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RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 4/13/2010 1:22:45 PM

xj900uk

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quote:

No tactics can work in the face of sufficient material superiority. Allied air superiority and constant naval presence around Guadalcanal meant that Japanese forces were doomed to be inadequate from the start, unless IJN beats the Allied fleet decisively

Agreed. Funnilly enough the IJHC had already worked out that eventually US production and numbers would put them at a 'serious disadvantage' the longer the conflict that dragged on, but concluded in their report to the Emperor dated July '41 (I think) that 'superior Japanese tactics, training, equipment, and above all the invincible Japanese fighting spirit' would carry things through and win the day for them.
Funnily enough it is actually easy to see where they were coming from - in Dec '41 they certainly had all the best tactics, training, equipment and fighting spirit. However they still underestimated the ability of the US to improvise and administer as well as produce, and also seemed to ignore the fact that the US would learn fast and eventually overtake them in terms of equipment and weapons of war (ie as good if not better planes and ships)

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Post #: 181

RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 4/30/2010 4:50:42 PM

Apollo11

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Hi all,

Episodes 5-6-7 were very strong... and very dark... best so far...

Peleliu Landing
Peleliu Airfield
Peleliu Hills

Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 182

RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 4/30/2010 4:52:24 PM

lolz

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iwo jima next?

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Post #: 183

RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 4/30/2010 5:10:49 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Episodes 5-6-7 were very strong... and very dark... best so far...

Peleliu Landing
Peleliu Airfield
Peleliu Hills

Leo "Apollo11"

Agreed.

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Post #: 184

RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 4/30/2010 5:12:03 PM

Grit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

quote:

No tactics can work in the face of sufficient material superiority. Allied air superiority and constant naval presence around Guadalcanal meant that Japanese forces were doomed to be inadequate from the start, unless IJN beats the Allied fleet decisively

Agreed. Funnilly enough the IJHC had already worked out that eventually US production and numbers would put them at a 'serious disadvantage' the longer the conflict that dragged on, but concluded in their report to the Emperor dated July '41 (I think) that 'superior Japanese tactics, training, equipment, and above all the invincible Japanese fighting spirit' would carry things through and win the day for them.
Funnily enough it is actually easy to see where they were coming from - in Dec '41 they certainly had all the best tactics, training, equipment and fighting spirit. However they still underestimated the ability of the US to improvise and administer as well as produce, and also seemed to ignore the fact that the US would learn fast and eventually overtake them in terms of equipment and weapons of war (ie as good if not better planes and ships)

I watched a show yesterday that talked about Japanese weapons. I was surprised how antiquated and poorly built their basic rifles and machine guns were. They were so short of brass they had to use soft iron to make bullet casings.

The show said they didn't have an anti-tank weapon. To fight tanks they buried a bomb intended to be dropped from an aircraft. To detonate it a Japanese soldier was there with a hammer and blew himself up.

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Post #: 185

RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 4/30/2010 5:23:04 PM

sfbaytf

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It was just as well the IJA could be primitive at times with their tactics and had poor weapons. It was bad enough as it was. Imagine how much more worse it would have been had they got together with the Wehrmacht and acquired decent weapons like the MG34/42, MP40 and Panzerfausts and reorginized along Wehrmacht lines and built squad tactics around supporting the machine gunners.

Decades later we faced a very well trained and motivated light infantry force in Viet Nam and they were equipped with excellent small arms.

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Post #: 186

RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 4/30/2010 5:37:20 PM

Apollo11

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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: lolz

iwo jima next?

Iwo Jima (2010-05-02)
Okinawa (2010-05-09)
Home (2010-05-16)

Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 187

RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 4/30/2010 6:58:33 PM

m10bob

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grit

quote:

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

quote:

No tactics can work in the face of sufficient material superiority. Allied air superiority and constant naval presence around Guadalcanal meant that Japanese forces were doomed to be inadequate from the start, unless IJN beats the Allied fleet decisively

Agreed. Funnilly enough the IJHC had already worked out that eventually US production and numbers would put them at a 'serious disadvantage' the longer the conflict that dragged on, but concluded in their report to the Emperor dated July '41 (I think) that 'superior Japanese tactics, training, equipment, and above all the invincible Japanese fighting spirit' would carry things through and win the day for them.
Funnily enough it is actually easy to see where they were coming from - in Dec '41 they certainly had all the best tactics, training, equipment and fighting spirit. However they still underestimated the ability of the US to improvise and administer as well as produce, and also seemed to ignore the fact that the US would learn fast and eventually overtake them in terms of equipment and weapons of war (ie as good if not better planes and ships)

I watched a show yesterday that talked about Japanese weapons. I was surprised how antiquated and poorly built their basic rifles and machine guns were. They were so short of brass they had to use soft iron to make bullet casings.

