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Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 1:29:11 PM

jscott991

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The economic changes are probably here to stay, so while bugs might be ironed out in 1.04, the core of the patch, I think, is set.

With that being said and acknowledging that I'm an inexperienced player, I find the game a touch too challenging at the moment and need to know more about how I'm supposed to be making money. I started 3 1.04 games last night and each one kind of "crapped out"; I was bankrupt within 5 years.

So, how do you make money? How much micromanaging is really necessary? (Hopefully, not much. I would hate for 1.04 to have changed the economic system to make it harder for micromanagers and now it requires the micromanaging that the game touts is unnecessary.)

My strategy in 1.03 (and so far in 1.04) is to colonize pretty much every world I find, with particular attention to alien populations (which I set to rare). I try to focus my construction ships on resources with either empire or galactic priority, but I'm not all that familiar with how resources actually relate to making money. My construction ships are on auto. My ship construction is on suggest. I usually deny the suggestions. My fleet is quite small; construction ships actually take up far more maintenance than anything else.

I've noticed my resort and shipyard income fluctuates wildly. I assume that's intentional. My taxes are set to auto, and actually stay pretty steady.

I turn pirates off and monsters to the lowest setting. I play with few alien empires and put them all normal or distant.

So, what am I doing wrong? How do you set up a successful economy in the beginning of the game?

Post #: 1

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 1:35:30 PM

Hyfrydle

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One thing that I find really important in the early game is to be careful what planets I colonise. Aim for good size high value to start with and also keep an eye on any resources that your people demand. With the new patch it's easy to get into the red so take the time to improve your base colonies with spaceports etc which will increase the civilian trade. I now have a 38 planet empire and just over 150,000 creds with an income of +50,000 but I did go through some tough times. Also turn off troop automation as this can become fairly expensive.

Hope this helps.

(in reply to jscott991)

Post #: 2

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 2:37:41 PM

EisenHammer

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Sometimes your construction ships will build too many mining bases that you don't really need at the time, so you may have to go thru and scrap some of them to save some money.

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Post #: 3

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 2:41:51 PM

Kriegsspieler

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

Sometimes your construction ships will build too many mining bases that you don't really need at the time, so you may have to go thru and scrap some of them to save some money.

Ho do you know whether a particular mining base is profitable or not? Is there information on this somewhere, or do you have to infer it from the demand for and prices of the resources it collects?

(in reply to EisenHammer)

Post #: 4

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 2:56:17 PM

BigWolfChris

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Tbh, I find it better to manually build your own bases in the beginning
Then, only build them to mine resources that you actually have a demand for
Other than that, the only other type of mining base to build are gas mining stations on the edge of you territory, just to ensure ships don't have to far to go to refuel as your infrastructure is building up

Using this tactic, I rarely have more than 4 constructors built

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Post #: 5

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 3:06:46 PM

SiempreCiego

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yeah had the same situation.

It is very easy to go into the red now. What I found to be quite effective. is the following:
Cycle through expansion and consolidation phases.
When there is demand for resources, build only 1 mining base to cover its production. If you need more afterwards, you can build more.
If the resources demanded are already on one of the worlds your going to colonise, don't go building mining stations in other places.
The more assets you have spread around the more military ships you will need to defend it all.
Pirate/monsters must be eterminated! your private vessels will not mine resources and will not trade goods if they repeatedly have to retreat from a threat.
Free trade agreements and resort bases help boost your income alot.

(in reply to jscott991)

Post #: 6

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 3:06:49 PM

Spacecadet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kriegsspieler

quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

Sometimes your construction ships will build too many mining bases that you don't really need at the time, so you may have to go thru and scrap some of them to save some money.

Ho do you know whether a particular mining base is profitable or not? Is there information on this somewhere, or do you have to infer it from the demand for and prices of the resources it collects?

I second this (Mine income).
I'll also add, how do you tell how much a Space Port is making?

Also, isn't the maintenance for Mines paid for by the Private sector?
Shouldn't really be an issue as long as you don't overload them if that is the case.

I'm a bit worried about the Economic changes they've made.

1. It sounds like they made it harder to make money.
2. I'm getting the impression that things are more expensive to buy and maintain.
3. The AI has changed so that they're less likely to trade, or that it will cost more.
4. As your empire grows, more income will be lost to corruption.

Almost sounds like we got a quadruple whammy to the Economy from the trickle down effect - harder to make money, harder to trade, cost more to trade/buy, when you do buy (Colony for example) corruption/maintenance goes up.

