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RE: Price - 4/11/2010 12:21:48 AM

TheHellPatrol

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I Haven't stopped by here for awhile but i had to say IMHO this release was a bargain! I know the amount of work it took because i played ATD 1 to death...Brilliant! I may have felt let down in the past but this is real masterpiece enhanced/advanced and the extra scenarios are simply awesome, and i don't wan't to digress to other threads but i appreciate the realism re:flags/nationalism....Bravo!

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Post #: 151

RE: Price - 4/11/2010 1:32:41 AM

TargAK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffreys

DBeves:

I would respectfully disagree. The scenarios included under the Kharkov 2.0 patch are "official" Kharkov scenarios that are presented as being up to SSG's standards are endorsed by SSG as a part of the game. They are provided automatically when you download the patch and are supported by SSG just like any other part of the game. I do sincerely thank those wonderful dedicated volunteers who did such a great job in producing Kirovagrad and Konrad (I believe Husky was produced in house, please correct me if I'm wrong), but no matter who produced them they were finalized and released under the auspices of SSG as a part of Kharkov.

This is different from Soltsy which is a very nice scenario, but makes no claim of being official or of having to meet the standards of SSG's official scenarios. The other battles are provided to me by SSG as part of the game and are part of the value that I receive when I purchase the game. They are in fact of substanltial value to me, and I feel they should certainly be included in any price comparison or purchase decision.

As an aside, I also read somewhere that some of the HPS scenarios are user produced, which would be a fine thing if true. Do you know if that is accurate?

In any case to get the same battles included in Kharkov and Across the Dneper for $90 you would have to spend $120 on HPS games and would still not have Kirovagrad. For me that makes the SSG games a better deal. Note though, that I do not mean this as a criticism of the HPS games which look to me as if they also provide excellent value for the money. In fact as a result of this discussion I am considering purchasing some of them, so my thanks to all those who have provided information about them.

HPS updates the engine for free on older titles,

This changes the math for customers that have purchased previous titles.

Kharkov= 60.00 physical shipment
ATD2= 50.00 "" "" "'
ATD1= 25.00 Digital DL only
Husky BiI = 60.00 Physical shipment
Total= 185.00

the 30.00 HPS price is for the physical disc as no Digital DL is offered.

Factor in that HPS Smolensk main game is 171 turns compared to Kharkov's 16 and the difference in map size the apples to apples comparison is not the same.

HPS and SSG both share space on my hard drives and I enjoy both equaly (if pushed SSG would be my favorite).

The main weakness of SSG titles is the fixed screen size and older titles becoming obsolete once a new engine comes out. If these two things were

changed than SSG would be almost perfect

(in reply to jeffreysutro@jeffreysutro.com)

Post #: 152

RE: Price - 4/11/2010 2:04:13 AM

Fred98

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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TARG
The main weakness of SSG titles is..........and older titles becoming obsolete once a new engine comes out.

If these two things were changed than SSG would be almost perfect

This thing has been fixed.

"Kharkov" is the engine. Other scenarios will follow. If the "Kharkov" engine is updated all following scenarios afterwards are automatically updated.

Players have been listened to and been heard.

-

(in reply to TargAK)

Post #: 153

RE: Price - 4/11/2010 8:47:13 PM

DBeves

Posts: 403
Joined: 7/29/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

quote:

Jalla

If you had read this thread through, then you understand that Matrix have discounted AtD2 because they couldn't give a direct discount to AtD owners (by the way, the discount (as far as I am aware) was for previous AtD owners - not people who bought Kharkov).

So - the point I'm trying to make in your particular case is this -
a) just because you bought Kharkov does not mean you were getting a discount
b) you have actually been offered AtD2 at a discounted price

None of you lot might not like that. Some of you might not even believe it. But just because you don't believe they have discounted it, doesn't make it so...does it

I think it's time to put the thread to sleep. It's a dark day when most of the posts on a new release are about accusations of corruption. The price is what the price is. You've also been told here, by Erik, that they will come good in the next game for customers who bought.

