Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: freeboy

regarding bb at range.. a bombard mission, not part of a tf invasion, should not get theese results.. so, are we really talkin gabout the same thing? a BB ca at close range is going t obe hit, heck, even a morter batery would have a chance at 2k yards.. but what navy in the world sends a bb in to 2k in suppor tof an invasion? ok.. anyway

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ORIGINAL: witpqs

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ORIGINAL: Nikademus

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Even in 2010, with digital FC systems operating at the speed of light, a maneuvering target MUST be shot at with homing weapons to have any sort of high PK. Straight-running weapons only work when the target sits there and says "Kill Me."

Classic.

He exaggerates - they don't have to actually say "Kill Me."

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

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ORIGINAL: witpqs

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ORIGINAL: Nikademus

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Even in 2010, with digital FC systems operating at the speed of light, a maneuvering target MUST be shot at with homing weapons to have any sort of high PK. Straight-running weapons only work when the target sits there and says "Kill Me."

Classic.

He exaggerates - they don't have to actually say "Kill Me."

Well, no flags or nothin', but they ARE walking in a dark alley with $10 bills hanging out of their pockets.

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ORIGINAL: John Lansford

I think the latest patch has affected the ships vs CD routines somehow, giving the shore based weapons more accuracy and perhaps more damaging potential.  I've certainly not seen BB's take as much damage bombarding a defended target as mine did vs Mili just a few days ago (well after the last patch was installed), and from my continuous recon flights, there's only the one CD unit on that island.

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There wasn't an 8" gun in the world that would penetrate a USN BB's armor (talking belt and main turret/control areas here) even at short range.

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Either way, in real life the ships would have simply stayed outside the effective range of the guns.
I am sorry, but an admiral would have to be a real moron to set there and allow his ships to be sandpapered to death.
Perhaps I should send the Yamato in the next task force. I'd bet those light cruiser caliber guns would find a way to sink her also with the way the routine is written.

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

OK, since you persist in ignoring the rest of my logical points, I'll make this my last post on this with you.

Telephones in 1890 were, to be kind, primitive. (And of course you assume that they would never have been updated in the intervening 50 years) I posted eyewitness accounts that the FC wiring at Saipan was shot away by ship bombardment. (And as I have mentioned several times, Saipan was NOT a pre-war Coast Defense Installation..., but a set of guns placed on the coast during the war. In a real Coast Defense Installation such as the original example, communications are buried and protected.) OTOH, shipboard FC is by local sound-powered phone, or even in the same compartment within earshot. Also, installations like Ft. Story and Ft. Monroe (I grew up in Va. Beach BTW, and have been to both locations many times) are separated by about forty miles and open water. To say there were phone lines between each in 1890? (I didn't say that..., you did. And if you ARE familiar with those forts, you must have certainly seen some of the "base end spotting stations" located up and down the coasts near the forts. And those WERE connected electronically to the plotting rooms of the forts.) Uh, OK. And telegraphs? You must be joking. Real-time targetting by telegraph? Whatever.

As for your obsession with rangefinding, I posted the counter to that. Rangefinding is NOT the "key" to FC. It's one component. To get accurate fire with rangefinding, one must assume that the target cooperates in the other components of the solution--speed and course--in order to track to the plotted curve predicted with range as only ONE component. If the target maneuvers radically, as ships can do, then range is not determinative. Shells have a time-of-flight. You can SEE 16-in. shells in the air. The shooters cannot know what the target is doing re speed and course changes at the time they pull the trigger. Even in 2010, with digital FC systems operating at the speed of light, a maneuvering target MUST be shot at with homing weapons to have any sort of high PK. Straight-running weapons only work when the target sits there and says "Kill Me." Right! But if the attacking ship is to have ANY chance of hitting it's own targets, it can't be out there maneuvering like a sports car doing "doughnuts" in the parking lot. It has to give it's own plotting team some consistancy of course and speed for them to do their jobs.

The truth, re the game, is that there is one CD routine that must work for PH as well as Mili, and those two situations are as unlike each other as assaulting with a Marine Division and an Indian Army artillery unit. (For once we are in agreement. One of the game's most regrettable failings is the failure to differentiate between real Coast Defense Installations and just guns mounted on the coast.)