Maybe I'm missing something, but for now I'm sitting on the fence as far as 1.04 goes.

(in reply to Kriegsspieler)

Post #: 7

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 3:10:36 PM

Kriegsspieler

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Well, just speaking for myself, I like these changes a lot. You actually have to pay attention to the kinds of stations you build, which planets you colonize, and so forth. It make sthe game far more challenging.

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Post #: 8

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 3:18:57 PM

EisenHammer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

Sometimes your construction ships will build too many mining bases that you don't really need at the time, so you may have to go thru and scrap some of them to save some money.

Opps sorry... you can't really scrap mining bases as they are privately owned.

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Post #: 9

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 3:24:28 PM

jscott991

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kriegsspieler

Well, just speaking for myself, I like these changes a lot. You actually have to pay attention to the kinds of stations you build, which planets you colonize, and so forth. It make sthe game far more challenging.

But isn't this the kind of micromanagement we were supposed to be spared from?

It bothers me that the problem might be construction ships on auto are building too many mines and that mines aren't profitable.

It seems to me that I was supposed to be able to play this game without micromanaging my construction ships.

I can try, but I'm a little perturbed that the path to making money requires so much more effort.

Edit: Also, as others have pointed out, how can you tell what exactly is a profitable mine? How can you differentiate between a poor world to colonize and a good one (beyond the size, environment)? These things are not that clear.

< Message edited by jscott991 -- 4/21/2010 3:28:37 PM >

(in reply to Kriegsspieler)

Post #: 10

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 3:34:57 PM

Kriegsspieler

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991
But isn't this the kind of micromanagement we were supposed to be spared from?

It bothers me that the problem might be construction ships on auto are building too many mines and that mines aren't profitable.

It seems to me that I was supposed to be able to play this game without micromanaging my construction ships.

I can try, but I'm a little perturbed that the path to making money requires so much more effort.

Edit: Also, as others have pointed out, how can you tell what exactly is a profitable mine? How can you differentiate between a poor world to colonize and a good one (beyond the size, environment)? These things are not that clear.

I'm ok with there being a two-step solution to economic balancing. First, get the balance where you want it. Second, teach the a.i. to behave accordingly.

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Post #: 11

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 3:40:52 PM

jscott991

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kriegsspieler
I'm ok with there being a two-step solution to economic balancing. First, get the balance where you want it. Second, teach the a.i. to behave accordingly.

That kind of a solution, though, is going to make a mockery of how the game is being marketed (the automation feature) and upset quite a few people who pick the game up and try to play over these first few weeks.

This reminds me of how several recent MMOs were developed. Released the game, hammer it with "nerfs", then try to tweak the nerfs. Unfortunately, most players left during the nerfing phase.

In my opinion, the information necessary to judge the new economy is not presented elegantly enough (or at all) to allow people to easily micromanage their economy. Therefore severe reductions in player income through "rebalancing" should only occur when you have the automation AI capable of adapting to it.

Either present the information to let me micromanage or have an effective automation. I don't see that the game is really workable in some kind of mushy middle between the two.

(in reply to Kriegsspieler)

Post #: 12

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 4:10:13 PM

Kriegsspieler

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991
That kind of a solution, though, is going to make a mockery of how the game is being marketed (the automation feature) and upset quite a few people who pick the game up and try to play over these first few weeks.

This reminds me of how several recent MMOs were developed. Released the game, hammer it with "nerfs", then try to tweak the nerfs. Unfortunately, most players left during the nerfing phase.

In my opinion, the information necessary to judge the new economy is not presented elegantly enough (or at all) to allow people to easily micromanage their economy. Therefore severe reductions in player income through "rebalancing" should only occur when you have the automation AI capable of adapting to it.

Either present the information to let me micromanage or have an effective automation. I don't see that the game is really workable in some kind of mushy middle between the two.

It depends on how impatient players are to have everything in the game be perfect right away, doesn't it? I see all of these games as works in progress. As long as automation and avoidance of micromanagement are improved as the process of patching nears completion, I'll be happy.

(in reply to jscott991)

Post #: 13

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 4:15:42 PM

Spacecadet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kriegsspieler
I'm ok with there being a two-step solution to economic balancing. First, get the balance where you want it. Second, teach the a.i. to behave accordingly.

That kind of a solution, though, is going to make a mockery of how the game is being marketed (the automation feature) and upset quite a few people who pick the game up and try to play over these first few weeks.

This reminds me of how several recent MMOs were developed. Released the game, hammer it with "nerfs", then try to tweak the nerfs. Unfortunately, most players left during the nerfing phase.

