Allied China Tactics? No DICE :)

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Allied China Tactics? No DICE :)

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> Allied China Tactics? No DICE :)

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/10/2010 9:22:09 PM

Toddr22_slith

Posts: 167
Joined: 7/27/2005
Status: offline

I need some basic allied stratergy advice for China.

What line should I defend, what bases to build up, how to allocate troops, etc.

Any help will be appreciated.

Post #: 1

RE: Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/10/2010 11:21:11 PM

topeverest

Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline

I have not been very successful with China - at least not up to what I wanted to do. That said, the first lesson before talking combat is to preserve supply. There just isnt enough supply to go around. I'd turn off all factory repairs, do not build bases or forts except as immeditely needed, and I would refrain from all but the most important air missions, usually recon for major defensive operations and CAP for industry defense (assuming your HR's allows it.) The next lesson I would offer is to understand the quality of the troops under your command. Most have 30's quality and low morales. They will not stand up to the enemy early on, even vastly outnumbering them due to the quality difference. You iwll lose ground in many places early on, should the enemy decide to push. You will want to spend your prescious supply that isnt stockpiled in reserve to train and resupply your ground forces. You will need to rotate forces in and out of combat, so you will be constantly training troops. You will have to gauge how many units can receive replacements based on your supply reserves. from an offensive perspective, I only attack when there is a clearly defined opportunity, or as a tactical move in a major campaign around a city. I would not undertake a major campaign before there are sufficient supply reserves to do so. China is a backwater area in the war. The allies cant win the war there, but they certainly can put themselves behind the 8 ball if it is screwed up. The goals should be to stabilize the defensive perimiter and hold on to, generally speaking I think you can hold 3 of the 4, but at least two of the four zones. With these things in mind, I think of the China zones as Kumming, Chunking, Sian, and Hong Kong / coastal. Due to the lack of supply generation in coastal China, that area is easily lost. It is important to fight for it, but try not to lose the units in a doomed defense. You will want the hard-earned quality later.

Train as many units as possible all the time both to keep morale up and to increase experience. Use Chunking / other major bases with supply hubs as land unit repair shops. Closely monitor total supply used in Tracker to modulate. Send as much air supply as possible from India. Also, the supply rules allow for cutoff units to maintain supply, so a few units behind enemy lines are preferable to cause consternation. I maintain 4 army reserve groupings on highways ready to move to problem areas, use generous recon when supply permits, and defend rivers and forests. In my PBEM, it took 4 months of Japanese victories to begin to stabilize the war, and they took most of coastal china. I guess that is an allied victory of sorts.

Thinking from the Japanese perspective, most players want the bases that either give them the most VP's or best production. Keep that in mind when defending. In any event, you dont want the enemy getting close to chungking, for that is a valuable VP asset to them. In my view that base cluster is the most important to hold if choices must be made.

Hope these comments will help

_____________________________

Andy M

(in reply to Toddr22_slith)

Post #: 2

RE: Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/11/2010 12:16:24 AM

Nomad

Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline

The one thing I have found is that it is very hard to defend in clear terrain. Even with level 3+ fortifications the Japanese player can wear you down and take a city in clear terrain. I try to fight some in the cities in clear terrain but then fall back to hexes with x2 and x3 defense bonuses. Also, the way supply seems to work units in cities will starve and those outside the city will draw supply.

_____________________________

(in reply to topeverest)

Post #: 3

RE: Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/11/2010 12:25:21 AM

Nemo121

Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline

You need to pick a line consistent with your forcs, positions which concentrate your forces along the lines of advance, take advantage of superior lines and where a breakthrough will still allow for an orderly retreat to the next line.

In addition you want all this whilst denying most of the strategically valuable ground to the Japanese. In addition you want to draw a good line between having troops in theatre and having the supplies to supply them.

Just check AARs to find those who have actually managed to hold in China. There are people who have. learn from them, that's the best way really.

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to topeverest)

Post #: 4

RE: Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/11/2010 1:23:17 AM

Sredni

Posts: 705
Joined: 9/30/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

The only experience I have is vs the AI, and not much of that to boot... but I'm restarting my game due to training issues and other early mistakes I made and this time around I plan to "suicide" a multitude of chinese units. All the ones at less then 33% strength I plan to use up harassing the rear area's of the japanese to buy time for my defense at Sian and Changsha to rest and refit a bit.

They will respawn after a month at 33% toe strength as per the special chinese reinforcements rule on pg 261 of the manual at which point some will probably be split between sian and changsha, but some I will probably continue to use as suicide rear area harrasment troops. So any corps unit with less then 240 of the 729 full strength rifle squads will be considered expendable to me. Units with high prep for sian or changsha will be saved if their active+disabled squads amount to enough to think that they may repair to a decent assault value given enough time.

