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A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2

 
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A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 3/29/2010 7:14:02 PM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline 		The A.I sells you his colonies for a budget price as little as 1000, which with the new economy is a huge exploit and stupid on its part.
The A.I can not wait to get rid of its unique tech.It spams this request all the time but wants a zillion credits for it.I do not think the A.I should sell it at all.

The economy had gone from one extreme to another.The econony is now too big.It is too easy to get money which breaks the gameplay.It makes huge fleets easy to maintaine which increases the micromanagement if you control it(not good),and makes buying protection and infomation from pirates and bribing Empires to cheap and a no brainer

Love the game but the balance needs sorting out a bit.



< Message edited by ASHBERY76 -- 3/29/2010 9:19:01 PM >

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RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 3/29/2010 7:15:44 PM   
lordxorn


Posts: 768
Joined: 12/6/2009
Status: offline 		+1

(in reply to ASHBERY76)
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RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 3/29/2010 7:33:55 PM   
Tormodino

 

Posts: 107
Joined: 3/27/2010
Status: offline 		Agreed on both points.

The AI seems to weigh things strangely. I reported some of my impressions on the in tech support.
Tweaking how the AI weighs its actions could probably go a long way to creating a better balanced game.

(in reply to lordxorn)
Post #: 3
RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 3/29/2010 8:14:20 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline 		The best way to balance it is to simply increase prices. Don't mess with taxes and incomes now that it works, just up the amount everything costs and it will bring it all back into balance.

Jim

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RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 3/29/2010 8:14:32 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I like having huge fleets, shush.

I'm also exploiting the hell out of resorts. Running 4 right now in my present game, they are bringing in something like 50k between them.

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RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 3/29/2010 9:11:32 PM   
lordxorn


Posts: 768
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I like having huge fleets, shush.

I'm also exploiting the hell out of resorts. Running 4 right now in my present game, they are bringing in something like 50k between them.


Nice I will now pay more attention to them. Yeah I would say don't mess with the income, just balance things our more like bribing empires to war dec others, or purchasing colonies from others, and selling their exclusive tech.

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RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 3/29/2010 9:44:31 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		There will very likely be a bit of rebalancing soon, now that the economy is making more money for everyone.

In the meantime, I strongly recommend playing on the more challenging settings. Set the Galaxy to Restless for example and see how things go.

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RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 3/29/2010 9:49:21 PM   
Joram

 

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline 		I don't think the economy is just the point actually.  I've reported other bugs with diplomacy too.  I don't think it's just a balance thing.

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RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 3/29/2010 9:53:24 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		We'll be going through all bug reports as well and taking a look at how the AI is making some of the trade decisions for colonies, I was just speaking to the "lots of money" point.

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RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 3/30/2010 12:11:44 AM   
PDiFolco

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

We'll be going through all bug reports as well and taking a look at how the AI is making some of the trade decisions for colonies, I was just speaking to the "lots of money" point.

Just saw that, a friendly race proposed 3 colonies at 5000 cr each, while being ok to buy some not so useful industrial tech for 20000 ...

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RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 3/30/2010 12:54:41 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

We'll be going through all bug reports as well and taking a look at how the AI is making some of the trade decisions for colonies, I was just speaking to the "lots of money" point.


A slower economy or faster economy option would make everyone happy

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RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 3/30/2010 1:05:14 AM   
JosEPhII


Posts: 173
Joined: 1/17/2010
From: Cornfields of Western IL. USA
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The only "cheap" colonies the AI has ever offered me had little or no resources.

I did have 1 Large empire AI ask for one of my better planets in exchange for 3 of their mid range planets in 3 separate systems. Trouble was I had a very hard time trying to find those systems to even consider the Exchange. So I turned it down. I might have thrown away a good deal because I had No way to "view"/look over those offered planets. Missing important info like this makes game decisions much harder and basically for me become crap shoots. Roll the dice, snake eyes this time, maybe 7's next time. I need better means to acquire info to make calculated choices.

The Patch saved my game and my economy. The economy is still being learned and I for one don't want it "rebalanced" right away till I have more game time under my and everyone else's belts. So saying it went "to far" is rather premature in my book.

Maybe late game my Bank Should have 1,000,000 credits in it. If I want the Zenox Megatron Z4 for 1,600,000 I should have the means to get that much cash in the latter game to purchase it. And Not have a budget of 20,000 after building an Empire with 60+ colonies. That to me would be Unbalanced and Unrealistic.

JosEPh


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RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 3/30/2010 1:29:43 AM   
frugaldude

 

Posts: 85
Joined: 3/22/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JosEPh_II


The economy is still being learned and I for one don't want it "rebalanced" right away till I have more game time under my and everyone else's belts. So saying it went "to far" is rather premature in my book.




Agreed.

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RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 3/30/2010 6:04:07 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JosEPh_II
Maybe late game my Bank Should have 1,000,000 credits in it. If I want the Zenox Megatron Z4 for 1,600,000 I should have the means to get that much cash in the latter game to purchase it. And Not have a budget of 20,000 after building an Empire with 60+ colonies. That to me would be Unbalanced and Unrealistic.


I think all anyone is saying is things like planets, research, buying off lots of pirates and purchased info on systems should not be easily affordable from game start. You should need a larger economy to easily afford stuff like that. Early in the game it should be a near bank breaking decision to do anything like that.

Jim


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RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 3/30/2010 12:21:59 PM   
Gertjan

 

Posts: 698
Joined: 12/9/2009
Status: offline 		Why would technology trade not be feasible/easy/affordable from the start? I think it is quite normal to have that.

Sometimes the AI offers weird proposals, like offering a technology trade for huge amounts of cash. I always have to be careful to click the right response. Otherwise I could restart the game.

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Post #: 15
RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 4/1/2010 12:28:50 PM   
playedabit

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 3/30/2010
Status: offline 		The colonies the AI would sell me cheap are those usually that are either very small or surrounded by my other systems therefore strategically not well placed for the AI. Those would cost around 10-40k. The AI would refuse to sell me more established planets even though the prices would be still quite low, in the 50-100k range. I still think the AI's willingness to part with its colonies is a huge strategical disadvantage for it.

Also, the AI should protect strategically important assets and abilities more, such as the ability to colonise certain types of worlds if I don't have that ability (e.g. it has acquired a minority race and can colonise ocean worlds), race specific techs and colonies. In this game I'm playing now I saw a quick expansion of alien ocean world colonies threatening my own territory because I didn't have access to a certain minor race. That was a huge advantage for that AI empire but it was gone in a minute when I simply bought some of their planets for 15k each. This should be much more difficult to acquire, only through war or from a very friendly race for loads of cash.

My problem with the AI empire offering race-specific technology isn't that it costs a lot of money. Race-specific techs should remain very highly valued. My problem is that it's offering it at all, thus diminishing whatever strategical advantage it had over me.

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Post #: 16
RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 4/2/2010 7:55:13 PM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline 		More issues with the diplomacy systems.When the somebody gets the A.I to declare war on another empire they should not be able to get a peace treaty straight away,considering they have been bribed..Same with getting A.I and human players to get a peace treaty for loot and then declare war again straight away.

GC2 had this problem but they stopped it by only having diplomacy allowed after a set time,EU3 had the same system of course.


< Message edited by ASHBERY76 -- 4/2/2010 7:57:04 PM >

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RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 4/2/2010 8:02:00 PM   
taltamir

 

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline 		the only cheap colonies are worthless colonies... good ones costs millions and the AI will often refuse to sell those even if you DO offer him their value.

Also, you only make ridiculous amounts of money when you have a ridiculously big empire. Which makes sense... yes the united states as a whole has a massively larger economy and funds then the city of dallas... duh. should now the cost of a single cruise ship skyrocket for the usa as a whole for "balance" reasons?

now, that does make micromanagement a problem... but that is why you micromanage that when you have a tiny 5 colony empire... later you have hundreds of ships that the AI control... the ai forms fleets from those, you can micro manage the fleets... give a 30 ship fleet an order and it will follow it just fine.