In my opinion, the information necessary to judge the new economy is not presented elegantly enough (or at all) to allow people to easily micromanage their economy. Therefore severe reductions in player income through "rebalancing" should only occur when you have the automation AI capable of adapting to it.

Either present the information to let me micromanage or have an effective automation. I don't see that the game is really workable in some kind of mushy middle between the two.

Yeah, I definitely agree we need a lot more information about the Economy if we're going to need to tweak it.

1. How much is this Space Port making vs. how much it cost?
2. How much does this Troop Unit cost - individual, not all the troops?
3. How much is this Mine making or costing?
4. How about a more detailed breakout of the Private sector expenses and costs?

I realize we can't directly control the Private sector, but we can impact it indirectly to a degree, the additional info breakout would definitely help.

(in reply to jscott991)

Post #: 14

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 4:46:42 PM

Erik Rutins

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From: Vermont, USA
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There's one incorrect assumption in this thread, which is that the economic balance is set in stone now. Not at all. We've done our first pass and done some testing, but we cannot possibly be sure we have it all right. I would also note that the AI _can_ handle the economy.

What we need most of all from you right now is some feedback to help us make any further adjustments. Just play the game as you normally would, but if you can, please post your results too while you're playing.

What would be helpful is to know what race you are playing, what government type and in general what galaxy settings and how much you have automated. Then give us an idea of how things are running for you in the early game, mid game and late game. Constantly in the red? Making money hand over fist? It would help us a lot to get this kind of information.

Economic performance can vary a lot based on some of the factors I mention above, so we really need to know those to evaluate any feedback.

For example, here's my latest test:

I tested with a fully automated Human Republic in a 700 Star Galaxy. I made occasional minor manual interventions to prioritize colonization or encourage some diplomatic treaties, but 95% of the decisions were made by the automated AI. Aggressiveness set to Unstable, Research set to Very Slow, other settings at defaults. In the early game, I had a good cash flow, around +10k per year. In the mid game, I varied between dipping into the red (though never by much) and getting back into the black (though never by much). In the late game, I had a consistent positive cash flow, though I was not wealthy by any stretch. I was able to support three fleets and a network of space ports.

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 5:19:31 PM

jscott991

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I did not mean to imply that nothing would be done to address the economy in the future; only that it seemed that prior to my purchasing the game, it had been decided to reduce player revenues and that it seemed unlikely that a return to 1.03's economic situation would occur. And after playing some games on 1.03 and then playing on 1.04, I definitely felt nerfed.

My experience does not mirror your's at all, but I don't make it to the mid-game, because I go red in the early game and abandon it.

Three tests, with the following settings:

Human monarchy, 1000 star galaxy, research to normal, only 4 AI players all set to average or distant (I never encountered any), aggressiveness to normal, alien populations rare, no independents rising to empires, homeworld to agreeable, and everything else to default.

In terms of automation, ship construction was set to suggest, agents were taken off automatic, colonization was set to suggest, ship design automation was turned off, and everything else was set to automation.

My empire hits the red within 5-6 years. I run out of cash by that time as well. Most of my costs are associated with construction ships. I declined almost all military ship construction and I stopped building construction ships when I had 4-5 each time. I generally colonized every planet that I could, but I allowed the AI to handle mine construction, with the occasional suggestion (no more than 2-3 in any one game) to build a mine near an empire or galactic prioritized resource.

So again, I think my economy is largely automated. I'm not doing anything other than responding to suggestions (usually in the negative for things that would increase maintenance), and I'm going bankrupt.

I don't think the automate AI has adjusted to the new economic balancing.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 16

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 5:26:48 PM

TheSAguy

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I like the Economy more challenging. It�s actually fun when you fail every now and then so that the next time you play you always have to tweak your approach.
I would recommend possibly adding in difficulty settings, where certain economic settings can be adjusted for the player who does not want to micro manage the perfect economy.
Love the progress/improvements with the game!

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 17

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 5:30:50 PM

jscott991

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There's just something off here.

Is the game supposed to be micromanaged or not? Were people finding it easy to make oodles of money in 1.03 by turning off the automate and managing their own economy and now we have a patch (1.04) that makes that harder, and, thus, makes it harder to survive without micromanaging?

This game really needs to decide what it is. Obviously an intelligent human player controlling lots of details is going to outperform the AI. If the economy is balanced to present a challenge to that type of player, then the automation features in the game shouldn't be pushed forward as a selling point.