Pay and play or don't pay and leave.

I can promise you I will not be posting in this thread again. The whining - and whilst I hate using that word, after all that's been said on this forum by Matrix and others, that is what it is and it's still not enough - is just plain annoying now.

Nighty night peeps.

Yes well - who made you god of posting ? If you dont like the discussion then dont read it - dont tell others what they should post about. If people are in here complaining about the price and saying its too expensive for them to buy - that is valid criticism. The fact that people are here saying they cant justify the expenditure is entirely the point isnt it ? To me, one person buying at 35 is worse then two buying at 25 . That to me is something matrix and ssg would want to know. If you have no problem with the price then I dont really see why you have a need to post at all really - to deny others that right is just arrogance..

Well - I wasn't going to post again, but it appears you were determined to bring me out of retirement.

So I made a post and you choose to reply based on the two sentences "Pay and play or don't play and leave" and "...is just plain boring now"? You completely disregarded the rest of my post which made more sense (with regard to the post I was responding to) than some other posts on here...AND you choose to ignore posts with even lesser content on this thread and focus on mine? WoW!

quote:

If you have no problem with the price then I dont really see why you have a need to post at all really - to deny others that right is just arrogance..

So is freedom of speech is only acceptable if it adheres to your point of view?....right.

No - it was your use of the word "Whining" that made me respond to your post in particular actually. I didnt say you coudnt respond did I? Merely that in a post complaining about the price, which you dont have a problem with and in a thread you yourself said was "Whining" WHY you would want to post - I mean no one has you tied to your computer forcing you to read it are they.

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Post #: 154

RE: Price - 4/11/2010 8:58:11 PM

DBeves

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffreys

DBeves:

I would respectfully disagree. The scenarios included under the Kharkov 2.0 patch are "official" Kharkov scenarios that are presented as being up to SSG's standards are endorsed by SSG as a part of the game. They are provided automatically when you download the patch and are supported by SSG just like any other part of the game. I do sincerely thank those wonderful dedicated volunteers who did such a great job in producing Kirovagrad and Konrad (I believe Husky was produced in house, please correct me if I'm wrong), but no matter who produced them they were finalized and released under the auspices of SSG as a part of Kharkov.

This is different from Soltsy which is a very nice scenario, but makes no claim of being official or of having to meet the standards of SSG's official scenarios. The other battles are provided to me by SSG as part of the game and are part of the value that I receive when I purchase the game. They are in fact of substanltial value to me, and I feel they should certainly be included in any price comparison or purchase decision.

As an aside, I also read somewhere that some of the HPS scenarios are user produced, which would be a fine thing if true. Do you know if that is accurate?

In any case to get the same battles included in Kharkov and Across the Dneper for $90 you would have to spend $120 on HPS games and would still not have Kirovagrad. For me that makes the SSG games a better deal. Note though, that I do not mean this as a criticism of the HPS games which look to me as if they also provide excellent value for the money. In fact as a result of this discussion I am considering purchasing some of them, so my thanks to all those who have provided information about them.

Look, some of this comes down to your view of the two engines .. I prefer the HPS titles - but still like the SSG games. My original post said I bought it so that much is obvious - and I dont regard it as "Whining" merely as making a point. IIRC when the original ATD was released as an add on form korsun it was priced as an add on. My original surprise at the price was based on that - not being able to see what was different between the two situations apart from a decision to make it more expensive.

Its a good game and if I ever get round to playing it I suspect I will get value for money out of it - just because I raised and issue about the price doesnt mean to say I dont like the game or value its content. The engine has some missing elements that make it have less appeal than HPS games but I still like it. And not least because it offers a campaign I can fifnish in a reasonable amount of time.

At the end of the day - Having added up all the turn lengths in just the HPS titles I own - even if I manage to play a turn a day I have enough content to last me till I retire.

(in reply to jeffreysutro@jeffreysutro.com)

Post #: 155

RE: Price - 4/11/2010 10:17:03 PM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves
No - it was your use of the word "Whining" that made me respond to your post in particular actually. I didnt say you coudnt respond did I? Merely that in a post complaining about the price, which you dont have a problem with and in a thread you yourself said was "Whining" WHY you would want to post - I mean no one has you tied to your computer forcing you to read it are they.