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RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 4/2/2010 8:56:28 PM   
Fishman

 

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline 		The AI is not as dumb as he looks when he's willing to sell you some crap colony for 50K or more. The only thing that colony cost him was a $3000 colony ship and he's making out like a bandit every time you buy that colony off him. If you try to buy a real colony, it will be like a million kajillion bucks.

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Post #: 19
RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 4/3/2010 1:03:57 AM   
taltamir

 

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

The AI is not as dumb as he looks when he's willing to sell you some crap colony for 50K or more. The only thing that colony cost him was a $3000 colony ship and he's making out like a bandit every time you buy that colony off him. If you try to buy a real colony, it will be like a million kajillion bucks.


I noticed that! The AI tried to scam me several times actually..
and one time he tried to ask me to swap two colonies of us (trash) plus a tech for one colony of mine... my colony had a huge empire wide bonus from ancient ruins in it.

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RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 4/7/2010 5:41:49 PM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline 		The same issues in 1.3 for A.I diplomacy values.The A.I offers techs for as little as 1000 in a now bloated economy that has 50000+ in the bank at the early game stage,this creates a tech spawning situation in a game that does not have a lot of tech as it is.I prefer tech trading for money to break the bank and should be a rare event.Trading techs for techs is another matter.The pirates are also so cheap to bribe,etc it also becomes a non issue to gameplay in the bloated economy.

The game needs scaling values based on the economy.

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RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 4/7/2010 6:01:56 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Just FYI, re-balancing some of the valuations for AI diplomacy as well as the economy as a whole is on the schedule for the next update. We are aware that this needs some work now.

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 4/7/2010 7:24:54 PM   
Sarissofoi


Posts: 329
Joined: 2/1/2010
Status: offline 		AI offers you technology for a low price only when you almost discover it.
Still I think they should take the full price but now that is make sense.


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RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 4/7/2010 8:00:25 PM   
fabio80mi

 

Posts: 57
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline 		/suggestion mode on

Or maybe you can consider doing  the smart thing and put *ALL* those values (diplomacy,economy,ai,prioritization,threats,whatever has a value in the game) in some external txt files read at game start so we can mod it if we dont like them or we want to experiment with something different :P

Easy for you to tweak and easy for us gamerbase to adjust to new settings.

Ok it wont still be the real modding the game was advertised for or the level of modding at least i was expecting before release but it could be a good *start*

/suggestion mode off

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Post #: 24
RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 4/7/2010 9:07:44 PM   
Gertjan

 

Posts: 698
Joined: 12/9/2009
Status: offline 		I noted that as well Sarissorofoi. But I thinkt his is normal. Otherwise you would not be interested in the trade, right?

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Post #: 25
RE: A.I and gameplay balance issues with 1.2 - 4/8/2010 1:51:30 AM   
taltamir

 

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarissofoi

AI offers you technology for a low price only when you almost discover it.
Still I think they should take the full price but now that is make sense.



correct, I actually like the way it works... its sensible and not overly gamey.
it makes perfect sense for me that a 5 star empire sells a unique tech to a 300 star empire for millions... this is 10 years of my GDP and thousands of years of their GDP, and jump starts their economy and military conquests of other empires, not to mention allows them to purchase technology and crash research.
everyone wins...

the only time they offer a tech cheap is when you NEARLY discovered it, this also makes sense, they aren't giving you that whole tech, but they are giving you a little "final boost"... cost is relative, when you already have that tech they cannot sell it to you anymore.

i noticed that if you trade for a tech you get all prior techs as well. (And that it is taken into account in the cost)... There is absolutely no solution that isn't entirely gamey.. heck its already overly gamy in that they flat out refuse to sell you such tech when you ask, only when they offer.

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