I will upgrade a lot of leaders in those two cities as well, and plan to pile enough hq's and base units in them that I can get support above the requirement in order to facilitate the repair of disabled units. I will split the artillery in chungking between those cities as well though I don't know if thats an effective use of them or not.

In the SW I plan to defend at Nanning with a holding action. Just enough to keep the sparse japanese troops in this area in place. If Liuchow is threatened by troops from canton and hongkong I will abandon nanning and play out a holding action at liuchow. Nannings only value is keeping troops out of liuchow so that the LI in liuchow continues to produce. Nannings industry is all damaged so not worth worrying about. I will send some units behind the japanese lines at nanning to take undefended bases and sit on roads disrupting supply to the japanese attacking nanning/liuchow.

Southern China is where a lot of my wandering harassment troops will be spending their last days. Around canton/hongkong and to the east of them taking and retaking bases simply to disrupt the flow of supply to japanese units in the area. And forcing japanese units to spend time wandering around retaking them.

Changsha's (in central china) value in my mind is simply as a block to keep japanese units out of the LI cities of changteh, shaoyang, siangtan, and hengyang. Once changsha falls those cities become too exposed and indefensible imo, so I don't plan to fortify or defend them any more then I need to to keep encirlement forces from cutting off changsha while it still holds. I will turn on the repair of select 100% prepped units in changsha. Changsha to me is a nice spot to pile a ton of AV and hopefully keep the japanese occupied for a good long while. But not a critical area that needs to be held at all costs or anything. Forts up to 3 will be maintained while holding changsha.

Once changsha falls I will fall back to a line at Tuyun, Chihkiang, and along the river between them to defend. I will do my best to keep enemy troops out of keiyang to keep it's industry active, and will use it as one of the few decent chinese airbases.

I don't think it's possible for the Japanese to effectively assault the Chinese interior from ichang or nanyang, so I don't plan to defend against that, but I will keep a close eye on those areas for sure. I will retake Ichang right at the start with the troops around it, but will withdraw all but a garrison to changteh once it's taken. Nanyang I will defend with just a garrison troop.

I will defend Chengchow and lowyang with the troops in and around them, and use those troops up letting them die for their country. All to delay the assault of sian so that the troops in sian have a chance to rest and repair. Many of the loose troops in this area will be expended harrassing the rear area's of the japanese in eastern and north eastern china. I'm not sure if changchow or lowyang are defensible at all if the japanese go after sian from the south. They seem a little too easy to cut off, but the troops are expendable so meh. Forts up to 3 will be maintained if possible.

I consider holding Sian to be vital, and will expend a lot of effort to do so. Enough support will be diverted to Sian to meet the troop demand so that repairs may commence on those troops. I will spend supplies to build forts beyond 4 in this city. Enough troops in the area will be placed to make encirclement difficult. Many of the loose troops in the area will be diverted to sian and I plan on building up at least 2k AV to start. With many of the reincarnated suicide troops being diverted here ultimately. Select high prep troops will have replacements turned on. Leaders of many of the troops in this city will be replaced.

Yenan I will garrison but won't contest. Worthless resources. Troops there will divert to Sian.

Troops in and around Paotow I will circle around and attempt to conduct a holding action with, simply to keep the japanese from running wild in the far northern china.

The Chinese Air force is worthless imho. Not worth even using. No aircraft production, and the pilots will take years of training to get to a decent level. Ops losses alone would be enough to sideline the majority of the chinese airforce within the first 6 months, even if the japanese didn't move any aircraft at all into china. Does running training missions use up supplies? If it does I'm not even sure if it's worth bothering with even training. I swear the chinese airforce is purely retarded training fodder for the japanese to shoot up.

I'm sure I forgot some stuff, but thats a rough overview of what I plan to do vs the AI. Take it as a very green players plans though heh. Good luck.

< Message edited by Sredni -- 5/11/2010 1:24:46 AM >

(in reply to Toddr22_slith)

Post #: 5

RE: Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/11/2010 10:43:18 AM

xj900uk

Posts: 1340
Joined: 3/22/2007
Status: offline

If you are the Japanese player, you can use the China as your training ground (particularly your air units, which ahve had some pretty good exp increases from turkey status in a couple of months of continuously bombing the milling-around Chinese ground forces, there is practically no air opposition)

(in reply to Sredni)

Post #: 6

RE: Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/11/2010 2:46:23 PM

Marcus_Antonius

Posts: 79
Joined: 8/20/2007
Status: offline

Are you guys who get blasted in China as Allies all playing scenario 2?