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ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Having explored the Puget Sound Triangle of Fire I do know for a fact that in case of enemy bombardment/invasion, part of the procedure involved an officer rowing out to the enemy battlefleet in order to assign them their proper positions in the anchorage. That way all the effort put into those pre-arranged fire lanes woudn't go to waste. Chivalry in War is not dead after all.

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ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Bullwinkle

Yes, it was me talking about USS Tennessee.  Was hit by 6" shells off of Saipan (I think) and lost a secondary turret, but also silenced the battery in less than a minute after that.

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ORIGINAL: seydlitz

So, to summarize,

1. Do not include warships in amphibous TFs if enemy CDs are present.

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My BB's had "escorts don't bombard" when they shelled Miri and got 20+ system damage for their troubles. Unless that base had 14" guns firing back at them I don't see how they got hit if they were standing offshore out of range. As for your cruiser 8" guns' penetration values, what are they at 2000 yds?

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ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

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ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

Anyway, I faintly remember (I'm no code expert) that penetration (the chance of penetrating hits) increases at lower ranges (well, it certainly should). And even a 180mm gun would be able to penetrate battleship armor at 2,000 yards. Thusfar I see no problems with the results.

Yes, penetration increases as the range decreases. But not to a great degree. A loooooonnnnnnng time ago, I posted some results from cruiser surface action (HMAS Canberra vs. Mogami) and complained because I had 1 CA and 3 CL's vs Mogami and not a single hit penetrated, even the 4 8" hits at 1k yards. I wasn't lucky enough to get a torpedo hit on her, so she steamed away (from PM to 2 hexes from Rabaul the next phase). She moderately damaged 3 CL's and took 45 non penetrating hits.

I know that the surface routine has since been modified, but not in regards to penetration (I think).

So, basically, if I couldn't get 8" hits to penetrate a CA at 1k yards, then those Russian CD 180mm hits won't penetrate BB armor at 2k yards.

The routine changed so that there are more superstructure hits. If a BB was hit 150 times, it's probable that 50 of them were penetrating hits on the superstructure. The BB would have SYS and Fire damage of 99 by the end of that ordeal. (which will sink it that turn, or the next.)

I think the CD routine is working well. But, ships and invasion task forces should have a logical withdrawal option. There's no logical reason that a BB would take the punishment as suicide instead of retreating.

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Right! But if the attacking ship is to have ANY chance of hitting it's own targets, it can't be out there maneuvering like a sports car doing "doughnuts" in the parking lot. It has to give it's own plotting team some consistancy of course and speed for them to do their jobs.

The truth, re the game, is that there is one CD routine that must work for PH as well as Mili, and those two situations are as unlike each other as assaulting with a Marine Division and an Indian Army artillery unit. (For once we are in agreement. One of the game's most regrettable failings is the failure to differentiate between real Coast Defense Installations and just guns mounted on the coast.)

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ORIGINAL: seydlitz

So, to summarize,

1. Do not include warships in amphibous TFs if enemy CDs are present.
2. The CD/amphib TF routine will result in the loss or serious damage to the warships.
3. The current routine assumes that the warships steam into the anchorage and drop anchor at point blank range. Their guns can not depress enough to supress the CD units.
4. The warships will be the "meat shield" for the transports but even after they are destroyed damage will still be done to the transports.
5. If, however, you are trying to launch an invasion up a navigable river with CD forts protecting the river's mouth, you can safely sail past the forts without them engaging as long as you are in an amphibious TF. (See Rader's AAR...he is fighting Russia also and pulled this one off.)
6. Computer Admirals and Captains will stay in position like lemmings until their commands are totally destroyed. Retreat is not a consideration. In the binary world, these commanders are all zeroes.

I have to keep telling myself that the entire task force must have strayed into a dense and previously unmarked minefield as there is no other explaination for the loss of so many good ships.

It kind of goes like this You Tube Video....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAhFumDrxEE

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ORIGINAL: bklooste

supression does NOT work anymore not since the fire rate has been bumbed up. Read the earlier report on a Bombardment force that got smashed.  I do not that with Bombardment BBs have a higher chance to survive ( but still die) prob due to the shorter time.

