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Brother against Brother - 4/21/2010 1:34:50 PM   
sterckxe


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Hi,

Not to rain on your parade, but isn't a pc wargame called Brother Against Brother which is *NOT* a pc adaptation of the rather popular ACW tabletop ruleset of the same name a tad confusing ?

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
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RE: Brother against Brother - 4/22/2010 7:27:25 AM   
JudgeDredd


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Don't know about that Eddy as I'm unaware of the board game - but a new ACW title - at regiment level - from one of my favourite companies? What could possibly go wrong!?

Can't wait.

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RE: Brother against Brother - 4/22/2010 8:23:39 AM   
sterckxe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
Don't know about that Eddy as I'm unaware of the board game


Not to go on a rant, but one of the things which is wrong with wargaming these days is that most gamers in one of the 3 genres (pc, tabletop, board) haven’t got a clue, not even an inkling of what’s happening over the hedge, no make that 20 feet concrete wall, in the realm of their fellow wargamers.

Brother against Brother is not a boardgame, it’s a very, very popular tabletop ruleset to be played with miniatures.

To give you the most striking example of why I think there’s a solid wall between the sub-genres of wargaming : mention Battlefront in here and *everyone* on this forum will immediately know I’m talking about the pc wargame company which made Combat Mission etc. But if I were to mention the Battlefront company on a miniature forum *everyone* would nod as well, as it’s one of the biggest miniature manufacturers around and producers of the immensely popular Flames of War WWII system.

That’s right, there are 2 *identically named* companies in the wargame world, both are major players, and most wargamers are totally unaware of this.

The reason I think this is bonkers is because all sub-genres could use a healthy dose of cross-pollination : it’s taken decades for tabletop wargamers to realize that there’s something to be said for using hexes to quickly regulate movement and combat instead of mucking about with tape measurers and now Callistra terrain and Hotz mats are making a killing selling that stuff to tabletop gamers. Conversely, half the pc wargamers released these days are concept-wise a throwback to boardgame designs of the seventies whereas they should take a good look at modern concepts like cards, constant player interaction and emphasis on command & control.

End of rant.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx


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RE: Brother against Brother - 4/22/2010 9:23:34 AM   
JudgeDredd


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Eddy - I've yet to meet anyone who rants as succinctly as you and with such finesse!

But I'm still excited about it

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RE: Brother against Brother - 4/22/2010 9:39:29 AM   
Gil R.


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Our original title was going to be "Sid Meier's 1st Bull Run/Wilson's Creek/Mill Springs/Williamsburg," but we feared it might cause confusion.

With the title "Brother against Brother," though, I doubt there'll be much confusion, for the simple reason that, as you note, different types of wargamers are oblivious to what the others are playing.

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RE: Brother against Brother - 4/22/2010 9:41:31 AM   
sterckxe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
Eddy - I've yet to meet anyone who rants as succinctly as you and with such finesse!


It get lots of practice :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
But I'm still excited about it


Me too, and just to practice some more : WE WANT SCREENSHOTS ! :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

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RE: Brother against Brother - 4/22/2010 9:51:55 AM   
Gil R.


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Screenshots are still a few weeks away. Just use your imaginations!


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RE: Brother against Brother - 4/23/2010 9:33:56 PM   
berto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

Conversely, half the pc wargamers released these days are concept-wise a throwback to boardgame designs of the seventies whereas they should take a good look at modern concepts like cards, constant player interaction and emphasis on command & control.


If BAB:DS incorporates those elements, if the game reflects the randomness and confusion of battle in all its aspects--I'm interested. If not, I'm not.

God-like omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence and total control--I hate that in war games, especially tactical ones.

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RE: Brother against Brother - 4/23/2010 9:59:31 PM   
tevans6220

 

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Hey Eddy

There's also an ACW boardgame called Brother against Brother made by Fresno Games. It's a strategic wargame covering the whole war the same as VG's Civil War and Decision Games WBTS. Just thought you'd like to know.

Small Correction: Not Fresno Games but Fresno Gaming Association or FGA.

< Message edited by tevans6220 -- 4/23/2010 10:05:05 PM >

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RE: Brother against Brother - 4/24/2010 6:27:46 PM   
Gil R.