The show said they didn't have an anti-tank weapon. To fight tanks they buried a bomb intended to be dropped from an aircraft. To detonate it a Japanese soldier was there with a hammer and blew himself up.

Consider this..The Japanese were so behind, that even with captured M'-1 Garands to copy from, they were unable to figure out how to mass produce them, at an efficient cost.

The U.S was the master of "assembly line production" thanks to people like Henry Ford, and today, we take those assembly lines for granted, but they were not introduced to Japan as a single functioning entity in Japanese industry till America sent experts over there to jump start their economy by showing them how to put the line under one roof.

The Japanese have never been stupid, and their success today shows they never forgot the lessons learned in 1947.

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Post #: 188

RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 4/30/2010 10:11:26 PM

John Lansford

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The previews after the last episode indicated the next one would probably be all about John Basilone and how he returned to combat. I agree the Peleliu episodes were the best ones, showing the chaos and mayhem that took place during that battle. Seeing how Haldane was killed and Gunnery Sergeant Hayes broke down were powerful scenes in the latest episode; no one who was in that battle emerged unscarred.

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Post #: 189

RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/1/2010 4:26:57 AM

usersatch

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Very good episodes, indeed. But, I have to ask again, who's bright idea was it to make a mile dash over open ground in the middle of the day? I thought that went out of fashion after Pickett's charge and every battle of WW1.

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Post #: 190

RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/1/2010 4:35:53 AM

Chickenboy

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Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do. Pretty sure that while frontal assaults have been out of favor in the tactical battles of modern warfare, they'll always be there somewhere.

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Post #: 191

RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/1/2010 2:54:22 PM

John Lansford

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There was no way to get to the hills without crossing the airfield, and it was considered too confusing to conduct large scale movements at night during WWII. No night vision goggles, no FLIR, no GPS, just a lot of men following their commander and hoping they make it.

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Post #: 192

RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/4/2010 6:32:18 PM

Apollo11

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Hi all,

I must constantly remind myself that "The Pacific" is based on few real people and that their participation in battles dictate what will we see in the series...

The latest episode "Iwo Jima" was about sgt Basilone and we all know that he died there on the very first day... it was, thus, short... but very very brutal...

BTW, the combat scenes in "The Pacific" are (as always) superbly done - someday I wish to see full motion picture about Iwo Jima made up to such high standards!

Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 193

RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/4/2010 7:27:36 PM

AcePylut

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When you invade an island that is ~5 square miles filled with 10,000 enemy, there is no other tactic than a frontal assault.

This series has blown BOB out of the water.

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Post #: 194

RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/4/2010 7:39:03 PM

Swayin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
BTW, the combat scenes in "The Pacific" are (as always) superbly done - someday I wish to see full motion picture about Iwo Jima made up to such high standards!

Both Flags of Our Fathers and Letters From Iwo Jima are excellent, IMO.

quote:

This series has blown BOB out of the water.

As much as i'm enjoying The Pacific, I have to respectfully disagree. It's not even close. The constant thread of BOB - of being with the same guys over all the episodes, from Curahee to the Eagles Nest, sperates the two. Every Sunday we tune into the Pacific and don't know who we're going to be in the foxhole with. Characters come and go. the nature of stitching together a trio of memoirs inot one narrative is very difficult, and they are doign an admirable job -- but there are inherent problems to that concept that show up when you view the series as a whole.

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RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/4/2010 7:58:00 PM

JWE

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
Hi all,
I must constantly remind myself that "The Pacific" is based on few real people and that their participation in battles dictate what will we see in the series...
The latest episode "Iwo Jima" was about sgt Basilone and we all know that he died there on the very first day... it was, thus, short... but very very brutal...
Leo "Apollo11"

Very real people, Apollo11. When you go South, on the 5, towards San Diego and go through Pendleton, there is an exit for Basilone Road. Thousands of people go that way every day and only see an exit sign. John Basilone was real; he was flesh and his comrades could touch his arm and his Mother could kiss his cheek. Although the flesh is mortified, he is very much alive: alive in the hearts and minds of those who follow in his footsteps.

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Post #: 196

RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/4/2010 8:05:16 PM

witpqs

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I have to say this episode focusing on Basilone was very well done and drove home the point.

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Post #: 197

RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/4/2010 9:08:23 PM

John Lansford

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It's unfair to compare BoB to the Pacific, just as it would be unfair to argue whether the fighting in one theater or the other was harder. The Pacific battles were for the most part isolated, relatively short affairs that were nonstop fighting and bloodshed (Guadalcanal and some of the early NG battles excepted). The combatants were in just a few units, used again and again and withdrawn each time to recover. In Europe the combatants had somewhere to retreat to, and much of the time there was little, if any, fighting going on. They had a rear area where they got supplies and reinforcements from, and they knew it.