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Alba gu' brath

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Post #: 156

RE: Price - 4/11/2010 10:20:43 PM

jeffreysutro@jeffreysutro.com

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quote:

and I dont regard it as "Whining" merely as making a point

DBeves:

I apologize if I implied that you were whining. I did not intend to do so.

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All My Best,

Jeff Sutro

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Post #: 157

RE: Price - 4/11/2010 10:33:23 PM

JudgeDredd

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I think you may be off the hook there jeffreys. I'm pretty sure he was referring to my post...even though my post had nothing to do with him.

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Alba gu' brath

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Post #: 158

RE: Price - 4/11/2010 11:09:51 PM

parusski

Posts: 4804
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WHINE WHINE WHINE, ARGUE ARGUE ARGUE, MISUNDERSTANDINGS.

GOD this is getting to be boring, and really pointless.

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Post #: 159

RE: Price - 4/11/2010 11:21:49 PM

DBeves

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quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

WHINE WHINE WHINE, ARGUE ARGUE ARGUE, MISUNDERSTANDINGS.

GOD this is getting to be boring, and really pointless.

Yes... almost as pointless as reading and posting in a thread you think is pointless ...

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Post #: 160

RE: Price - 4/11/2010 11:27:06 PM

parusski

Posts: 4804
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From: Jackson Tn
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It really is pointless to point out how pointless my point was.

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Post #: 161

RE: Price - 4/12/2010 1:02:54 AM

LarryP

Posts: 3783
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This is getting good now!

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Post #: 162

RE: Price - 4/12/2010 2:38:31 AM

sabre1

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Point taken Parusski!

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Post #: 163

RE: Price - 4/12/2010 7:25:42 AM

JudgeDredd

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ok - now we've got some flow. (<---how pointless was that?)

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Alba gu' brath

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Post #: 164

RE: Price - 4/12/2010 1:03:57 PM

sabre1

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I would respond JD to your point JD, but you would have to counterpoint my point the the point I was making about Parusski.

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Post #: 165

RE: Price - 4/12/2010 1:11:21 PM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
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lol

Ok - I will apologise for saying the thread was all whining. Everyone has their price point and for absolutely sure people should tell Matrix why they are not going to buy a game. That way Matrix know the reason for it. Maybe help them do some maths and re-think.

So I apologise.

I do know I will get my monies worth from the game, as I did with Kharkov. How can I be sure? Because Kharkov has less units, less turns and is a smaller map. seems pretty obvious (being as the same great engine is being used) that those factors should alone increase my enjoyment per �.

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Alba gu' brath

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Post #: 166

RE: Price - 4/12/2010 2:40:35 PM

jhdeerslayer

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From: Michigan
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I'm playing the Russians with German AI +. I'm on Turn 5 now and glad I purchased this one for sure. More flavor than the orginal ATD I think. The AO's add to this for sure. Each turn as the Russians for me takes about 45 minutes plus AI turn resolution. Of course experiences will vary but the map is big and much to review and check. Filing holes in my line is challenging too.

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Post #: 167

RE: Price - 4/13/2010 1:01:47 AM

parusski

Posts: 4804
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Dredd, Sabre, I need to stop this wonderful conversation. I am leading the point of an attack in ATD2. My son thinks my plain is aimless, or even pointless. See ya.

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Post #: 168

RE: Price - 4/13/2010 5:28:34 AM

V22 Osprey

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It was pointless to start this thread to begin with.

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Post #: 169

RE: Price - 4/13/2010 6:10:29 AM

TargAK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

It was pointless to start this thread to begin with.

�Yeah well, that�s just, ya know, like, your opinion, man.�

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Post #: 170

RE: Price - 4/13/2010 7:22:16 AM

JudgeDredd

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I disagree V22 - I think it is important to let developers know why your not buying a game...if you don't then they don't know what to do to remedy that. What was pointless was the inane head banging (myself included).