(in reply to TheSAguy)

Post #: 18

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 5:33:10 PM

Tacit_Exit

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Patch:1.04 Beta (1st Release)
Race:Dhayut, Democracy
Galaxy Settings:Ring, start at rim, distant opponents(4), 100 stars, starting expansion, all opponents distant, few space creatures, no pirates, peaceful, very slow research, all home systems excellent, all sizes starting, all tech levels basic.
Automation:Only Tax and Design

Built 9 extra exploration ships at start and used expansion planner to mass colonise. Auto 2 initial Constructors with occasional assigning resource targets from planner, about halfway thru expansion built 8 more constructors. Built 4 anti space creature destroyers once torpedo tech was rushed. Gained ocean planet colony ability early then volcanic colonisation later (Only really used to claim planets in systems already mine).

Once all colonisation was finished I built 4 new large space ports (default design) equally spread thru my empire, then a few more, then one per system, then one per planet.

2 FTA and 2 mutual defense with opposing empires. A fair wad of cash spent in large gifts to get these (maybe 10 mill).

Maybe the settings were too biased to the Dhayut rapidid expansion but this was way too easy. I guess I hadn't built troops at any planets yet so not sure how much that would have dented my massive income (btw is there an easy way to drop 10 troops per planet on 116 planets :p).

Sure I had only 10 constructors and 4 military ships but I was sure building large starbases at all planets, given many of them are crappy/undeveloped/both, would have put me in the red.

Save is uploading: Tacit_Exit April 22 too much money.dwg

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Tacit_Exit -- 4/21/2010 6:04:08 PM >

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Post #: 19

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 5:40:38 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
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From: Vermont, USA
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Tacit Exit,

What government were you using? Could you upload a save file for us to review?

Regards,

- Erik

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Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Tacit_Exit)

Post #: 20

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 5:42:49 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991
I did not mean to imply that nothing would be done to address the economy in the future; only that it seemed that prior to my purchasing the game, it had been decided to reduce player revenues and that it seemed unlikely that a return to 1.03's economic situation would occur. And after playing some games on 1.03 and then playing on 1.04, I definitely felt nerfed.

The economy in 1.0.4 is much more like the pre-release economy before the economy "broke" and then was "fixed" to the point that it became extremely easy to make money.

quote:

My experience does not mirror your's at all, but I don't make it to the mid-game, because I go red in the early game and abandon it.
Three tests, with the following settings:
Human monarchy, 1000 star galaxy, research to normal, only 4 AI players all set to average or distant (I never encountered any), aggressiveness to normal, alien populations rare, no independents rising to empires, homeworld to agreeable, and everything else to default.
In terms of automation, ship construction was set to suggest, agents were taken off automatic, colonization was set to suggest, ship design automation was turned off, and everything else was set to automation.
My empire hits the red within 5-6 years. I run out of cash by that time as well. Most of my costs are associated with construction ships. I declined almost all military ship construction and I stopped building construction ships when I had 4-5 each time. I generally colonized every planet that I could, but I allowed the AI to handle mine construction, with the occasional suggestion (no more than 2-3 in any one game) to build a mine near an empire or galactic prioritized resource.

Thank you for the feedback on this.

How much in the red were you? If you abandon the game when you go red, you may be making a mistake and not giving your economy time to grow and become more profitable.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to jscott991)

Post #: 21

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 5:44:35 PM

ASHBERY76

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Looking at that screenshot tells me the game needs more economy nerfing.The economy in 1.3 was broken because of the ridiculous amounts of money in the game.It was like using cheats in EU3 to give you 1000 ducats every month.

This is ment to be a strategy game,so bloody use your head.

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Post #: 22

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 5:46:16 PM

jscott991

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Well, when you run out of cash (10k or more in the red) and your earnings are red as well (this fluctuates wildly, but I don't quit until it stays at least 10k in the red and my cash is gone), there isn't much to do except watch time pass and pray. A restart seemed the best strategy at each point when a few months failed to reverse the negative cash flow and my lack of cash prevented me from building anything.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

Looking at that screenshot tells me the game needs more economy nerfing.The economy in 1.3 was broken because of the ridiculous amounts of money in the game.It was like using cheats in EU3 to give you 1000 ducats every month.

This is ment to be a strategy game,so bloody use your head.

If it's meant to be micromanaged and its going to be balanced on the assumption that players who micromanage need more of a challenge, then it bloody well better not sell its automation as a major feature.

