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Ship role and design - 3/29/2010 8:34:27 PM

4xfan

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I recently got the long range scanner tech and am looking to make use of it. Ship building seems constrained by the roles, so I'm not sure how to make a recon type base or ship. Should I just use them on the explorer? Are they good to add to star ports/bases?

Post #: 1

RE: Ship role and design - 3/29/2010 8:44:19 PM

Nemo84

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I haven't really played around with them either, but I did find a couple of abandoned space stations with advanced sensors. My impression is they would be great on the main spaceports, naval bases in empty systems (is it even possible to build something like this?), perhaps supply ships (to act as secure recon asset for hunter-killer wolfpacks or main fleets) and perhaps scout ships. Putting it on every space station seems overkill, they're pretty expensive I think.

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RE: Ship role and design - 3/29/2010 8:49:06 PM

4xfan

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How big is the range really? With fuel range we can see a circle, is there something similar for sensor range?

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RE: Ship role and design - 3/29/2010 8:53:57 PM

Nemo84

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I've noticed a large red (my empire color, don't know if it's related) circle on the galaxy map around those captured stations, that seems to pick up every ship inside it. It usually covers several solar systems.

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Post #: 4

RE: Ship role and design - 4/3/2010 10:00:56 AM

profanicus

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I'm interested in how big these ranges are as well, eg. range 8000 for a resource scanner - I've seen my automated exploration ships jump back to a visited system to search individual moons and asteroids within it, are they scanning for resources? So 8000 doesn't cover a whole system?

< Message edited by profanicus -- 4/3/2010 10:01:14 AM >

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Post #: 5

RE: Ship role and design - 4/3/2010 10:47:39 AM

VarekRaith

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The range on the first long range scanner you get is, I think, 450,000.

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RE: Ship role and design - 4/3/2010 10:56:48 AM

Resan

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450k is good and all, but how long is that "in game"

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RE: Ship role and design - 4/3/2010 11:49:53 AM

PDiFolco

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The LR scan range is viewable in game at sector level with a circulare "hazed" zone around the ship/base.
There's no issue mounting a LR scanner on any ship, but it only works as ship detection, so is not that useful. I built one design around the LR scanner (200 size is a min, as the thing is big) and put one ship in each fleet. It's a kind of AWACS :)

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RE: Ship role and design - 4/3/2010 12:21:01 PM

tuser

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Range is decent enough, at higher tech it's easy to get full sector coverage. They're essential for defense anyways.

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Post #: 9

RE: Ship role and design - 4/3/2010 3:21:16 PM

Korvus77

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Is there a list of what size range each ship class should be in? Escorts less than 150? frigates less than 200? etc? Want to add on some components to ships but don't really know how many gadgets I can tack on before it falls into a different category.

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Post #: 10

RE: Ship role and design - 4/3/2010 3:28:38 PM

Joram

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco

The LR scan range is viewable in game at sector level with a circulare "hazed" zone around the ship/base.
There's no issue mounting a LR scanner on any ship, but it only works as ship detection, so is not that useful. I built one design around the LR scanner (200 size is a min, as the thing is big) and put one ship in each fleet. It's a kind of AWACS :)

You put a solar collector on that and shouldn't you be able to park that sucker anywhere. Would be cheaper than a base I'd think!

(in reply to PDiFolco)

Post #: 11

RE: Ship role and design - 4/3/2010 4:35:21 PM

BigWolfChris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Korvus77

Is there a list of what size range each ship class should be in? Escorts less than 150? frigates less than 200? etc? Want to add on some components to ships but don't really know how many gadgets I can tack on before it falls into a different category.

What people need to realize, they aren't classes, they are roles
You can have a 200 sized Escort if you wanted, and a 150 Destroyer
They only determine what they are being used for

I realize most of us see it the way it was in Space Empires and Gal Civ, but it's completely different
The only limits are what your Space Yards can build and what you can afford to maintain

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Post #: 12

RE: Ship role and design - 4/3/2010 8:56:36 PM

Korvus77

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Oh in that case I'm going to start building some much bigger escorts and frigates.

