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RE: German units designations - 5/3/2010 9:48:24 PM

Plainian

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I can't see the 37 value but I do now see the 3 Fort value.

Does leadership value play much of a part in attacks? Coordinating 200k plus troops from 5 hexes (50 miles) must be pretty difficult and Soviet leaders had a lot to contend with. Plus yes add in the German leadership skill and the result can be explained I guess.

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Post #: 211

RE: German units designations - 5/3/2010 10:28:53 PM

SGHunt

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Nevertheless, you would normally expect that that amount of artillery (assuming it's in supply) would pulverise a lot more troops than that, even in decent prepared positions. That's 4.5K tubes firing into a ten by ten mile area, over the course of several days, where the enemy is in fixed (known?) positions...

And there's the armour too - against a Mountain Division! Although well dug into a hedgehog here, and very dangerous to the human wave of infantry coming at them in ths battle, the mountain divisions, by their very nature, tended to be 'light' in terms of support weapons, incluidng AT assets (I notice the Russians took no AFV casualties). So I am surprised that this wasn't an overwhelming and succesful assault, albeit with heavy infantry casualties on both sides.

Or does your last post suggest that the Germans legged it in the face of such an overwhelming assault force - Gr�faz will not be amused by such unauthorised 'straightenings of the front' or 'advances to the rear'!

Alternatively, if the Russians were short on the heavy logisitics and fuel, it may be not so surprising either.

Any further thoughts on this?

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RE: German units designations - 5/3/2010 10:52:48 PM

Hard Sarge

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look at the screen shot when I hit OKH, to the side of it a few hexes is where the other battle was fought

so, we looking at attack across a river, in the swaps, in bad weather, so yea, all in all, out in the open, you would expect a slaughter, but not everything is equal

if the Germans had gotten some support, I think they could of won, and I do think, the "AI" cut and ran, while the running was good

(in real, life, the Ge at low level, were very good at recon, intell, and were pretty good at guessing when the attack was coming, which the Ge tended to build there lines, two or three deep, if they guessed right, they pulled out of the front line, and got into the 2nd line, about the time the arty started to fire and flatten the first line, and slaughtered the troops that came into the 2nd line, they guessed wrong, they tended to die in place and be completely overran, now, that is getting more into late 43, early 44, but...)

and really, in a toe to toe fight, the Ge are going to win most fights, at least early on, so, numbers and men, don't always win, just because they have more

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Post #: 213

RE: German units designations - 5/3/2010 10:56:10 PM

Hard Sarge

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ahhhh, and yea, I am very short of supply, and ammo, I got decent supply lines, I don't have many trucks, I really have been running a full, General Off, I should be only running a couple of fronts (but I had to take the pressure off of the south)

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Post #: 214

RE: German units designations - 5/3/2010 11:00:25 PM

Hard Sarge

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deep south, Mud ruined my advantage, and gave the Axis time to react

not much strength, but nothing i can do now, I am at the end of my supply line

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Post #: 215

RE: German units designations - 5/3/2010 11:03:00 PM

Hard Sarge

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the Axis are starting to pull back with the mud, so, time to release the dogs

Opp. Vaction Time is broadcasted over the radio waves and the troops at Stalingrad start crossing the river

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Post #: 216

RE: German units designations - 5/3/2010 11:06:23 PM

Hard Sarge

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in the North, miss the pocket by one hex !!!!!

ahh, still a path though the swamps, but.... so close

but, no rail line out, no rail line in, if the next week is mud, they are in major trouble, snow, will give them a chance to fall back, blizzard would let the dogs free

(early for the Blizzard to hit, but Mud is still a good chance)

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Post #: 217

RE: German units designations - 5/4/2010 1:35:17 AM

Hard Sarge

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oh my, 4 PZ Divs show up in the North

not sure that was a good idea, but that is a lot of firepower, if he wants to use it, if he don't, they going to be 4 dead Divs

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Post #: 218

RE: German units designations - 5/4/2010 1:39:14 AM

Hard Sarge

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in the south, Opp Vaction Time is off to a good start and again, I miss the pocket by one hex

ahhhhh

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Post #: 219

RE: German units designations - 5/4/2010 2:40:34 AM

Hard Sarge

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oh boy, first week of Dec and the blizzard hits, and I don't get much done

my supply levels are just too low

but slow and steady

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Post #: 220

RE: German units designations - 5/4/2010 2:44:57 AM

Hard Sarge

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but, in the south, the pocket closes, the rest of the line looks pretty soild, of course, I had just started to try and clean up my Fronts before the blizzard hit, so wasn't really ready for it

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Post #: 221

RE: German units designations - 5/4/2010 3:44:32 AM

Hard Sarge

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in the south, the pocket is closed, and the killing begins, well, more like the hunting and chasing, they won't stand still and die in place like good little solders