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quote:

If BAB:DS incorporates those elements, if the game reflects the randomness and confusion of battle in all its aspects--I'm interested. If not, I'm not.

God-like omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence and total control--I hate that in war games, especially tactical ones.


Berto,
Our c&c rules are certainly intended to put such limitations on the player, and are inspired in part by the fact that so many battles hinged on the inabilities of commanders to do anything but piecemeal assaults, and the difficulties in communicating during battle. I'll discuss our c&c system in the near future, once we're done making changes to it.

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RE: Brother against Brother - 4/24/2010 8:22:14 PM   
wodin


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I liked the look of the battles (screenshots of an AAR) of FoF...hope they don't loose their character if they look totally different.

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RE: Brother against Brother - 4/24/2010 8:46:19 PM   
berto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

quote:

If BAB:DS incorporates those elements, if the game reflects the randomness and confusion of battle in all its aspects--I'm interested. If not, I'm not.

God-like omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence and total control--I hate that in war games, especially tactical ones.


Berto,
Our c&c rules are certainly intended to put such limitations on the player, and are inspired in part by the fact that so many battles hinged on the inabilities of commanders to do anything but piecemeal assaults, and the difficulties in communicating during battle. I'll discuss our c&c system in the near future, once we're done making changes to it.


That's great to hear. I love the HPS ACW games, but the chess-like near-total control in them aggravates. Looking forward to see what you do in this regard.

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RE: Brother against Brother - 4/25/2010 5:52:22 AM   
Gil R.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I liked the look of the battles (screenshots of an AAR) of FoF...hope they don't loose their character if they look totally different.



The maps will look quite different, being drawn on top of actual topographical maps of the site, but we're reusing the unit sprites. (Those are few months of work, and look pretty darn good, so no need to redo them. Same goes for firing effects.)

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RE: Brother against Brother - 4/26/2010 7:29:58 AM   
Krec


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hmm,  this is starting to sound really tasty.  maybe like a civil war generals 2 updated.  sounds really good.  turn base of course.   i need to get to work so i can buy more games from you guys.

< Message edited by Krec -- 4/26/2010 7:30:27 AM >


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RE: Brother against Brother - 4/26/2010 7:49:21 AM   
Gil R.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Krec

hmm,  this is starting to sound really tasty.  maybe like a civil war generals 2 updated.  sounds really good.  turn base of course.   i need to get to work so i can buy more games from you guys.



Yes. Get to work!

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RE: Brother against Brother - 4/26/2010 8:09:09 AM   
berto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

Our c&c rules are certainly intended to put such limitations on the player, and are inspired in part by the fact that so many battles hinged on the inabilities of commanders to do anything but piecemeal assaults, and the difficulties in communicating during battle. I'll discuss our c&c system in the near future, once we're done making changes to it.


Will the game also incorporate things like:

  • variable movement rates; occasional; reflecting not just c&c issues, but unexpected events (e.g., bad or non-existent maps, getting lost, mud and other unusually bad terrain, wagon breakdowns, traffic jams, stubborn mules blocking the roadway!, etc.)
  • friendly fire (not at all a rare occurrence in ACW battles)
  • fire, especially long-range artillery fire, sometimes straying away from intended targets
  • random walks; very infrequent; reflecting subordinate commanders having a mind of their own (think Sickles at Gettysburg), misinterpreting orders (think Wood at Chickamauga), etc.
  • routing units effectively melting away (think entire Union regiments at Shiloh)

And other stuff.

Sh*t happens in battle. A realistic portrayal would show that.

< Message edited by berto -- 4/26/2010 8:28:21 AM >


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RE: Brother against Brother - 4/26/2010 9:14:05 AM   
Gil R.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

Will the game also incorporate things like:

  • variable movement rates; occasional; reflecting not just c&c issues, but unexpected events (e.g., bad or non-existent maps, getting lost, mud and other unusually bad terrain, wagon breakdowns, traffic jams, stubborn mules blocking the roadway!, etc.)

    Some of that, terrain in particular. We'll also have artillery having a chance of getting stuck in mud. Some of what you describe would count as "chrome," and we plan to add bits and pieces of that to BAB over time, putting new stuff in each release and then retrofitting it to the earlier releases via patch. So something like wagon breakdowns, for example, might not make it into the original release, but may well be added later.

