RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 9:43:31 PM

AcePylut

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I don't believe radar, at the time, had altitude capabilities. I think it was more like "there's a big blob over there at bearing 330 at 50NM" sort of radar... not, "there's 100 2 engine planes and 45 Single engine planes flying at 300kias at 12,147ft ASL, bearing 330, range 50.123NM, heading 150"

And I like your thinking Kwik E.

Being a private pilot I know how "clear" clear weather can be. "Clear" can be clear with 3 mile visibility, it can be clear with unlimited visibility. Clear does not mean 'crystal clear' with no wind. Clear weather just means that there isn't more then 10% cloud coverage. Ground Haze is not considered cloud coverage, nor is fog, it's considered "Clear".

We need to break the mold that people think, when they see "clear" weather. We need to "get into peoples heads" that weather is imho THE most important thing, the thing that can be used to justify a great many "uncoordinated" results.

For I have flown in "clear" weather that made me sweat a little on my navigation. I"ve dead-reckoned, and the results did not put me in the exact location I wanted. This was all having a great weather forecast, accurate maps, Detection level 10 on the target airfield, slow aircraft that's forgiving of mistakes, backup navigation called "GPS", VOR, Loran.

I've flown "in the clouds" (i.e. instruments) only using an ADF (Automatic Direction finder. Basically a needle that points to AM radio stations, like the Japs homed in on at Hawaii)... and not only is that difficult to do, it's very mentally taxing. I can imagine that it's very very easy to get separated from another aircraft in such conditions.

All these factors are in "our collective conscience" of flying in 2010. We need to break that mold and think in terms of 1940 flying, not 2010 flying.

Add in this little case of "enemy trying to kill me", and things just got 100% more difficult.

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Post #: 31

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 10:32:15 PM

Kwik E Mart

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Joined: 7/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut�

I've flown "in the clouds" (i.e. instruments) only using an ADF� (Automatic Direction finder.� Basically a needle that points to AM radio stations, like�the Japs homed in on at Hawaii)... and not only is that difficult to do, it's very mentally taxing.� I can imagine that it's very very easy to get separated from another aircraft in such conditions.�

it also can be the recipe for ditching or aborting due to bingo fuel, since even though a pilot is keeping the nose pointed at the ADF station, he may be taking a circuitous (and thus longer) route to the target due to strong cross winds...

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Post #: 32

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 10:54:33 PM

AcePylut

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Joined: 3/19/2004
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Exactly... if you keep the nose pointed at the ADF in a crosswind, you end up flying a route that lookes like the nike swoop.

If you know, exactly, the winds aloft, you can fly into the wind slightly to fly a straight line.� I.e. your nose might point at 30degrees, but when you factor in a wind blowing, your flight path might be along a 0 degree heading.

That's "knowing" the winds aloft.� If you don't, and they didn't back then, you just kinda play guesswork... and if you don't guess right, you're not going to appear 500nm downrange at point X at exactly Time Y:yy:zz

Couple that with "no adf" over enemy territory, just dead-reckoning (or, should the flight be over land that you know, you can use known landmarks to make corrections) - and it's just not "easy" to end up at the right place and the right time.

Easier to do in Europe, as we had accurate maps of everything Europe, and the European theater we were flying over was about the size of Borneo (based on a very unscientific "look at Europe, look at Borneo" on Google Earth guesstimate)

< Message edited by AcePylut -- 4/1/2010 10:55:20 PM >

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Post #: 33

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 11:23:43 PM

TheElf

Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

I'd also ask the OP what the weather report was for the hex.

I"m really thinking that weather is one of the most important factors in all this.�

Weather was light rain, considering the bombers were able to find 2 heavy cruisers in the Hex I doubt the fighters should of had a problem since radar spotted at 34km out. moonlight was 97% so that couldn't of been a problem.

I decided I think leadership might of been an issue, perhaps australian I Corps wasn't the right command to put on moresby so I switched with an American Fighter command, and transfered Australian I Corps to Milne Bay. Sadly I wish I could of kept that turn so I could run more scenarios, overall I believe the main issue was the CAP was set for 16k and most likely simply didn't see the incoming planes.

You've got to be kidding me. If I find out this was at night....

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Post #: 34

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 11:54:16 PM

Misconduct

Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

I'd also ask the OP what the weather report was for the hex.

I"m really thinking that weather is one of the most important factors in all this.�

Weather was light rain, considering the bombers were able to find 2 heavy cruisers in the Hex I doubt the fighters should of had a problem since radar spotted at 34km out. moonlight was 97% so that couldn't of been a problem.

I decided I think leadership might of been an issue, perhaps australian I Corps wasn't the right command to put on moresby so I switched with an American Fighter command, and transfered Australian I Corps to Milne Bay. Sadly I wish I could of kept that turn so I could run more scenarios, overall I believe the main issue was the CAP was set for 16k and most likely simply didn't see the incoming planes.

You've got to be kidding me. If I find out this was at night....

this was not a night time raid, I only posted it because someone mentioned in another thread to post all information concerning day/night time conditions so I did as well.

(in reply to TheElf)

Post #: 35

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 11:59:10 PM

Misconduct

Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

I don't believe radar, at the time, had altitude capabilities.� I think it was more like "there's a big blob over there at bearing 330 at 50NM" sort of radar... not, "there's 100 2 engine planes and 45 Single engine planes flying at 300kias at 12,147ft ASL, bearing 330, range 50.123NM,�heading 150"

And I like your thinking Kwik E.

Being a private pilot I know how "clear" clear weather can be.� "Clear" can be clear with 3 mile visibility, it can be clear with unlimited visibility.� Clear does not mean 'crystal clear' with no wind.� Clear weather just means that there isn't more then 10% cloud coverage.� Ground Haze is not considered cloud coverage, nor is fog, it's considered "Clear".

We need to break the mold that people think, when they see "clear" weather.� We need to "get into peoples heads" that weather is imho THE most important thing, the thing that can be used to justify a great many "uncoordinated" results.�

For I have flown in "clear" weather that made me sweat�a little on my navigation.� I"ve dead-reckoned, and the results did not put me in the exact location I wanted.� This was all having a great weather forecast, accurate maps, Detection level 10 on the target airfield, slow aircraft that's forgiving of mistakes, backup navigation called "GPS", VOR, Loran.�

I've flown "in the clouds" (i.e. instruments) only using an ADF� (Automatic Direction finder.� Basically a needle that points to AM radio stations, like�the Japs homed in on at Hawaii)... and not only is that difficult to do, it's very mentally taxing.� I can imagine that it's very very easy to get separated from another aircraft in such conditions.�

All these factors are in "our collective conscience" of flying in 2010.� We need to break that mold and think in terms of 1940 flying, not 2010 flying.�

Add in this little case of "enemy trying to kill me", and things just got 100% more difficult.

I was thinking of the same thing, however what exactly are the game mechanics for "clear skies in hex" what does that mean? unlimited visibility? Im talking in game wise to clarify. What about clouds? Rain?

I searched the manual and it only states that weather is Clear, Partly Cloudy, Overcast, Rain, Thunderstorms.
Clearly thunderstorms mean planes are not flying, but is there a percentage of aircraft that will take off or is it basically a dice roll and you have to find out?

(in reply to AcePylut)

Post #: 36

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/2/2010 12:36:19 AM

AcePylut

Posts: 1494
Joined: 3/19/2004
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The answer to all your questions... is that I don't have a clue :)

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Post #: 37

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/2/2010 1:44:16 AM

Misconduct

Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline