hardcore that many people who consider themselves hardcore can't play it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

Tillers games under the HPS umbrella had decent graphics.....why the regression?

Probably because they required lesser effort in other departments and were more popular.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 12/7/2011 8:27:14 PM >

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People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
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Post #: 228
RE: HPS new games - 12/7/2011 8:31:53 PM   
Phatguy

 

Posts: 1348
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Buffalo,ny
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

One thing that I don't understand, though is why they didn't try to adopt some consistent, simple art style instead of mixing flat background with shaded trees and houses.

Still, I'd take an ugly game with great mechanics over a game with good graphics that is mechanically regressive.

One possibility that you might want to consider is that the developer is truckin' down a path such that the graphics are 100% open to being modified. While this certainly wasn't the case with the previous titles, the option could actually produce a decent looking game, community add-ons being what they've proved to be in the past.



True, but it seems that a lot of developers/publishers etc etc are taking the easy way out. Charge an arm and a leg for a game and let the modding community finish it....

What easy way out? Do you know any other games that have the features of Tigers Unleashed? And who's going to fund these graphics? All the 200 people who want to play a realistic wargame?


I'm talking in generalities...I did say a lot of dev/pub.....not just HPS
And thats talking the big boys too, not just indie ones.

And i am sure there are way more than 200 people waiting to buy it. If it was such a niche product HPS would have gone the way of the Dodo bird long ago......

Judging by the complete lack of a PoA2 community, I wouldn't be surprised. The game seems to be a niche in a niche in a niche and so hardcore that many people who consider themselves hardcore can't play it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

Tillers games under the HPS umbrella had decent graphics.....why the regression?

Probably because they required lesser effort in other departments and were more popular.


Sorry, don't buy it...... I doubt if Scott put all that effort into making a game that sells less than 200 copies... He knows his client base......


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RE: HPS new games - 12/8/2011 12:15:44 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

Tillers games under the HPS umbrella had decent graphics.....why the regression?


I think that there's a tendency to give the "HPS-era" graphics more of a pass than they deserve. I'll post a screen-capture of aircraft side-art that shipped with the Midway game in 2010. And I'd note that there are improved graphics for both ships and aircraft that emerged as mods not long after the game was released. If our readers will take a moment to examine the images below, I suspect that at least some of you'll agree that the developer appears awfully close to throwing in the towel on the graphics aspect of its games. IMHO, some of it doesn't even appear to have been professionally done:





Attachment (1)

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RE: HPS new games - 12/8/2011 12:28:10 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		And for comparison's sake, let me post an image of mods for the same aircraft that are available for download, all of them done gratis:





Attachment (1)

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RE: HPS new games - 12/8/2011 1:42:29 AM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

One thing that I don't understand, though is why they didn't try to adopt some consistent, simple art style instead of mixing flat background with shaded trees and houses.

Still, I'd take an ugly game with great mechanics over a game with good graphics that is mechanically regressive.

One possibility that you might want to consider is that the developer is truckin' down a path such that the graphics are 100% open to being modified. While this certainly wasn't the case with the previous titles, the option could actually produce a decent looking game, community add-ons being what they've proved to be in the past.



True, but it seems that a lot of developers/publishers etc etc are taking the easy way out. Charge an arm and a leg for a game and let the modding community finish it....

What easy way out? Do you know any other games that have the features of Tigers Unleashed? And who's going to fund these graphics? All the 200 people who want to play a realistic wargame?


I'm talking in generalities...I did say a lot of dev/pub.....not just HPS
And thats talking the big boys too, not just indie ones.

And i am sure there are way more than 200 people waiting to buy it. If it was such a niche product HPS would have gone the way of the Dodo bird long ago......

Judging by the complete lack of a PoA2 community, I wouldn't be surprised. The game seems to be a niche in a niche in a niche and so hardcore that many people who consider themselves hardcore can't play it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

Tillers games under the HPS umbrella had decent graphics.....why the regression?

Probably because they required lesser effort in other departments and were more popular.


Sorry, don't buy it...... I doubt if Scott put all that effort into making a game that sells less than 200 copies... He knows his client base......

So, how much of them are there? Enough to justify 6 years of development?

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They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

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Post #: 232
RE: HPS new games - 12/8/2011 1:44:56 AM   
Gilmer


Posts: 1452
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

And for comparison's sake, let me post an image of mods for the same aircraft that are available for download, all of them done gratis:






It's like the difference between HD and regular TV.

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Post #: 233
RE: HPS new games - 12/8/2011 2:42:39 AM   
Phatguy

 

Posts: 1348
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Buffalo,ny
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

One thing that I don't understand, though is why they didn't try to adopt some consistent, simple art style instead of mixing flat background with shaded trees and houses.

Still, I'd take an ugly game with great mechanics over a game with good graphics that is mechanically regressive.

One possibility that you might want to consider is that the developer is truckin' down a path such that the graphics are 100% open to being modified. While this certainly wasn't the case with the previous titles, the option could actually produce a decent looking game, community add-ons being what they've proved to be in the past.



True, but it seems that a lot of developers/publishers etc etc are taking the easy way out. Charge an arm and a leg for a game and let the modding community finish it....