  • friendly fire (not at all a rare occurrence in ACW battles)

    We've discussed this and have ideas for how to implement it, but again it's chrome. So we're unlikely to add it pre-release.

  • fire, especially long-range artillery fire, sometimes straying away from intended targets

    If you mean artillery hitting units in other hexes then no, we don't have that. If you mean artillery missing then that's abstractly in there as bad "dice rolls."

  • random walks; very infrequent; reflecting subordinate commanders having a mind of their own (think Sickles at Gettysburg), misinterpreting orders (think Wood at Chickamauga), etc.

    Not the way you describe it.

  • routing units effectively melting away (think entire Union regiments at Shiloh)

    If you mean completely disappearing from the map, then no. If I remember correctly, routed units head to safe spots well away from the fighting (such as woods) and have a chance to reform. I don't remember that about Shiloh, though admittedly I haven't been reading about that battle lately. I do recall reading about an Indian regiment or brigade at Pea Ridge whose men were so stunned when fired upon by artillery that they turned and ran, and I believe some ended up back in Oklahoma.

And other stuff.

Sh*t happens in battle. A realistic portrayal would show that.



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RE: Brother against Brother - 4/26/2010 9:49:52 AM   
berto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

Will the game also incorporate things like:

  • variable movement rates; occasional; reflecting not just c&c issues, but unexpected events (e.g., bad or non-existent maps, getting lost, mud and other unusually bad terrain, wagon breakdowns, traffic jams, stubborn mules blocking the roadway!, etc.)


Some of that, terrain in particular. We'll also have artillery having a chance of getting stuck in mud. Some of what you describe would count as "chrome," and we plan to add bits and pieces of that to BAB over time, putting new stuff in each release and then retrofitting it to the earlier releases via patch. So something like wagon breakdowns, for example, might not make it into the original release, but may well be added later.


I mean (occasionally) randomly variable movement rates. Of course, units will move faster on roads, slower through woods, etc. I'd just like to see a dash of unpredictability in movement rates, beyond any c&c implementation.

So, for example, on occasion, instead of a column predictably always moving (say) 12 hexes down a road, sometimes that is reduced to (say) 9 hexes--and not due to c&c issues but other issues as described.

Or movement through woods sometimes taking longer than expected (randomly slower movement rates). You often read of commanders taking wrong turns, encountering unexpected thickets or gullies, getting lost, etc.

quote:


quote:


  • fire, especially long-range artillery fire, sometimes straying away from intended targets


  • If you mean artillery hitting units in other hexes then no, we don't have that. If you mean artillery missing then that's abstractly in there as bad "dice rolls."


    I mean straying from the intended target hex and hitting units in other hexes, or straying to empty hexes and therefore having no practical effect.

    Some of this is "chrome" in the sense that it's infrequent to rare, chrome also in the sense that games traditionally don't represent this sort of unpredictability. (War games have unpredictable combat results, of course, and perhaps also routing, recovery, weather, sometimes c&c--but often that's about it.) But it's this sort of "chrome" that gives life to the game as a truly accurate historical simulation. And for me at least, adds to the fun factor, not to mention the replayability.

    Battle, like life, is full of surprises. The Army of the Cumberland spontaneously, without orders storming (and taking!) Missionary Ridge. Stuff like that was not all that atypical.

    Competitive gamers and PBEMers would loathe this randomness, so maybe you could make these optional rules.

    I won't fault you if you fail to model absolutely every aspect of historical reality down to the slightest and rarest of detail. Please just go more in that direction than your typical, traditional war game. The less predictable and deterministic like chess, the better.

    < Message edited by berto -- 4/26/2010 10:06:54 AM >


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    RE: Brother against Brother - 4/26/2010 6:45:51 PM   
    Gil R.


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    I think that movement rates aren't random, though I didn't program anything so I could be wrong. But what matters is how many movement points a unit gets, and that's influenced by a whole number of factors. So it won't always take the same amount of time to move across the same terrain.