Granted, I am an idiot, but we are closing into March '42 in my PBEM game and I am getting shaken up as Japanese. Sure I can win any battle that I choose, but I can not with 20 battles at once with the Chinese pushing continually at the flanks and threatening to cut off my units. From my perspective, China is a quagmire for the Japanese. I can't even imagine how you easily turn that around without completely derailing your early expansion into the DEI and the battles you need to fight in Luzon, Malaya and eventually Burma and New Guinea.

(in reply to xj900uk)

Post #: 7

RE: Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/11/2010 4:17:32 PM

topeverest

Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline

I am playing 1 and a mod, so nope.

Let me suggest you think about what you want to accomplish in china. Several other threads show alternate strategies. I dont think conquering the whole thing is realistic unless you make a major effort there.

_____________________________

Andy M

(in reply to Marcus_Antonius)

Post #: 8

RE: Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/11/2010 8:52:33 PM

Halsey

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline

Standard

Build Army Groups with 3-4 HQ's and 6-8 Inf Corps.
Look to get your AV up to, and past 1200 as the Chinese.
You should end up with 9-12 Army Groups (stacks).
Cover your rear hex with at least one unit, protect the flanks accordingly.
Or you will be eveloped (flanked).

Let your big corps rest in a city, while they are inactive.

Look for good defensive terrain, and the enemies weakest defensive positions.
Threaten in one area, and push in another.

(in reply to Toddr22_slith)

Post #: 9

RE: Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/12/2010 12:14:10 PM

Marcus_Antonius

Posts: 79
Joined: 8/20/2007
Status: offline

This all seems reasonable. Possibly, playing against a live opponent is also more a problem than the AI. I am not complaining at all, and I am fully signed on to the idea that China is a holding action for the Japanese and not an easy conquest. I just wonder about the games where the Japanese seem to be rolling up China, that does not seem to be an easy thing at all in my experience.

(in reply to Halsey)

Post #: 10

RE: Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/12/2010 2:36:32 PM

topeverest

Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline

You definately can gain considerable ground in China as Japanese depending on your committment level. It depends on your warplan.

_____________________________

Andy M

(in reply to Marcus_Antonius)

Post #: 11

RE: Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/12/2010 5:26:53 PM

Q-Ball

Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline

Best advice:

Don't defend clear terrain (this was mentioned)
Prep and Train your units; they start in 30s in EXP, you can get them up around 50-ish by training. This makes a difference.

Big thing though is don't defend clear terrain. I would abandon the central plain around Nanning and Loyang; I have seen a few AARs where the Chinese get slaughtered in this area. It is tempting to defend it to deny the Japanese the rail line to Hankow, but don't.

_____________________________

(in reply to topeverest)

Post #: 12

RE: Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/13/2010 12:58:23 AM

Misconduct

Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline

I am pretty lucky in my game vs the AI (December 8th start) - I have 100k Chinese in Anyang which locked up 100k Japanese troops and neither of us have supply, supply lines for both are at a disadvantage, but me having a level 5 fort helps, every shock attack leaves me with 4:1 kill ratio.

Changsha I have another 100k on defense, no action yet.

I did something I tried in my last WITP game, which I moved 110k troops and remaining of Rangoon defense to Hanoi and setup a level 5 fort and defense.

90k Japanese attempted to storm and 4 months after siege, I shock attacked and booted them out, I was hoping this 110k in troops could take me down to Saigon later in the war to setup airfields for the British, but for now I am simply holding a fort.

However looking at the map Strategically, there is nothing to do in china except perhaps Changsha and Hanoi, otherwise I would simply pull out what you can rather then take losses for no reason.

_____________________________

ASUS Maximus IV Extreme-Z Intel Core I7 2800k Corsair Hydro Heatsink Corsair Vengeance DD3 24GB EVGA GTX 580 Western Digital 1.5TB Raid 0 Windows 7

(in reply to Q-Ball)

Post #: 13

RE: Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/13/2010 1:06:02 AM

Nemo121

Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline

Vs the AI you're going to get mostly braindead assaults into massed fortifications.

vs a human things might be very different. Basically vs a human Japanese player you've got two options:
1. They'll go north for the resources/oil against a small portion of the Chinese forces ( about 4,000 AV in total but with low experience etc ).

2. They'll try to clear the rail lines to Vietnam - vs far more Chinese troops - at least 9,000 AV by the looks of it.

The first thing you need to realise about China is that you NEED to read AARs about it. The vast majority see the Chinese players defending too far forward and being overrun piecemeal before being forced back to a new defensive line and, of course, being overrun there then also as they didn't prep it properly. ONly a few AARs show people with a plan for a defensive disposition on December 8th who actually stuck to that.