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RE: German units designations - 5/4/2010 3:46:42 AM

Hard Sarge

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in the North, the Axis must want to keep that area alive, I count 6 PZ Divs, a Reg and 2 motorized Divs in the area

going to be a lot of work to clean that up, but, will be worth it, if I can do it with out letting them get away

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Post #: 223

RE: German units designations - 5/4/2010 3:23:58 PM

Hard Sarge

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okay, here is a screen shot of something I don't think we have shown, Partisans at work

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Post #: 224

RE: German units designations - 5/4/2010 3:26:32 PM

Hard Sarge

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Blizzard is still going on

so here is the next week in the north

I have trained in some troops from Moscow, they still stuck on the train

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Post #: 225

RE: German units designations - 5/4/2010 3:28:28 PM

Hard Sarge

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and the week after

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RE: German units designations - 5/4/2010 3:31:06 PM

Hard Sarge

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in the north, I am just trying to drive the Ge away, and make a large gap, in the south, just trying to close in, the hassle is the opening in the swamp, I not got the strength to sweep around to close it, so need to drive in from the flanks

Northwestern Front just didn't have the strength, and the AI pulled back, instead of standing in place, so they kept there power almost intact, I hurt them early, but not enough

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RE: German units designations - 5/4/2010 3:33:23 PM

Hard Sarge

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and as of 12-26-42, Opp Vaction Time, is almost complete. need those troops to break down the main line, which the AI is slowly backing up, plus need to break a gap to my troops in the far south, can't get a rail line though Kresh

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RE: German units designations - 5/4/2010 8:30:44 PM

janh

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What are the German losses down south? It seems that AI overextended itself irresponsibly. For late 1942 I get the impression your progress is significantly better than the time the Russians had historically, capturing several heavy divisions in the southern AO, and pressing the northern flank very hard despite heavy German force concentrations. You could make it to Berlin by autumn 43?

< Message edited by janh -- 5/4/2010 8:31:15 PM >

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RE: German units designations - 5/4/2010 9:04:11 PM

Ron

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quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

What are the German losses down south? It seems that AI overextended itself irresponsibly. For late 1942 I get the impression your progress is significantly better than the time the Russians had historically, capturing several heavy divisions in the southern AO, and pressing the northern flank very hard despite heavy German force concentrations. You could make it to Berlin by autumn 43?

Now that's an understatement! A perfect example of AI limitation and exploitation, not too sure much can be done about that as the tester opened the door between Rostov and Stalingrad; you will probably see the same sort of trap around the Peipus lake region as the AI has reinforced that area. It did react, as in the Crimea, but much too late.

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RE: German units designations - 5/4/2010 9:25:07 PM

Hard Sarge

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now be fair, I already said, the VH and goals are not in yet, so, once the AI got rolling, it kept rolling, once it has a goal, it will know when it should stop, yea, it should of turned south, instead of driving east, also, it went under Stalingrad, and broke off troops to go for it, instead of making it the focucal point

it is test runs like this that shows what is going to happen, and lets Gary know what he needs to work on/with

I can see how the AI is changing and doing better, my last game by this time, I was in Poland

if this was beta and we were pushing to get this out the door, I would be worried about the AI, but we in alpha, and Gary is sending out new verisons almost every other day, and I can see the improvements and changes, we getting there

and for what it is worth, we are showing some of the warts along with all of the good stuff, I could of very easly, just take close up shots, and brag about this and that, and not shown what we are working on

funny though, the complaint is that the AI overextended itself irresponsibly. but isn't that what the Germans did in real life ?

you want the AI to be better the German General staff

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RE: German units designations - 5/4/2010 9:44:53 PM

SGHunt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

you want the AI to be better the German General staff?

Of course

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RE: German units designations - 5/4/2010 9:50:13 PM

janh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
funny though, the complaint is that the AI overextended itself irresponsibly. but isn't that what the Germans did in real life ?
you want the AI to be better the German General staff

Yeah, I think AI is very promising taking into account you are still alpha! I would hope that at lower difficulty levels the chances to catch AI off-guard and trap it should be larger than at highest (where it could be very small for this size of pocket). Maybe AI should not send so many divisions so far ahead while the northern flank of the advance is unsecured. Historically the Germans were overstretched, but the center of gravity was Stalingrad and it was quite focused there. So I find that that AI spread its forces to far southeast, which I'd hope would not occur at "Challenging" or above. It would be tougher for the player if AI would keep its lines better together.

Also I would hope that AI would seal off Crimea much much faster, and at the moment of your break through over Kertsch Strait would already have started to withdraw back at least to a forward line west of Stalingrad to avoid this kind of a major trap.