    No, artillery doesn't hit adjacent units. My guess is that this would involve some time-intensive programming. We certainly won't have this for the original release, but we'd definitely consider it and your other ideas. WCS does have a pretty good track record of implementing suggestions from the "Wish List" threads that we start. But we can't start adding more minor features now, as that would delay release. The game right now has more than enough interesting details and rules to satisfy most customers, so it's more important to finish programming than it is to expand it.

    I won't start a "Wish List" thread until the game is out, of course, but feel free to ask such questions, since if an idea strikes us as a must-have we might still add it.

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    RE: Brother against Brother - 4/26/2010 6:56:19 PM   
    berto


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    I'll be on the lookout for the Wish List. But in the meantime, if you implement a well thought out, comprehensive, plausible c&c system--good enough for starters, that's half the realism battle right there.

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    RE: Brother against Brother - 4/26/2010 10:47:00 PM   
    wodin


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    Hmmm...I'm abit baffled here....if arty doesnt fire into any adjacent hex then how does it work? You have to mone arty onto a hex with an enemy unit on? I suppose its the same with infantry. I imagined infantry would be able to fire one or two hexes away and arty a few more if the game is tactical...


    whoops think I understand now...your saying arty won't hit any other hex than the one targeted?

    < Message edited by wodin -- 4/26/2010 10:48:29 PM >


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    RE: Brother against Brother - 4/27/2010 3:02:38 AM   
    Gil R.


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    Yes, exactly.

    A tactical game like BAB (or FOF's tactical engine) is largely based on board games, and in the ones I've played, at least, artillery doesn't fire into hexes adjacent to the target by mistake. (Of course, I haven't played them all...) It's actually a perfectly reasonable suggestion to have that happen sometimes, but since it might create some programming difficulties -- which, in turn, could lead to new bugs -- it is definitely something to consider post-release.

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    RE: Brother against Brother - 4/27/2010 4:29:20 PM   
    Hexagon


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    A little list of questions:

    -Multiplayer... well, i think that it works like in Combat Mission games, i move send the file to my enemy, he move and resolve the turn but do you have a classic system where is the player who send the file or as in FoG have a server system???

    -Another multiplayer question, if you only move the troops and is the AI who do the rest... is possible have a system that permits multicommanders games??? i want refer to have more than 1 human player in a side, game creator can assign troops to human players, i think that in "Scourge of War: Gettysburg" works.

    -I read about no editor but do you refer to no map editor but game has a scen + OOB editors (like HPS games)or no editros zero???

    -Units... well, do you have decided what is a units??? number of soldiers, number of weapons by type, ammo (if this is present can troops take enemy weapons or from friendly mates wounded or dead... like in Close combat series), fatige-morale-experience...

    -Do you think in have complete stadistics in casualties (KIA, MIA, WIA...) or only casualtie??? capture officers...


    And only add that i wait more information of your game, i find it interesting and if works fine can "travel" to other periods

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    RE: Brother against Brother - 4/27/2010 6:41:02 PM   
    Gil R.


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Hexagon

    A little list of questions:

    -Multiplayer... well, i think that it works like in Combat Mission games, i move send the file to my enemy, he move and resolve the turn but do you have a classic system where is the player who send the file or as in FoG have a server system???

    It's done by e-mailing back and forth.

    -Another multiplayer question, if you only move the troops and is the AI who do the rest... is possible have a system that permits multicommanders games??? i want refer to have more than 1 human player in a side, game creator can assign troops to human players, i think that in "Scourge of War: Gettysburg" works.

    No, we're sticking with 2-person. Multiplayer would add enormous amounts of work, and our idea has always been a straightforward two-player game. It's something we might consider in the future, since the idea obviously has its appeal. But I think we would use a new engine we've been working on for that.

    -I read about no editor but do you refer to no map editor but game has a scen + OOB editors (like HPS games)or no editros zero???

    We don't have a map-editor that's in shape to be released, and that won't change soon. OOB's can be edited using Microsoft Excel or a similar program -- the game is highly moddable.

    -Units... well, do you have decided what is a units??? number of soldiers, number of weapons by type, ammo (if this is present can troops take enemy weapons or from friendly mates wounded or dead... like in Close combat series), fatige-morale-experience...