When you start the game as China you need to have a defensive line planned out. You need to abandon the positions which are too far forward, consolidate and then fight where you've concentrated your forces. With luck you might just hold.

The key though is not to try to hold everything and to take advantage of your interoir lines - that's crucial. You don't see a lot of that in the AARs though.

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to Misconduct)

Post #: 14

RE: Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/13/2010 2:13:00 AM

topeverest

Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline

I would reiterate that open terrain early on is a death trap too.

_____________________________

Andy M

(in reply to Nemo121)

Post #: 15

RE: Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/13/2010 6:00:34 AM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

Yes, get out of the open terrain and the Japanese offensive will start to stall. As qball says, do not change the prep location for a single unit. No matter where they are leave them be as your units will not start to train up and gain experience until they are prepped 100% for a location. Change it and you will not train up. Getting all of your units trained to the 45-50 exp range is critical. Once at that level, you can start prepping for new locations as they only gain higher experience in battle.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to topeverest)

Post #: 16

RE: Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/14/2010 2:04:17 PM

maypor1410

Posts: 2
Joined: 5/14/2010
Status: offline

wow...

great post..

that a lot info there...

thnx man

_____________________________

acura oem parts
audi oem parts

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 17

RE: Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/17/2010 5:34:11 AM

jonreb31

Posts: 714
Joined: 11/26/2006
From: Santa Cruz, California
Status: offline

Any smart Japanese player will go the northern route where the Chinese forces are weaker and spread out, and also more importantly where he can directly knock out China's homegrown oil and shutdown their already insufficient industry. Combined with knocking out the Burma road and China will become a lake of starving soldiers who couldn't put up much of a fight with meager supplies, and can't fight much better when they have virtually no supplies at all. Like the previous posts have said consolidate and train your forces, and fight where the terrain is rough and more attrition to Japan's forces.

_____________________________

(in reply to maypor1410)

Post #: 18

RE: Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/17/2010 6:39:46 AM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline

One tip for China is to never change the preparation target for Chinese units unless it's 0 prep points. Training that you get when prep points are 100 is IMHO more valuable than prepping to assault target with woefully inexperienced troops. Of course, if you have defensive troops prepped for base, leave them there. Also, use lot of Rest/Training-mode when not in combat to build up morale.

My reasons for that are: 25-30 exp/ 40 morale troops with some preparation to assault target are going to get massacred. On the other had, 40-50 exp/90 morale troops prepped 100 to whatever different target do have some decent staying power. And using Rest to raise morale is very important, even 25-30 exp troops contribute if they have good morale. If they do not have, don't expose them to combat, they just turn to free points for enemy.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von B�lov, 1870-

(in reply to jonreb31)

Post #: 19

RE: Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/21/2010 11:14:57 PM

vicberg

Posts: 1176
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline

My allied opponent is an aggressive player and has concentrated troops around Sinyang...as an experiment, I send 6 squadrons of betties and nells to bomb some his troops in the open...his losses have been horrendous. I was shocked myself, tbh.

On the other side, he moved troops into Singyang (woods). I was in the city...roughly equal AV, which is normally an automatic japanese victory. Took 7 days of fighting, additional reinforcements and though I eventually beat him out, he took odds of 55-1 and 27-1 and still didn't retreat. Chinese in the woods were pretty damn effective

Also, garrison key cities. Japs start with 3 units capable of paradrop and spending PP points, can get enough transports to drop on undefended bases. There's two strategic cities that connect Chungking and the north (Kienko, Tienshui)...I just dropped on Kienko and will probably drop on Tienshui...it may cost me my paratroops but it will halt supplies to Sian, and the north as well as the oil...at the same time, I'm aggressively moving north and attacking anything I touch (to force his supply use). I don't know what will happen, but I'm expecting that losses from lack of supplies will exceed any damage I can do to him.

(in reply to Sardaukar)

Post #: 20

RE: Allied China Tactics? No DICE :) - 5/22/2010 12:41:43 AM

topeverest

Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline

To me, what matters most in china to Japan is the supply road / rail from Vietnam to Manchukuo. After this, I like Sian because of how it threatens the allies, not to mention its factories. Last, Kweiyang opens up conquering all of Yunnan province (Kumming, etc) and opens Burma to China, should that be successful and a goal of the Empire.

Chasing the limited resources or supply is a vaporous goal in my view.

_____________________________

Andy M

(in reply to vicberg)

Post #: 21