RE: Issues with PRIVATE ships

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Distant Worlds 1 Series >> RE: Issues with PRIVATE ships

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RE: Issues with PRIVATE ships - 4/15/2010 10:05:49 AM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

I've found that private ships upgrade themselves very soon after upgrading their design.

Fascinating... this actually is a very big point and solves several of the OPs issues. he just needs to upgrade their design and they will automatically retrofit.

Lets have a point by point:
AI dont using all the freighters cargo. Waste of cargo components.
-Cargo component is really cheap. And it uses as much as it can... sometimes there is just not enough stuff to fill it... its no big deal actually.

Not being able to tell the miners where to mine.
-so? its never been an issue that I could tell, they mine pretty much everyone and get you what you need. And it is private property after all.

Not being able to tell them not to build miners.
-The private sector pays you money to use your shipyard to build miner ships, which it then uses to mine... I don't see any reason why you would ever want to tell them not to build ships. Ships build by private sector = money in your pocket. What do you care that they build them?

Not being able to retrofit mining stations.
-Do they retrofit like freighters do when you update the design?

Not being able to retrofit private ships.
-As mentioned, they upgrade automatically if you change the design... but over time. Actually not being able to retrofit MILITARY ships is an issue, it was partially addressed in the last patch (a few days ago), and will be fully addressed on the next patch (due in a week)

Not being able to tell the AI to start bringing people to my resorts.
-They bring people to resorts if people WANT to go to your resorts... did you build your resorts somewhere scenic?

Not being able to tell the AI to bring fuel where its needed. (research station near black hole had fuel, untill a ship refueled on it, and then the research got crippled, forever... and no freighter went there to refuel it, none of the over a hundred freighters.)
- It would be mind bogglingly tedious to do that manually... what you should do is file a bug about it not happening automatically... There is no need to build research stations at black holes. Research modules are cheap and placed in every starbase by default if you let the AI design, resulting in more research capacity then you need. If you do it manually you can save some by making "research bases" (although this puts your research at greater risk of all being destroyed at once) and place them near a black hole for 600% bonus.. or put them in a supernova for 400% bonus... the supernova research stations have access to plenty of light and can generate their own energy via collectors... so they never need any fuel, ever. Arm them and give them enough shields to overcome the shield damage and they will eventually charge up to full shields (shield damage is a flat -1/second

Not being able to change private ships combat strategy on the go. Its a pain to watch them do a bee line for the space creatures mouth.
-Private means you don't control them... if their strategy is lacking then their AI needs improving, point out specific improvements.

Not being able to tell them to stop wasting money, or not being able to tell them to start wasting the money.
-Who?

Not being able to tell passenger ships where to get people and where to take them.
-wow you really want to micromanage every single tiny aspect don't you... they are passengers, they go where they want to.

Not being able to tell freighters wich luxuries, how much of each and where to take them.
-They take them where they are needed.

Not being able to tell private to build more passanger ships.
-Now this is just being silly... why would you be able to tell private citizens to build more private ships?

Private ships entering enemy territory and getting annoying messages as if they were military.
-Only if they are armed... and yes that is pretty annoying.

Not being able to check easily what the Private ships are doing, why they are doing it, for how long will they do it, etc.
-why do you care so much about every minutae of the private sector?

OP. I really suggest you just leave the private sector be and instead focus on controlling the state assets... I am having more then enough trouble managing the state assets of a large empire on a 1400 star galaxy. I automate a lot and control individual ships while the AI controls the rest... Just let the private sector be... and if they are behaving stupidly, point out a batter behavior and suggest it for a future patch.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 4/15/2010 10:21:51 AM >

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Post #: 31

RE: Issues with PRIVATE ships - 4/15/2010 11:06:02 AM

Cheet4h

Posts: 59
Joined: 3/20/2010
Status: offline

About the meory issue on Spore:

The planets in that game aren't really saved, if not colonized. And even then they are created again via algorithms.
Uncolonized planets are not saved. If i remember right, only their state of ecological development, the races and the sort of spice is saved. Everything else is created via algorithms and thus doesn't need saving.
Try this by terraforming a planet with some of the creative tools, like the chocolate canyons. Then leave the system, do some other business and come back. The planet is in it's default state.
I guess every planet carries a pointer and some variables for the algorithms. Also i think even the colonies are created with these.
Plus you don't really have a see/can't see feature in that game. You can see things, which you can actually see, no FoW is needed.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 32

RE: Issues with PRIVATE ships - 4/15/2010 11:27:59 AM

Fishman

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cheet4h

The planets in that game aren't really saved, if not colonized. And even then they are created again via algorithms.

See? Smart.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cheet4h

Uncolonized planets are not saved. If i remember right, only their state of ecological development, the races and the sort of spice is saved. Everything else is created via algorithms and thus doesn't need saving.

Precisely: And that's still more information than a DW planet even *HAS*, so there shouldn't be these problems.

(in reply to Cheet4h)

Post #: 33

RE: Issues with PRIVATE ships - 4/15/2010 12:53:01 PM

Joram

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranbir
Surely the private owner should be capable of repairing it himself at a space station?(if they are capable of getting a ship built without you having to sign off) The state controller need not be informed

If the ship can move (i.e. hyperdrive and engines undamaged) then they will automatically repair themselves. But when they are immobile then currently they need to be repaired by a construction ship

Absolutely but it requires a state ship to do it. Other than scrapping it, a private repair ship could also resolve the issue. I just don't really want to hear too much on private ship issues when they are flying half way around the galaxy doing god knows what. About the only thing I want to hear out of them is when they are being attacked.