What easy way out? Do you know any other games that have the features of Tigers Unleashed? And who's going to fund these graphics? All the 200 people who want to play a realistic wargame?


I'm talking in generalities...I did say a lot of dev/pub.....not just HPS
And thats talking the big boys too, not just indie ones.

And i am sure there are way more than 200 people waiting to buy it. If it was such a niche product HPS would have gone the way of the Dodo bird long ago......

Judging by the complete lack of a PoA2 community, I wouldn't be surprised. The game seems to be a niche in a niche in a niche and so hardcore that many people who consider themselves hardcore can't play it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

Tillers games under the HPS umbrella had decent graphics.....why the regression?

Probably because they required lesser effort in other departments and were more popular.


Sorry, don't buy it...... I doubt if Scott put all that effort into making a game that sells less than 200 copies... He knows his client base......

So, how much of them are there? Enough to justify 6 years of development?


Why ask me? Go ask them.....Im guessing that, like every company, HPS makes games to make money and not for any altruistic reasons...The die hard ASL crowd would probably buy it.I know a few. Hell, I complain about the damn graphics but once i'm back at work I might toss my cash his way too, horribly dated graphics and all....


And on those original graphics...The modded ones are great but even the base ones are still more than suitable.

In my old age I want a little flash in my wargames(strictly for the slowly failing eyesight)....If I want drab i'll drag my old SPI games and set them up....


< Message edited by apathetic lurker -- 12/8/2011 2:45:13 AM >

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Post #: 234
RE: HPS new games - 12/8/2011 3:09:04 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

And on those original graphics...The modded ones are great but even the base ones are still more than suitable.

In my old age I want a little flash in my wargames(strictly for the slowly failing eyesight)....If I want drab i'll drag my old SPI games and set them up....


Care to comment on the paint-job and/or national insignia on the image below? And my point isn't that the graphics are lousy, but that the developer appears to have abandoned any pretense, whatsoever, that it cares what its games look like:






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 235
RE: HPS new games - 12/8/2011 10:58:22 PM   
RyanCrierie


Posts: 1461
Joined: 10/14/2005
Status: offline 		To anyone who is even thinking about getting Tigers Unleashed...

DON'T.

Run as far away as possible as you can from this "game'.

I had the unfortunate 'experience' of ordering Point of Attack 2 long ago. At the time I thought it would be an unique game that I could try and edit to do some science fiction warfare, since the game explictly was supposed to take into account lasers and other upcoming 'unconventional' weapons.

Silly Me. Turns out you can't edit the database.

Not to mention the game.......wasn't even a game at all. It was a self-crashing program that was an experiment to see how many times you could crash a program in increasingly creative ways.

Even after it was "fixed" several years later, it still crashed. During the periods where you could actually 'play' it, it was virtually impossible to do it. For example, if you wanted to know which orientation a vehicles turret was pointing (important for overwatch and approaching a possible anti-tank missile position), you had to drill through several pop up windows to find it.

From looking at the publically released screenshots; I see that Tigers Unleashed will be using virtually the same game engine, so.....

...if you buy it, don't whine about how you can't play it etc etc or how it's horribly clunky or obfuscated....you were warned.

< Message edited by RyanCrierie -- 12/8/2011 11:01:07 PM >

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(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 236
RE: HPS new games - 12/8/2011 11:08:52 PM   
RyanCrierie


Posts: 1461
Joined: 10/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
And for comparison's sake, let me post an image of mods for the same aircraft that are available for download, all of them done gratis:


I'd like to point out something you overlook.

Mods can look like that because modders are doing this unofficially and aren't getting paid for it. So they can kinda sorta get away with using commercial profile artists' work in their mod packs.

For example, a lot of Volcano's soldier side profiles use the artwork of Ron Volstad, or whichever artists that Osprey Publishing is using in that particular monograph.

If HPS wanted to use Ron Volstad's artwork, they would have to sign a copyright agreement and pay Volstad a set fee for a certain number of uses.

That said...They could have long ago scrounged up some money and arranged to have some graphics artists create modernish artwork for all the major unit/branch types of major armies that they would own the copyright too...

But they didn't, similar to how Tiller's games keep using the same game engine framework that was a bit clunky, but acceptable back in 1998 -- without any real user interface improvements.

It's why I really don't buy HPS games unless the subject matter of that particular release interests me intensely.

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Post #: 237
RE: HPS new games - 12/8/2011 11:09:18 PM   
BAL


Posts: 222
Joined: 9/1/2002
From: West of the Missouri
Status: offline 		...or you can wait until the game "actually" comes out, maybe wait for a review, then make up your own mind. Since the game has yet to be released I think I'll wait for a more informed opinion.

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Post #: 238
RE: HPS new games - 12/8/2011 11:14:56 PM   
RyanCrierie


Posts: 1461
Joined: 10/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BAL

...or you can wait until the game "actually" comes out, maybe wait for a review, then make up your own mind. Since the game has yet to be released I think I'll wait for a more informed opinion.


We've already seen screenshots of the "game" in question. They're virtually identical in form, layout, and style as Point of Attack 2. If you want to waste your money, go right ahead.

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Post #: 239
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