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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/19/2010 1:33:26 PM

TulliusDetritus

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Warspite1, I think I gave you a very clear example... Spain. I know this debate started just a few years ago in England. But in Spain the football foreign "invasion" started around 1995, 15 years ago. So if I was wrong the current Spanish generation (possibly the best one they had) should not have appeared at all

Either you are good or not. It's all about the players. You have to produce them. That's all the secret. No law can stop geniuses.

As for UEFA Law, well, what about nationalism... chauvinism?

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/19/2010 1:59:56 PM

warspite1

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You did give an example - but that does not mean you are right anymore than I am

. I think the two countries have fared differently for a number of reasons.

Spain have not suffered the same level of foreign players as England its true - but then there are caps on the number of non-EU players for example, may be they also produce better, more technically skilful players than the English, and may be its something to do with the money available to the Premiership for wages. Remember the imports that were first attracted (with a few exceptions) tended to be players past their prime and were there for the cash. The advent of the Premiership and its money changed all that. Maybe its because they have less foreign managers and so prefer their own nationals. Who knows - its probably a combination of all these things and more.

An influx of foreign players does not stop a "golden generation" - those players were there as the influx began. After all, England "allegedly" produced that in the early 2000's - they just didn't win anything with it....

But what is happening in England, and has happened in Scotland, is fast becoming (or has become) acute - whatever the reason. There is still a pool of players in the home country. But the fact that England have one of the oldest squads suggests that the level of this influx has impacted the emergence of new homegrown players and fewer players are coming through to replace that last generation.

I do not think the UEFA law is anything to do with nationalism or chauvanism - after all it is there to protect all its members.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/19/2010 2:05:23 PM >

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/19/2010 2:41:20 PM

TulliusDetritus

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Well Warspite1,

hypothesis (because it's only that): "foreign players in national leagues = weak national players of that league"

How do we prove this hypothesis is right or wrong?

Mongolia is possibly not a good example

Because foreign or national players in their league (do they have one?) they are totally irrelevant. So let's take the big ones: Argentina, Germany, Brazil, Italy. Only two of them (the Europeans) have seen an influx of foreign players. Well, they still manage to play finals and win them, so, we hardly can prove the foreign players are to be blamed...

And then we have the wannabes

England, Holland, Spain... We blame the foreign players or we simply conclude that the big ones simply prevail (WCs won, etc.)?

From my understanding and experience, most of football fans jumped on this bandwagon. With all due respect, it's a rather vague idea, which hasn't been proven

At least give me one example which proves this invasion kills the national teams. My Spain example is rather contundent, you cannot refute that. And you are mistaken, Spain saw a MASSIVE influx of foreign players (since 1995, as I have said).

Said this I like the 6+5 rule. Well, NOT exactly. I am a purist, so when I see Chelsea FC, I think it's a CLUB. Or Bar�a FClub. So, I would like to see minimum 6 players who always played in the CLUB, since they were kids. As opposed to some nationalist idea. Because Chelsea do not represent England, they represent the members of the club

Good win for Holland, but we haven't seen yet the virtuosity we saw in the Euro Cup

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/19/2010 6:18:30 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Well Warspite1,

hypothesis (because it's only that): "foreign players in national leagues = weak national players of that league"

Warspite1

Guess I am pretty rubbish at explaining things - that was certainly not my hypothesis.

What I thought I had said:

Foreign players in a league = a good thing. (Post 210)
Unchecked no. of foreign players + (and this is just as important) conditions for not bringing through homegrown players = disaster. (The sub text of all my posts on this subject)

You want an example? I have given you one, Scotland, and another well on the way = England

Example: if as a result of the UEFA ruling there is more chance that an English player will feature in each of the top four teams and be exposed to Champions League football, cup finals, league championships, then that is a good thing - a player is better for the experience. But with the unchecked system we have in place, there is no reason we do not have an Arsene Wenger type in charge of all the main teams in the premiership in a year or so. If that happens you get just a couple of Englishmen in each team (perhaps); not enough to even make a full eleven.

So? The players you then have to pick from are from lesser teams who do not play in those games and so who dont get that experience. That is not good. Players who may actually be good may not even get a chance...

How many Englishmen have been bought by Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal or Chelsea in recent seasons? Apart from Glen Johnson (I cannot think of any others) the answer is none. The Englishmen they have are legacy from years ago - either bought or miraculously came through the youth team - Terry, the Coles, Lampard, Rooney, Carragher, Gerrard, Neville, Brown, Walcott, Carrick, Scholes. How old are these guys? The answer tells you all you need to know.