(in reply to elliotg)

Post #: 34

RE: Issues with PRIVATE ships - 4/15/2010 7:23:29 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline

triple A in space :P
it actually makes sense for there to be private repair ships.

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Post #: 35

RE: Issues with PRIVATE ships - 4/15/2010 9:15:49 PM

ceyan

Posts: 168
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Does, actually. SEV ships also can be automated and given missions. In fact, missions for SEV ships can be queued with far more elaborateness than DW ships, which frankly, have rather short attention spans.

I'm willing to concede you may have more overall knowledge of the subject than I do, but how can anyone take you seriously when some of your statements are so off the wall? I quoted this one because its the most obvious example. SEV ships do have automation, but its only tracked ONCE per turn. At the start (or end, however it works in SEV) and when you automated one of your own ships, it does the calculations and makes the decision. Then, presumably, once per turn it will also check the mission conditions and validity. How often do you do a turn? I'm assuming Distant Worlds doesn't recalculate every single second, but it sure as hell does it far faster than I can do a single turn in SEV.

quote:

Tracking "empty space" never happens in ANY game. "Empty space" is just that: Void. Space of any form is practically never tracked. Objects are tracked, and objects, whether they move according to a fixed grid of wormholes and jump points, or whether their coordinates are arbitrarily, still have coordinates, and those coordinates consume roughly the same amount of memory regardless of the mode by which they move.

I felt another example was needed, so I quoted this one. So "empty space" doesn't have to be tracked to see if a ship is able to detect whats inside it? I must be playing a different game, because in my version of Distant Worlds I can't see jack squat if I haven't explored it and also have a ship in range to detect whats there.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 36

RE: Issues with PRIVATE ships - 4/15/2010 9:40:48 PM

Malevolence

Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/3/2010
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I'm sorry if anything I added to the thread started a debate about the game's design architecture. My comments were meant in the general sense, not specific. I simply meant that any calculations you add to game's routine is going to create more work for the processor(s). That could be a simple square root calculation to find distance, but then executed 3,000 times as every object checks every other object in an area for collisions. Then perform that check every 30 milliseconds. I think DW already does those sorts of things... and since the game belongs to the designers it's up to them how to handle and model it.

quote:

ORIGINAL:� ceyan
So "empty space" doesn't have to be tracked to see if a ship is able to detect whats inside it?� I must be playing a different game, because in my version of Distant Worlds I can't see jack squat if I haven't explored it and also have a ship in range to detect whats there.

I would be surprised if those issues weren't handled by a distance formula. I'll spare you the details about a cartesian coordinate system. Check out euclidean distance. I'm sure you get the idea.

tl;dr version: I think we should leave the how part up to CodeForce and concentrate on the what and why.

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 4/15/2010 9:44:14 PM >

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Post #: 37

RE: Issues with PRIVATE ships - 4/16/2010 1:39:13 AM

Fishman

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ceyan

SEV ships do have automation, but its only tracked ONCE per turn. At the start (or end, however it works in SEV) and when you automated one of your own ships, it does the calculations and makes the decision. Then, presumably, once per turn it will also check the mission conditions and validity. How often do you do a turn? I'm assuming Distant Worlds doesn't recalculate every single second, but it sure as hell does it far faster than I can do a single turn in SEV.

CPU cost, not RAM cost. This recalculation isn't using more RAM no matter how much it happens unless something leaks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ceyan

I felt another example was needed, so I quoted this one. So "empty space" doesn't have to be tracked to see if a ship is able to detect whats inside it? I must be playing a different game, because in my version of Distant Worlds I can't see jack squat if I haven't explored it and also have a ship in range to detect whats there.

No. "Empty space" isn't even a memory object. Empty space is the absence of a memory object. Objects see other objects in object-to-object interactions, empty space sees nothing, and objects do not see empty space. Painting visibility circles on empty space is a matter of iterating through all the available objects and painting their visibility circles. In fact, it is quite clear this is what happens, because the circles are painted over each other, resulting in very opaque areas where lots of circles overlap.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

I'm sorry if anything I added to the thread started a debate about the game's design architecture. My comments were meant in the general sense, not specific. I simply meant that any calculations you add to game's routine is going to create more work for the processor(s). That could be a simple square root calculation to find distance, but then executed 3,000 times as every object checks every other object in an area for collisions.

Ugh, no, doing a distance check, you skip the squarerooting and just use distance-squared. Square-root calculation is slow, simple multiplication is dirt cheap. Attempting to executing a million square roots a second is going to sink your computer. Doing a million simple integer arithmetic tests costs practically nothing, and you can cut it down further by culling collision sets that were absolutely not going to happen.

< Message edited by Fishman -- 4/16/2010 1:42:53 AM >

(in reply to Malevolence)

Post #: 38

RE: Issues with PRIVATE ships - 4/16/2010 2:02:49 AM

Malevolence

Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/3/2010
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Yes, I know that. Which is why I used square root as an example. As I said Fishman-- please focus on this statement-- the how of calculating distance doesn't matter to us... or what sparse arrays are used or what sorting algorithms are used. If you can make a really cool 4X game, then do it. I'll buy a copy. I doubt any of us, however, are going to get any traction here trying to change the basic architecture of a game that is already made.

It was my fault for bringing up the comment about the "ticks" in the first place. Sorry.

Lots of people want carriers and fighters... we can simply say, it would be great to have carriers and fighters. CodeForce can determine if that fits into their fps and if/how to add it.

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 4/16/2010 2:11:32 AM >

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*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 39