    I'm not sure I understand the question, but I think the answer you're looking for is that units have such characteristics as strength, weapon type, fatigue level, supply level, morale, quality (= experience), and more. Check out the OOB thread for more on this.

    -Do you think in have complete stadistics in casualties (KIA, MIA, WIA...) or only casualtie??? capture officers...

    No, it's one number covering all.




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    RE: Brother against Brother - 4/27/2010 6:55:40 PM   
    Hexagon


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    Thanks for the reply. In the units question i am going to read the OOB post and talking about OOB... i know that in the game no map editor is included but i understand that if you can edit OOB you can edit scens to create alternative scenarios (for example no surprise in Wilson´s Creek or militia for the Union).

    Well, only can wait to the first screen shoots i am curious about units art (for HPS ACW games are an interesting mod).

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    RE: Brother against Brother - 4/27/2010 8:14:38 PM   
    Gil R.


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    We're using the same animated sprite graphics for our units as in "Forge of Freedom" -- those were quite good, so no reason to redo them all -- so just look at screenshots from that game and you'll see what units are like.

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    RE: Brother against Brother - 4/28/2010 7:47:43 AM   
    wodin


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    I like the look of the unit sprites in that game....good job

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    RE: Brother against Brother - 4/28/2010 9:24:36 AM   
    Hexagon


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    I see, but with the change of scale in the game (regiment level... well, battalion for me)the units art is very important (more if is the only point of view in the game, no 2D) and after see FoF combat screens see it a little poor, a single line of soldiers to represent a unit... i understand that you want use the work made but now the tactical battle is the game, not a part of the game and need more details in the art, something like this

    [image][URL=http://img217.imageshack.us/i/units.jpg/][/URL][/image]




    Oooo another question, do you think in use fixed representation of unis or adinamic representation??? i refer to a unit that have X soldiers to represent it and when suffer casualties the unit loose then, something like in "Fields of Glory" (the abandonware nap title not the anciente/medieval title)

    PD: dont understand me bad, when i like something i am very

    < Message edited by Hexagon -- 4/28/2010 9:26:52 AM >

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    RE: Brother against Brother - 5/1/2010 1:46:02 PM   
    janh

     

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    This really sounds interesting. I hope you guys will improve the FOF detailed battle engine substantially, for example give players the ability to select units in any sequence by mouse and move them, instead of the fixed sequence in FOF that was sometimes extremely annoying. I hope we will this time also see Brigade leaders, replacement leaders to be selected/determined by duty age/rank, various ammo types for arty, ability to recombine and separate regiments out of brigades, and much much more. Also the road networks and supply lines/rules ought to be more realistic, and be more important to AI. Also a "3D view" mode of the battlefield would be nice.

    I guess this is most exciting to me, because if you guys can make a new, much improved "battle engine", then all that is missing for a new FOF2 is a strategic map with much smaller provinces (i.e. counties, or even smaller) and a smarter strategic AI (that doesn't immediately make Grant head of the AoTP, and withdraw all forces from the West). It would be awesome if you guys would one day come out with a dual set of games: FOF2, that covers the strategic and economic level, and that could interface to any of your BAB engines. You'd earn twice, and players could choose to focus on strategic level and instance combat, or fighting things out with plentiful detail and realism. I hope that is something that also came to your mind...

    < Message edited by janh -- 5/1/2010 1:58:07 PM >

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    RE: Brother against Brother - 5/1/2010 5:59:35 PM   
    Gil R.


    Posts: 10821
    Joined: 4/1/2005
    Status: offline
    Hexagon,
    Such graphics changes, even though I can see the argument for them, would delay release of this game and at least two others we're working on by six months, since producing those sprites is VERY time-intensive.

    janh,
    Yes, you now move units the way you suggest. Some of the other changes you describe might be in future releases, but not this one -- the engine will be built up over time, based in part on what customers most want to see.

    What you describe with a FOF2 and BAB would be difficult to pull off, but we do have some ideas for a FOF2.

    _____________________________

    Michael Jordan plays ball. Charles Manson kills people. I torment eager potential customers by not sharing screenshots of "Brother Against Brother." Everyone has a talent.

    (in reply to janh)
    Post #: 30
    Page:   [1]
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