If Spain's influx has been that great, I would not be surprised - I would be nothing short of flabagasted (which I am sure I have spelt wrong).

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/19/2010 7:02:22 PM

TulliusDetritus

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Warspite1, but when Wenger chooses a foreign guy it's not because he does not like the English players. It's because he considers that player is better than his English counterparts. He might be wrong though.

When a foreign coach appears, he will be choosing players he knows (from his previous league or country). This is absolutely natural

Anyway, er, as for your Scotland example...

The problem is you are talking about a very tiny country, so, having excellent players is simply against the odds (kudos to Holland on this one). Brazilians have many excellent players because literally millions of kids play football. How many Scottish kids play football? 12.000? 70.000?).

And England, well, I think they could beat anyone, so that makes them potential winners of this WC. And they have some world-class players (Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard), that's what makes the difference.

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/19/2010 7:49:41 PM

Mynok

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Population and youth development are critical....witness the rise of the US as a solid football nation, despite its lack of a world-class league. But we have masses of youth football programs at schools and in communities starting in the 70s. Now we are reaping the benefits. As a counter-example, we are dying fast as a baseball nation because youth baseball is waning in comparison to youth football (both international and American-style).

Holland has a massive youth development program. They squeeze the absolute maximum talent out of their tiny population. I know nothing about Slovenia but I was duly impressed with them. They are a pretty solid side, with less than half the population of Scotland (2million to 5million) for example. Holland has 16million for additional comparison.

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/19/2010 8:01:45 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Warspite1, but when Wenger chooses a foreign guy it's not because he does not like the English players. It's because he considers that player is better than his English counterparts. He might be wrong though.

When a foreign coach appears, he will be choosing players he knows (from his previous league or country). This is absolutely natural

Anyway, er, as for your Scotland example... The problem is you are talking about a very tiny country, so, having excellent players is simply against the odds (kudos to Holland on this one). Brazilians have many excellent players because literally millions of kids play football. How many Scottish kids play football? 12.000? 70.000?).

And England, well, I think they could beat anyone, so that makes them potential winners of this WC. And they have some world-class players (Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard), that's what makes the difference.

Warspite1

I did not say its because Wenger does not like English players - although frankly, I would not blame him if he didn't. Look at some of the expensive mistakes he has made in the transfer market or problems he has had with homegrown players: Jeffers (English), Wright (English), possibly Walcott (English), Bentley (English) Pennant (English). I don't care if he likes them or not - the fact is he rarely buys them - liking has nothing to do with the discussion. Equally the point you make with the foreign coach is the point I made earlier. More foreign coaches = possibly more foreign players; again perfectly natural. The point you are missing or ignoring is that too much of those two examples = fewer English players....

Not sure why Scotland got a

. But again your answer shows the point is missed completely. This is not about excellent players and that if there were no, or a limited no. of foreign players in their leagues, Scotland or England suddenly become world beaters. That is not what is being said.

I repeat, for the sake of Scottish and English and Spanish (although if you are right then they don't need it) football, there should be a minimum number of homegrown players playing regularly for each club - including the top ones, and (in the case of Scotland) Celtic and Rangers. Look at a recent Scottish team to play in a World Cup qualifier: players from Norwich City, Bristol City, Derby County, Sheffield United and Motherwell. In the 70's and 80's she was a regular World Cup qualifier. Now she is nothing of the sort.

As for your final paragraph; when playing for their clubs Rooney, Lampard and Gerrard are world beaters - but who is following in their footsteps.....? This is the issue.

Anyway, I think I've flogged a deadhorse long enough and we are clearly going to agree to disagree. Never mind, I've enjoyed the debate - hope you have too

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/19/2010 8:21:15 PM >

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/19/2010 8:05:15 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Population and youth development are critical....witness the rise of the US as a solid football nation, despite its lack of a world-class league. But we have masses of youth football programs at schools and in communities starting in the 70s. Now we are reaping the benefits. As a counter-example, we are dying fast as a baseball nation because youth baseball is waning in comparison to youth football (both international and American-style).

Holland has a massive youth development program. They squeeze the absolute maximum talent out of their tiny population. I know nothing about Slovenia but I was duly impressed with them. They are a pretty solid side, with less than half the population of Scotland (2million to 5million) for example.� Holland has 16million for additional comparison.