Targ - that is an awesome film.

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Alba gu' brath

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Post #: 171

RE: Price - 4/13/2010 9:54:48 AM

papajack

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

Well - I bought it ...

But I have to say - that is expensive for a one scenario expansion.

This is the very first post and I will like to end it by saying

" Well I just bought it too and NO , it is not expensive

Thank you

< Message edited by papajack -- 4/13/2010 9:56:36 AM >

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Post #: 172

RE: Price - 4/13/2010 12:53:50 PM

Adam Parker

Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jalla

As I've bought all the SSG previous titles (Korsun, AtD, BiN, BiI, Battlefront, Kharkov etc.)...

Jas you bought every SSG title but you only purchased Kharkov because you would get a discount on AtD2 some day as you claimed in your original post?

You've also never had a need to post a question or comment and Matrix before either?

Operation Konrad Comment

Someone needs to re-do the map and take out roughly 90% of the town labels. The map unfortunately is pretty much unplayable as is with the labels on and though the scenario designer has commented somewhere that he could not use the standard SSG map pallete, the look of the map is just not up to publisher-grade.

Being free it really doesn't matter all that much but imo despite all the undoubtedly hard work put inside it should not have been included with the same "official" add-on as Husky. It's like putting a DTP map inside a bona fide board wargame box.

PS: In the scenario selection screen Operation Konrad is spelled with a small (k)onrad. FYI for the patch.

< Message edited by Adam Parker -- 4/13/2010 12:55:44 PM >

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Post #: 173

RE: Price - 4/13/2010 1:15:22 PM

Pete AU

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From: Australia - Perth
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jalla

As I've bought all the SSG previous titles (Korsun, AtD, BiN, BiI, Battlefront, Kharkov etc.)...

Jas you bought every SSG title but you only purchased Kharkov because you would get a discount on AtD2 some day as you claimed in your original post? You've also never had a need to post a question or comment and Matrix before either?

Operation Konrad Comment

Someone needs to re-do the map and take out roughly 90% of the town labels. The map unfortunately is pretty much unplayable as is with the labels on and though the scenario designer has commented somewhere that he could not use the standard SSG map pallete, the look of the map is just not up to publisher-grade.

Being free it really doesn't matter all that much but imo despite all the undoubtedly hard work put inside it should not have been included with the same "official" add-on as Husky. It's like putting a DTP map inside a bona fide board wargame box.

PS: In the scenario selection screen Operation Konrad is spelled with a small (k)onrad. FYI for the patch.

Well, at least you know why there are only a few user made scenarios.

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Post #: 174

RE: Price - 4/13/2010 3:09:07 PM

jjdenver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
Operation Konrad Comment

Someone needs to re-do the map and take out roughly 90% of the town labels. The map unfortunately is pretty much unplayable as is with the labels on and though the scenario designer has commented somewhere that he could not use the standard SSG map pallete, the look of the map is just not up to publisher-grade.

Being free it really doesn't matter all that much but imo despite all the undoubtedly hard work put inside it should not have been included with the same "official" add-on as Husky. It's like putting a DTP map inside a bona fide board wargame box.

re: map unplayable w/ names on. That's the beauty of map options built into the game. You can easily turn off all town names and leave on only important map names, which removes the problem you describe. You're also left with some nice extra info about town names viewable by right clicking on the hex to see town details including name. Problem solved and extra historical info to boot. There ya go. :)

As for whether the scenario should have been included w/ the add on - I think it's a great idea to include it as it avoids players having to go search for and download the scenario. I'd favor including every single scenario to avoid having to search them out. SSG is pretty bad about updating the scenario downloads on their site so as time goes on you end up having to search lots of threads to find the latest version of a scenario. I guess that's an aside, but bottom line is that not having to find scenarios on the web and having them delivered in a bundle download is great imo.

Whether you want to play the scenario or not (I think it's a scenario I'd like to play, and from talking to other players who have played it, it's a lot of fun), there's no reason not to include it other than some feeling on your part that the scenario isn't exactly as you'd like it? You can feel free to mod the scenario I would guess or create your own scenario.