When the ai tells me I need more escorts I sometimes get lazy and just let it build them and was worried it would skip to an obsolete design due to size.

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Post #: 13

RE: Ship role and design - 4/3/2010 9:26:04 PM

PDiFolco

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram

quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco

The LR scan range is viewable in game at sector level with a circulare "hazed" zone around the ship/base.
There's no issue mounting a LR scanner on any ship, but it only works as ship detection, so is not that useful. I built one design around the LR scanner (200 size is a min, as the thing is big) and put one ship in each fleet. It's a kind of AWACS :)

You put a solar collector on that and shouldn't you be able to park that sucker anywhere. Would be cheaper than a base I'd think!

Yep that's the idea - mobile LR scanner, cheap !

(in reply to Joram)

Post #: 14

RE: Ship role and design - 4/3/2010 9:42:10 PM

Tanaka

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Korvus77

Is there a list of what size range each ship class should be in? Escorts less than 150? frigates less than 200? etc? Want to add on some components to ships but don't really know how many gadgets I can tack on before it falls into a different category.

What people need to realize, they aren't classes, they are roles
You can have a 200 sized Escort if you wanted, and a 150 Destroyer
They only determine what they are being used for

I realize most of us see it the way it was in Space Empires and Gal Civ, but it's completely different
The only limits are what your Space Yards can build and what you can afford to maintain

Could you describe the roles and what they are used for? In other words why would you not only build the biggest ships possible?

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Post #: 15

RE: Ship role and design - 4/3/2010 10:35:46 PM

PDiFolco

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Joined: 10/11/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Korvus77

Is there a list of what size range each ship class should be in? Escorts less than 150? frigates less than 200? etc? Want to add on some components to ships but don't really know how many gadgets I can tack on before it falls into a different category.

What people need to realize, they aren't classes, they are roles
You can have a 200 sized Escort if you wanted, and a 150 Destroyer
They only determine what they are being used for

I realize most of us see it the way it was in Space Empires and Gal Civ, but it's completely different
The only limits are what your Space Yards can build and what you can afford to maintain

Could you describe the roles and what they are used for? In other words why would you not only build the biggest ships possible?

As IRL, it can be better to have 3 small ships for the price of 1 big : more flexibility, management of small threats (pirates), specialization (ex :1 with torps, 1 beam, 1 armored troop transport..). Plus smaller ships go faster and have longer range.

(in reply to Tanaka)

Post #: 16

RE: Ship role and design - 4/3/2010 11:45:07 PM

Aelfric

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I'm still biased toward treating 'roles' in-game as 'classes' in practice. This stems from the use of frigates, destroyers, cruisers, etc. as different ship classes in real life. The classification established by the game seems to mix up classes and roles.

US Navy had DDE, which was a destroyer converted to anti-submarine warfare for escort purpose. If I were about to design a ship with similar role in-game, in the context of capital ship battle group escort, should I design it as an heavily-armed (large size) escort or a destroyer?

To me, it is counter-intuitive to design it as an heavily-armed escort because that defeats the purpose of having destroyer design available to me. Besides, the game manual states escorts are the smallest of all ships and used to patrol colonies and facilities. They are not supposed to engage in long-range patrols or combat missions. And if you notice, when you start the game, the default escort design is always smaller than the default frigate and destroyer design. Therefore, I always consider escorts as corvettes.

(in reply to PDiFolco)

Post #: 17

RE: Ship role and design - 4/4/2010 12:16:39 AM

BigWolfChris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Could you describe the roles and what they are used for? In other words why would you not only build the biggest ships possible?