The miniseries are different because the fighting was different; they both tell their respective stories well, I think, but I'd not say one was better than the other.

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RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/4/2010 9:19:54 PM

AcePylut

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Swayin

As much as i'm enjoying The Pacific, I have to respectfully disagree. It's not even close. The constant thread of BOB - of being with the same guys over all the episodes, from Curahee to the Eagles Nest, sperates the two. Every Sunday we tune into the Pacific and don't know who we're going to be in the foxhole with. Characters come and go. the nature of stitching together a trio of memoirs inot one narrative is very difficult, and they are doign an admirable job -- but there are inherent problems to that concept that show up when you view the series as a whole.

Well here's where I'm coming from.

When I first watched BoB, every episode was about a different character, if it was about a character at all. The first episode was about no one in particular except Cap'n Sobel- who was gone by the end of the episode. The D-Day jump focused on Winters combat leadership. Caraten episode - focused on Blythe and the "scared blind", the Bastogne episode focused on the Medic, Foy on Spears, Last Patrol on the new lt. Yes, there were the same characters "around the edges" during the entire series (i.e. Winters was always around, Nixon had his moments, Malarky was good comic relief), but when I watched it the first time, I felt it was fairly disjointed as far as following a "main character". We weren't following a "main character" we were following a unit... just as we are doing now. The difference is we're following a Division instead of a company.

There's been comments by other's about "BoB had more action. To that, I say bs and stop skipping past all the boring parts on ur DvD's!

I have to consider that BoB has been out for ~ten years, which has given us time to watch each episode over and over again, time to study, learn, etc. about the "real lives" of all those that were in Easy Company. We are watching Pacific for the first time. We haven't had a chance to purchase the Boxed DvD set with all the extra bonuses providing the background, details, etc. With Pacific, "we" really know nothing about the characters, haven't had time to research each minor characters "real story" other than what wiki spits out at us.

We really aren't comparing the "series" as they first came out. We're comparing a series that is 10 years old and has probably been watched by us 100 times, to a series out for the first time.

So I have to go by what I see on screen, and The Pacific is such a chaotic orgy of violence the likes of which I've not seen on screen before. At no time did I ever feel anything other than entertainment when watching BoB, but when I watched the "Peleliu Beach Invasion", from the point they panned away from Sledge and Phillips to the point where sledge jumped out of the Amtrak, all i could think was "holy f*** turn around go back don't go forward what the heck are you doing youre going closer to that mess".

Then when I watched the "bunker assault" in the final Peleliu episode... the screenplay for that was magnificant... the way they started the scene with a "hey, I think there's Japs in there" and then slowly escalated the violence until it culminated with a brutal flamethrower torching the Japs... I and the other three guys I watched that with were dead silent with shock. Then they brilliantly concluded that episode with the soldier-taking-a-dump-in-a-cave-but-here's-this-crazy-jap-chasing-him-with-sword. Yeah, the situation was not a laughable situation, but to turn the dread I felt when he walked into that cave into something laugh-out-loud, after that orgy of violence, was great writing. It was one of those laughs that was "all tensed up for a climatic tragedy that turned into a naked butt running thing you expect to see in a slapstick war movie". Brilliant.

So I'm trying very hard to compare "The Pacific" with the first showing of "Band of Brothers", and that's why I draw my conclusion that the Pacific is better.

but to each his own!!!!

(PS - not making this an argument, just a discussion)

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RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/4/2010 9:50:32 PM

sfbaytf

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Can't compare the Pacific with the European theater. In the Pacific you'd have entire units ravaged with strange and incurable diseases. Malaria, dengue fever, hepatitis and a bunch of other ailments that even today are not easily treatable, if treatable at all. Many carried he diseases they picked up in the tropics for he rest of their lives. I wouldn't be surprised if disease caused more casualties than bullets. Some of the stuff you can get is something out of science fiction-trust me. I caught parasites overseas in the third world. Had no idea until I began spitting up mucus with blood in it. Soon afterwards I barfed out a huge ball of worms. At he hospital they detected parisites in my urine. I has to drink a mix that would kill the parasites in me and then repeat a week later to kill the larve that hatched from the eggs laid inside of me. I then had to get checked again to make sure I was clear of any parasites. Had I not gone to get medical attention the parasites would have bored through my internal organs and brain. Once that happens there isn't much if anything that can be done and even if they can do something the damage is usually permanent.

Taking a dump was a real adventure. You tell youself don't look, don't look...but human nature being what it is...holy s***!

Most units that served in the pacific needed a long time after a stint in the jungle just to recover from the crap they caught.

BoB had more action and was more consistant. But I think it be hard to put together a story about the Pacific that could be told in the same way as BoB.