Thank again for the scenario.

< Message edited by jjdenver -- 4/13/2010 3:42:39 PM >

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Post #: 175

RE: Price - 4/13/2010 4:30:50 PM

Noakesy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker Being free it really doesn't matter all that much but imo despite all the undoubtedly hard work put inside it should not have been included with the same "official" add-on as Husky. It's like putting a DTP map inside a bona fide board wargame box.

Sorry don't agree with this, I think the map and counter artwork are excellent. It's different in some respects from the other main maps, but I think it looks very good. Without the Custom(er) Made Scenarios we would have very few ready made games to play.

As per JJs comment, it also means we are playing with the same version. There are a number of really good Custom(er) Made Scenarios on the Run5 site which are detracted from somewhat by the fact that updates are in the forums themselves.

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Post #: 176

RE: Price - 4/13/2010 8:40:33 PM

DBeves

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jalla

As I've bought all the SSG previous titles (Korsun, AtD, BiN, BiI, Battlefront, Kharkov etc.)...

Jas you bought every SSG title but you only purchased Kharkov because you would get a discount on AtD2 some day as you claimed in your original post? You've also never had a need to post a question or comment and Matrix before either?

Operation Konrad Comment

Someone needs to re-do the map and take out roughly 90% of the town labels. The map unfortunately is pretty much unplayable as is with the labels on and though the scenario designer has commented somewhere that he could not use the standard SSG map pallete, the look of the map is just not up to publisher-grade.

Being free it really doesn't matter all that much but imo despite all the undoubtedly hard work put inside it should not have been included with the same "official" add-on as Husky. It's like putting a DTP map inside a bona fide board wargame box.

PS: In the scenario selection screen Operation Konrad is spelled with a small (k)onrad. FYI for the patch.

quote:

comment, it also means

Yes - Disagree with that entirely - Have no problem with the map artwork at all - in fact all the stuff done by this guy is excellent. Dont like the labels then turn them off.

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 177

RE: Price - 4/13/2010 11:08:55 PM

Adam Parker

Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL:

Whether you want to play the scenario or not (I think it's a scenario I'd like to play, and from talking to other players who have played it, it's a lot of fun),...

Have you even looked at it?

Re Interface Advice

Thanks for the interface advice folks but I've played this series since The Ardennes Offensive 1 way back in the 90's. I bought my copy of Kharkov to help SSG with its testing btw.

It's good that we can have differing opinions but the advice to "turn off the map labels" is the same pathetic advice that's been offered for nearly 2 decades now (in this and other games) but game design has matured and become more sophisiticated since then. What about smaller and smoother map label fonting? What about taking the time to make everything consistent out of the box than appearing to look lazy? That's the perception it leaves me. I'd never have sanctioned Konrad's inclusion in this way. Again, a lot of work has gone into it but to me it just isn't "SSG Commericial Standard".

(in reply to jjdenver)

Post #: 178

RE: Price - 4/13/2010 11:35:17 PM

Fred98

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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
Operation Konrad Comment

Someone needs to re-do the map and take out roughly 90% of the town labels.

Hit the shortcut "C". This removes 90% of the town labels.

Hit "C" again and it removes 100% of the town labels.

Hot "C" again and all labels are restored.

-

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 179

RE: Price - 4/13/2010 11:49:45 PM

V22 Osprey

Posts: 1593
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I disagree V22 - I think it is important to let developers know why your not buying a game...if you don't then they don't know what to do to remedy that. What was pointless was the inane head banging (myself included).

Targ - that is an awesome film.

Well Judge, let quote the original post:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

Well - I bought it ...

But I have to say - that is expensive for a one scenario expansion.

I think the first part was definitly a little pointless, and as for second part, well everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but it's funny how he doesn't get a post like this from TARG:

quote:

ORIGINAL: TARG

quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

It was pointless to start this thread to begin with.

�Yeah well, that�s just, ya know, like, your opinion, man.