You could build the biggest and baddest if you wanted
But, would it help you win? Or leave you short because or you cannot build as many (ie. Forces over-stretched)
Like the real world, smaller vessels have uses, they can response to minor threats faster, afterall, why send in a 200-size ship to take out a lone weak sand worm, when a 100-size one can get there faster and still deal with the threat

Bigger is not always best for everything, just unfortunately, games tend to be programmed where they are

Another example, you're building a killer Capital Ship that could turn the tide of battle... but it will take alot of time to build, so use other ports to build smaller ships in order to ensure you're not taken out of the fight while it's building

But, there is nothing wrong with designing like they are classes, just remember that any sized ship can be used for escorting, for example

< Message edited by BigWolf -- 4/4/2010 12:17:29 AM >

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RE: Ship role and design - 4/4/2010 5:44:45 AM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Could you describe the roles and what they are used for? In other words why would you not only build the biggest ships possible?

You could build the biggest and baddest if you wanted
But, would it help you win? Or leave you short because or you cannot build as many (ie. Forces over-stretched)
Like the real world, smaller vessels have uses, they can response to minor threats faster, afterall, why send in a 200-size ship to take out a lone weak sand worm, when a 100-size one can get there faster and still deal with the threat

Bigger is not always best for everything, just unfortunately, games tend to be programmed where they are

Another example, you're building a killer Capital Ship that could turn the tide of battle... but it will take alot of time to build, so use other ports to build smaller ships in order to ensure you're not taken out of the fight while it's building

But, there is nothing wrong with designing like they are classes, just remember that any sized ship can be used for escorting, for example

How is it that smaller ships are faster if bigger ships hold more engines etc? Are they coded to automatically be faster?

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 4/4/2010 5:47:15 AM >

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RE: Ship role and design - 4/4/2010 6:35:15 AM

jam3

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The larger you make a ship the slower it will go, for a test just keep throwing armor on an escort and you'll watch the speed, acceleration, and turn rate all go down. Therefore larger ships require more engines than smaller ones to go an equivalent speed. I am not sure but I guess the roles primarily have to do with how a ship is assigned a mission by the ai when its automated.

(in reply to Tanaka)

Post #: 20

RE: Ship role and design - 4/4/2010 7:44:30 AM

ductape

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Joined: 3/29/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Could you describe the roles and what they are used for? In other words why would you not only build the biggest ships possible?

You could build the biggest and baddest if you wanted
But, would it help you win? Or leave you short because or you cannot build as many (ie. Forces over-stretched)
Like the real world, smaller vessels have uses, they can response to minor threats faster, afterall, why send in a 200-size ship to take out a lone weak sand worm, when a 100-size one can get there faster and still deal with the threat

Bigger is not always best for everything, just unfortunately, games tend to be programmed where they are

Another example, you're building a killer Capital Ship that could turn the tide of battle... but it will take alot of time to build, so use other ports to build smaller ships in order to ensure you're not taken out of the fight while it's building

But, there is nothing wrong with designing like they are classes, just remember that any sized ship can be used for escorting, for example

How is it that smaller ships are faster if bigger ships hold more engines etc? Are they coded to automatically be faster?

basic physics really. greater mass takes more work to accelerate, and then more friction to decelerate. they turn slower, notice how ships must "align" to the their new "warp" driection before intiating travel.

if each little action takes longer. slower turning, slower acceleration, slower deceleration. big ship go slower.

how it work in the game, i'm not sure. but that how it would likely work if we had spaceships in space (yeah right).

(in reply to Tanaka)

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RE: Ship role and design - 4/4/2010 8:20:51 AM

Xenoform21

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Joined: 1/14/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ductape

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Could you describe the roles and what they are used for? In other words why would you not only build the biggest ships possible?

You could build the biggest and baddest if you wanted
But, would it help you win? Or leave you short because or you cannot build as many (ie. Forces over-stretched)
Like the real world, smaller vessels have uses, they can response to minor threats faster, afterall, why send in a 200-size ship to take out a lone weak sand worm, when a 100-size one can get there faster and still deal with the threat

Bigger is not always best for everything, just unfortunately, games tend to be programmed where they are

Another example, you're building a killer Capital Ship that could turn the tide of battle... but it will take alot of time to build, so use other ports to build smaller ships in order to ensure you're not taken out of the fight while it's building

But, there is nothing wrong with designing like they are classes, just remember that any sized ship can be used for escorting, for example

How is it that smaller ships are faster if bigger ships hold more engines etc? Are they coded to automatically be faster?

basic physics really. greater mass takes more work to accelerate, and then more friction to decelerate. they turn slower, notice how ships must "align" to the their new "warp" driection before intiating travel.

if each little action takes longer. slower turning, slower acceleration, slower deceleration. big ship go slower.

how it work in the game, i'm not sure. but that how it would likely work if we had spaceships in space (yeah right).

In game the speed of your ship is directly related to its size, and how many engines and vectoring engines you have. So my little 115 point escort only needs four engines and two thrusters to get 9.8 m/s^2 of thrust, 20 degrees of turn per second, where my 200 point destroyer needs 11 engines and 6 thrusters for the same specs.

(in reply to ductape)

Post #: 22

RE: Ship role and design - 4/4/2010 12:02:01 PM

PDiFolco

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Well, that's not real physics - rather, it's Earth physics ! In space with no gravity size doesn't slow anything, so we have an unrealistic game convention based on earthling experience

(in reply to Xenoform21)

Post #: 23

RE: Ship role and design - 4/4/2010 2:55:49 PM

Korvus77

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Well turn off the gravity plating so you won't have to worry about slowing down. I'm sure everyone will love prolonged zero G exposure.

I did note there is a point where adding engines just slows the ship down due to tonnage, at a guess.

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Post #: 24

RE: Ship role and design - 4/4/2010 3:13:47 PM

tuser

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It's an abstraction of sorts. In reality, there's only acceleration and the speed of light, not some arbitrary low speed limit. But that doesn't work in games, at least i've seen none past Elite try it. Anyway, acceleration depends on mass, so having a ship's speed go down with higher mass makes some sense.

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Post #: 25

RE: Ship role and design - 4/4/2010 3:14:23 PM

JonathanStrange

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A "picket ship" on sentry duty with long range scanning would work on a smaller ship? That is, it would fit?

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Post #: 26

RE: Ship role and design - 4/5/2010 3:22:33 AM

Fishman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
How is it that smaller ships are faster if bigger ships hold more engines etc? Are they coded to automatically be faster?

They aren't. If you're willing to put a ludicrous number of engines on a big ship, you can make it travel at decidedly unsafe speeds. A 1500-size behemoth capital shipwith 800 points of engines on it is going to go as fast as a 150-point escort with 80 points of engines on it. Of course, this means you went and stuck like a hundred engines on it.

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Post #: 27

RE: Ship role and design - 4/5/2010 11:07:16 AM

PDiFolco

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JonathanStrange

A "picket ship" on sentry duty with long range scanning would work on a smaller ship? That is, it would fit?

Yes it does, but due to the scanner size the ship will be >200 size minimum. Don't forget solar panels else the ship will always scream for fuel

(in reply to JonathanStrange)

Post #: 28

RE: Ship role and design - 4/5/2010 6:04:31 PM

Interesting

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In this game, bigger is better.

All you have to do to keep up with the speed, is maintain the same rate of components efficiency per size.

But most of the time we prefer more damage and shield, yeah, just add two more fuel components and boom, teleport to their Capital Colony with your slow juggernauts.

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 29

RE: Ship role and design - 4/5/2010 11:22:41 PM

richieelias

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Earth physics is real physics. Gravity is everywhere in space, otherwise galaxies would just fly apart. You're always being pulled toward something.

Thats besides the point though. A ships mass and the energy required to propel that mass doesnt have much to do with gravity (unless you're close to an object with a strong gravitational pull). Something with a high mass will always require more energy to accelerate than something with less mass. The abstraction here lies more with the speeds at which ships travel and accelerate. But hey, thats a good thing as I dont feel like waiting several months for something to travel between planets at a measly 1-2 G's of acceleration :P

I think its a safe assumption that "size" in this game is just a generic term for mass.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco

Well, that's not real physics - rather, it's Earth physics ! In space with no gravity size doesn't slow anything, so we have an unrealistic game convention based on earthling experience�

< Message edited by richieelias -- 4/5/2010 11:28:28 PM >

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Post #: 30