< Message edited by sfbaytf -- 5/6/2010 5:23:42 AM >

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RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/4/2010 10:37:02 PM

witpqs

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Naturally the two series have to be different. My criticisms of the current series (see earlier posts) have nothing to do with the different nature of the campaigns, they have to do with - not being in the movie production business I have to guess - the editing. I think it is fair to say that, so far, Band of Brothers was better done overall. With the last couple of episodes, especially the last one focusing on Basilone, The Pacific has improved. And certain aspects of it, for example the battle scenes as others have pointed out, are superb.

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RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/4/2010 10:48:38 PM

Q-Ball

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RE: Japanese weapons, I though the Type 99 rifle was well thought of as far as bolt-actions go, and the Nambu was a nice light MG. The "knee mortar" was also a nice tactical weapon, the Allies didn't really have an equivalent.

Obviously in AT capability...yeah, bad. Artillery wasn't good either, but I wonder if that was more a function of poor logistics.

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RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/4/2010 11:16:49 PM

sfbaytf

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I do agree it was harder to follow The Pacific for a while. It does lack a certain consistency that BoB had. The time frame BoB covered was shorter and it dealt with an environment that was fairly consistent-Europe.

From a purely "shoot em up" perspective BoB is better IMO. I get a definate feel for the different styles of fighting from both.

I was expecting somehing like BoB myself. Not disappointed in what we got.

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RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/5/2010 12:00:33 AM

Swayin

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It's almost unfortunate that for many of us, it's hard *not* to compare the two series -- sort of unfair to both.

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RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/5/2010 12:36:08 AM

eloso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Naturally the two series have to be different. My criticisms of the current series (see earlier posts) have nothing to do with the different nature of the campaigns, they have to do with - not being in the movie production business I have to guess - the editing. I think it is fair to say that, so far, Band of Brothers was better done overall. With the last couple of episodes, especially the last one focusing on Basilone, The Pacific has improved. And certain aspects of it, for example the battle scenes as others have pointed out, are superb.

While I agree that the battle scenes are some of the best, I have to disagree over the last episode being better than the rest... I felt like the whole thing was rushed through. There wasn't enough time to go over Basilone's entire courtship only to spend 10 minutes on the battle at the end. After the 3 episodes on Pelielu I was let down.

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RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/5/2010 1:12:02 AM

witpqs

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Are you saying they should have spent more time on the battle or more time on the courtship?

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RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/5/2010 2:29:48 AM

eloso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Are you saying they should have spent more time on the battle or more time on the courtship?

I think they should have done one or the other. Instead, they just rushed through both and short-changed both stories IMO. Personally, I'm not interested in the soap opera stuff going on between the battles, but to each his own. If I wanted that I could watch the unmentionable movie.

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RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/5/2010 3:55:31 AM

TOMLABEL

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OSO

I think they should have done one or the other. Instead, they just rushed through both and short-changed both stories IMO. Personally, I'm not interested in the soap opera stuff going on between the battles, but to each his own. If I wanted that I could watch the unmentionable movie.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OSO
If I wanted that I could watch the unmentionable movie.

Agreed TOTALLY!

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RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/5/2010 4:46:29 AM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OSO

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Naturally the two series have to be different. My criticisms of the current series (see earlier posts) have nothing to do with the different nature of the campaigns, they have to do with - not being in the movie production business I have to guess - the editing. I think it is fair to say that, so far, Band of Brothers was better done overall. With the last couple of episodes, especially the last one focusing on Basilone, The Pacific has improved. And certain aspects of it, for example the battle scenes as others have pointed out, are superb.

While I agree that the battle scenes are some of the best, I have to disagree over the last episode being better than the rest... I felt like the whole thing was rushed through. There wasn't enough time to go over Basilone's entire courtship only to spend 10 minutes on the battle at the end. After the 3 episodes on Pelielu I was let down.

I thought the last episode was excellent. It portrayed Basilone as a man with a sense of humanity and also a sense of commitment to the corps. When he could easily have been granted a discharge and been done with the war, he voluntarily reupped for a combat assignment. He died on Iwo Jima, a testament to his beliefs in commitment to the cause.

The courtship and marriage provided meaningful juxtuposition. Who among us hasn't felt the first pangs of love? To willingly give up all that he could have-all that he could be-for the sake of the corps and its mission...that's heroism, boys. Taking the easy way out was clearly not an option for Basilone. I don't think this message would be clearly conveyed if we didn't have a picture of what he gave for us. He gave all.

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RE: The Pacific (TV Show) - 5/5/2010 10:19:03 AM

jomni

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The tone of the 'The Pacific' posts in the WITP forum and the General forum are very different. In the General Forum they mostly dislike the series and find it boring. They still prefer the action-packed Band of Brothers. In the WITP forum, where people are more familiar about operatations in PTO and are used to the "boredom" of playing WITP... appreciate the series. :D

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