< Message edited by jscott991 -- 4/21/2010 5:47:14 PM >

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Post #: 23

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 5:55:35 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
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From: Vermont, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991
Well, when you run out of cash (10k or more in the red) and your earnings are red as well (this fluctuates wildly, but I don't quit until it stays at least 10k in the red and my cash is gone), there isn't much to do except watch time pass and pray. A restart seemed the best strategy at each point when a few months failed to reverse the negative cash flow and my lack of cash prevented me from building anything.

10k in the red is nothing, to be honest. You can recover from that quite easily. This is not to say that I know that it will work in your specific case, but I've had economies go much further in the red and recover without an issue as long as I was patient about waiting for new colonies to develop. It seems like you're hitting the same problem some players had with the "broken" economy in 1.00 wherein you never really get past the early to middle game "hump". Once you have more developed colonies, your economy should start working much better.

quote:

If it's meant to be micromanaged and its going to be balanced on the assumption that players who micromanage need more of a challenge, then it bloody well better not sell its automation as a major feature.

Obviously, the game is intended to work both with micromanagement and with automation, our goal is to balance it so that you can mix and match the two to any degree. Micromanagement will almost always get the best possible results in any game like this, but the goal is not to nerf micromanagement and in the process break automation.

"Nerfing" is not the goal here in general, with the connotations that has in gaming. We are trying to rebalance the economy back to where we had it for most of pre-release. If you started with 1.0.3, you need to be aware that 1.0.1 through 1.0.3 was a bit of a "blip" for us, we've been testing this for two years with a more challenging economy overall than was in 1.0.1 through 1.0.3.

The pendulum will probably oscillate a bit more before we get everything rebalanced fully and this is not something we intended to have to do post-release, but now that we're here the more feedback we get, the sooner we can get this fine-tuned.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to jscott991)

Post #: 24

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 6:06:05 PM

Tacit_Exit

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Added Democracy and save name to my post, 40% uploaded as I post this.

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Post #: 25

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 6:06:22 PM

jscott991

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It strikes me that the bulk of your feedback is coming from micromanaging players.

Any game that listens to players who want more of a challenge always risks alienating those that do not. I've had this problem with every Matrix game I've purchased (which is, in fact, why I can't seem to stay interested in them for very long). That's my own fault for repeatedly sticking my hand in the flame seeking a different result, but it would be nice if a game lauded in reviews for its automation doesn't make using that automation impossible as it tries to cater to those who want more of a "challenge."

As I've said in this thread repeatedly, if you want us to micromanage, tell us how; make the information necessary to evaluate planets and mines more accessible (or accessible at all); and simply be clear about the direction the game is heading.

In my opinion, you won't be able to have it both ways. If you make the automation AI marginally profitable, you will make it too easy for micromanagers to be wildly profitable. But if you can strike that balance, you will have a wonderful game.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 26

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 6:06:35 PM

nammafia

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I agree that the AI (Human in 700 star galaxy in my case) can handle economy very well because whenever I am in the red I automate everything and watch the money slowly coming back up. I am usually in the red when I have colonized four to five planets. I am still trying to figure out how to avoid getting into the red, manually.

However, it would be easier for players to have economic info on money making and money burning activities.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 27

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 6:10:49 PM

ASHBERY76

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

It strikes me that the bulk of your feedback is coming from micromanaging players.

Who said you need to micromanage the economy? It is called strategy.

_____________________________

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Post #: 28

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 6:14:39 PM

Druthlen

Posts: 43
Joined: 4/4/2010
Status: offline

Ok well I played for 1 yr in patch 1.04 took a few games but I modded my strat. Build 1 exploration ship and 2 destroyers put all destroyers into fleet. Send the one escort and frigate to respond to pirates as distractions and send fleet of 3 destoryers to actually kill pirate. Manually assign constructor ships to only build on absolutely needed resources and all luxury resources I can find. 1 Yr out and all luxury resources are taken by me in area. I am +30k per income and a huge number of indepent ships are visiting my spaceports buying luxury. Seems luxury is where the cash is at......

(in reply to ASHBERY76)

Post #: 29

RE: Making Money in 1.04 - 4/21/2010 6:28:46 PM

Druthlen

Posts: 43
Joined: 4/4/2010
Status: offline

Oh another thing is I avoid colonizing independent worlds they offer to much in the terms of trading opportunites. More so then they would ever pay in taxes....

Im also very thoughtful to the planets I colonize. To many new colonys is a huge drain on the luxury resources I got and it can kill my economy.

< Message edited by Druthlen -- 4/21/2010 6:36:40 PM >

(in reply to Druthlen)

Post #: 30