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ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Keregulen,

Sorry that I didn't save the combat report to provide definitive proof that I'm telling the truth.  Here was the TF composition:

5 BB's (prewar types)
2 CLAA's
2 CA's
6 DD's

The orders were to bombard, with escorts set to "no bombard".  Mili had and still has been reconned from Makin with a squadron of F-5's and one of B-25's, plus aerial bombing raids from B-24's and B-25's from Tarawa and Makin.  I've also had two CV's hit the place occasionally when they sweep through the Marshalls, and no supply ships have made it there in at least a month and lived.

Every single one of the BB's took 20+ System damage, plus numerous weapon/device damage (mostly AA and secondary weapon mounts).  One of them had 28 System damage.  The two CA's took similar System and weapon damage, the CLAA's and DD's nothing.  IIRC Mili took some port damage and perhaps one or two guns were disabled.

Since Mili is still Japanese, I'll create yet another BB TF and send it down there and put the combat report up here once it occurs.

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ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Keregulen,

Sorry that I didn't save the combat report to provide definitive proof that I'm telling the truth.  Here was the TF composition:

5 BB's (prewar types)
2 CLAA's
2 CA's
6 DD's

The orders were to bombard, with escorts set to "no bombard".  Mili had and still has been reconned from Makin with a squadron of F-5's and one of B-25's, plus aerial bombing raids from B-24's and B-25's from Tarawa and Makin.  I've also had two CV's hit the place occasionally when they sweep through the Marshalls, and no supply ships have made it there in at least a month and lived.

Every single one of the BB's took 20+ System damage, plus numerous weapon/device damage (mostly AA and secondary weapon mounts).  One of them had 28 System damage.  The two CA's took similar System and weapon damage, the CLAA's and DD's nothing.  IIRC Mili took some port damage and perhaps one or two guns were disabled.

Since Mili is still Japanese, I'll create yet another BB TF and send it down there and put the combat report up here once it occurs.

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ORIGINAL: bklooste

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Right! But if the attacking ship is to have ANY chance of hitting it's own targets, it can't be out there maneuvering like a sports car doing "doughnuts" in the parking lot. It has to give it's own plotting team some consistancy of course and speed for them to do their jobs.

The truth, re the game, is that there is one CD routine that must work for PH as well as Mili, and those two situations are as unlike each other as assaulting with a Marine Division and an Indian Army artillery unit. (For once we are in agreement. One of the game's most regrettable failings is the failure to differentiate between real Coast Defense Installations and just guns mounted on the coast.)

Sorry a ship will always maneuver to the detriment of a firing solution. Thats what most of the FC in battle ships was about and why they were far superior in WWII then WWI . Being able to maneuver , quickly determine a solution despite roll etc. There are a large number of cases in ship to ship fights where they zig zag , then quickly turn , fire ( and bring most turrets into play) and continue evading rinse and repeat .

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ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Keregulen,

Sorry that I didn't save the combat report to provide definitive proof that I'm telling the truth.  Here was the TF composition:

5 BB's (prewar types)
2 CLAA's
2 CA's
6 DD's

The orders were to bombard, with escorts set to "no bombard".  Mili had and still has been reconned from Makin with a squadron of F-5's and one of B-25's, plus aerial bombing raids from B-24's and B-25's from Tarawa and Makin.  I've also had two CV's hit the place occasionally when they sweep through the Marshalls, and no supply ships have made it there in at least a month and lived.

Every single one of the BB's took 20+ System damage, plus numerous weapon/device damage (mostly AA and secondary weapon mounts).  One of them had 28 System damage.  The two CA's took similar System and weapon damage, the CLAA's and DD's nothing.  IIRC Mili took some port damage and perhaps one or two guns were disabled.

Since Mili is still Japanese, I'll create yet another BB TF and send it down there and put the combat report up here once it occurs.

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ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Uhh, Keregulein, the CLAA's didn't bombard at all.  If the Mili defenders have only 15cm guns then the BB's and CA's should have been able to sit outside their range and bombard to their heart's content.