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RE: German units designations - 5/4/2010 10:02:58 PM

SGHunt

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...or simply reinforced the Crimea, or even Perekop, once the Kerch peninsula was forced. If the Germans had spared even a couple of divisions, that whole ugly breakthrough could have been avoided. Heaven knows how to code this size of game and to make the AI react before it has reached a crisis.

Does the AI learn 'in game' - ie does it have any way of 'reading' the kind of player you are? Can it start to 'guess' your profile based on previous moves - cautious, aggressive, high or low risk, a methodical build up man like Monty (at least up until Market Garden) or a rapid, almost intuitive exploiter like Guderian etc? I know some games claim to do this but have no idea if it is even vaguley possible. Of course, us humies would simply then 'teach' the AI that we're one thing, only to surprise it when it thought it had us sussed!

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RE: German units designations - 5/5/2010 12:42:45 AM

Hard Sarge

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well, remember we had a major battle going on down there, that is what all of them units are Guards, once I broke the Ge inf Divs there, the Romy fell quick

I over ran it fast, but once cleared, nothing they were going to do, the AI reacted simi quick, it knew how fast I could move

still think the issue/idea is, if the AI had a goal it would of stopped and worked on, as it, it just kept rolling forward, but it did cut off the whole south, it just ran out of weather for it to be worth while

most of the armor I caught, I had kept pinned, while it tried to pull back, and once I cut the main rail line, they had to walk out

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RE: German units designations - 5/5/2010 2:12:39 PM

Ron

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Don't get me wrong, I appreciate showing all the screenshots, 'warts' and all. I was pleasantly surprised to actually see the AI attempt to pull back the line after overextending itself. As with all games one learns, the AI can and will be exploited regardless - to make one that avoids obvious mistakes like plowing through the hole you left it between Rostov/Stalingrad or leading with Security Divisions etc will be benchmark of a great game.

Your analogy is a strawman. I think if the German General Staff had an inkling of what was in store for them beyond Stalingrad and the Volga and the requisite authority (read Hitler) I'm pretty positive they would have acted differently.

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Is the AI an AI? - 5/5/2010 2:35:21 PM

FM WarB

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If it is an Artificial Intelligence it may be able to learn as the game goes on. If, as I suspect it is a Programmed Opponent it can only do what it's programmed to do and the programmer cannot cover all eventualities in a game this vast.

If it is indeed a Programmed Opponent, call it that and dont expect it to be Mr Data from Star Treck.

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RE: German units designations - 5/5/2010 3:43:11 PM

Hard Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate showing all the screenshots, 'warts' and all. I was pleasantly surprised to actually see the AI attempt to pull back the line after overextending itself. As with all games one learns, the AI can and will be exploited regardless - to make one that avoids obvious mistakes like plowing through the hole you left it between Rostov/Stalingrad or leading with Security Divisions etc will be benchmark of a great game.

Your analogy is a strawman. I think if the German General Staff had an inkling of what was in store for them beyond Stalingrad and the Volga and the requisite authority (read Hitler) I'm pretty positive they would have acted differently.

well, remember, how it went, the same into the PTO, once you start winning, you start believing in yourself, in the East, the German Intel, seen and reported what was going on, what was there, the High Command didn't believe it, no way, you could "kill" over 200 Divs in 6 months and still have that many more Divs in Reserve, in the East like in the BoB, the High Command always believed, that was the last plane, the last Div, kill that, and there is no more coming, only the English, were never short of planes, and the Russians until very late, were never really short of men

now, of course, none of that has anything to do with the game, also, please remember, I didn't leave a hole in my line, the Germans drove a hole in my line, that I couldn't mantain, I shifted most of my reserves to Stalingrad and dug in (which also helped there training, those were pretty lousy troops, which wouldn't of stood a chance out in the open, trying to be a blocking force

the mistake I see, is when I pulled away from Rostov, the AI left a screening force and kept on heading East, it should of turned and kept the pressure on the shoulder

in the north and middle, it is doing a decent job, only now, it is getting stubborn, when it should of just gave up ground

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RE: German units designations - 5/5/2010 5:42:43 PM

SuluSea

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Thanks for the pix Sarge, the colors are fantastic!

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RE: German units designations - 5/5/2010 8:57:30 PM

Hard Sarge

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funny, we complain about the mistakes the AI makes, but then don't think the player is going to, to me, this looks like a pretty boneheaded play, I was so much in a rush, when i forced the gap, I forgot to make sure the rest of the troops could move forward and just rushed my Armor Corps in and up (was expecting the followers to spread and go down

now, the GE can move from the south and close the gap, come down from the north and trap, slaughter the corps

or, it may just pull back (which of course, may be the better move, it is the one, I don't want to see, now that I got some power and am in close, I want to stay close, but over all, a boneheaded move