Warspite1

I'm glad you mentioned youth development being critical because that is one of the key points I have been trying to get across. Becuase of the mentality of immediate success, allied to the amount of money in the premiership, many of the big clubs have lost sight of their youth academies - just buy another overseas player. With the UEFA ruling that cannot happen to the same extent and the bigger clubs are suddenly waking up to this fact.

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/19/2010 8:26:19 PM

Terminus

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1 - 1 at halftime between Denmark and Cameroun, and the talking heads are already blatering on like we've won it...

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/19/2010 8:30:51 PM

Miller

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England were utter **** last night. The Japs had more chance of winning the war than we have of winning this World Cup.

Come to think of it, the Jap football team has more chance of winning this World Cup

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/19/2010 10:00:49 PM

TulliusDetritus

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Warspite 1, right, we will not agree

I think you are way too apocalyptic. The English players hardly make it to the top 3 or 4 Premier Leagues teams? Well, there are still plenty of other teams in that division. Talent will always prevail and therefore they should make it to the PL or foreign top teams, if they deserve it, that is, or if we apply the 6+5 rule. You cannot stop talent, so I can't see the problem

Denmark vs Cameroun has been the most entertaining match so far. Full of defensive mistakes

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/19/2010 10:23:30 PM

Terminus

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On both sides, fortunately... Goals were good, though. All three of 'em...

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/20/2010 3:51:38 PM

warspite1

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GO KIWIS!!

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/20/2010 4:53:43 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: aprezto

Of course I can hardly get my hopes up, but since we are there, and I am as patriotic as the next bloke, I have to add a plug for the Kiwis against Slovakia tonight. In our previous effort (at the world cup) the 'being there' was the victory. This team is a little better than that - or maybe a bit more professional. However, I can't help feeling that the best we can hope for is to score a goal and not get "Australia'd"

Warspite1

Well we need one real shock result from the first round of matches - lets hope the All Whites provide it. Unfortunately Slovakia are one half of a useful footballing nation; four major finals as Czechoslovakia - two World Cup finals and two European Championship finals (Champions in 1976).

This side beat Russia in the play-offs and are a useful team, but fingers crossed - 1-0 to the All Whites, Plymouth's Rory Fallon scores with 10 minutes to go and New Zealand hold on for a famous victory.........

Warspite1

Okay - not quite as planned but a great result for the All Whites nonetheless. Now a point against Italy and a win against Paraguay and the last 16 here we come.....simples

Warspite1

Oh yes - one to go New Zealand....Come on you All Whites, you can do it

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/20/2010 5:20:59 PM >

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/20/2010 5:06:05 PM

V22 Osprey

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Italy and New Zealand draws 1:1

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/20/2010 6:21:24 PM

Terminus

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Good for the Kiwis. Always nice to see the underdogs do well...

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/20/2010 7:52:14 PM

Dixie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Good for the Kiwis. Always nice to see the underdogs do well...

They could've won it with a good late shot.

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/21/2010 12:39:14 AM

aprezto

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I'll just quantify this by saying my idea of football is when you pick up the ball, so already you could be justified in saying I (and kiwis for that matter) are confused, but what in a world of all that is good is with the pandering to the acting that goes with Italian football???

I swear the Kiwis backed off because they thought that the wind from a near miss might throw the Italians to the ground clutching their wounded hairdos.

Their penalty shot was ridiculous.

That aside, this is the greatest day in New Zealand football. There was so much talk about how we weren't supposed to be there, our qualification was too easy, and that Italy had struck it lucky with one of the easiest draws to the second round of all the football super-powers.

There is a warm and fuzzy feeling in this ardent rugby supporter's soul for the fight those second-string part-timers managed to muster against a team and establishment that is completely professional (including acting lessons).

After looking at the display shown by Paraguay against Slovakia I am still realist enough to hedge my bets for qualification for the second round, but drawing with Italy certainly changes the feelings from: 'ha ha that's a good one' to 'well maybe if the moon is aligned with Jupiter and Mars, and the Paraguayan team feast on dodgy kebabs the night before', then maybe, just maybe...

It certainly helps to be written off before the game even starts. Maybe that might be the undoing of the dream?

< Message edited by aprezto -- 6/21/2010 9:12:10 PM >

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/21/2010 3:34:26 PM

Terminus

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There goes the DPRK... Not with a whimper, but with SEVEN bangs...

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/21/2010 5:13:22 PM

BigBadWolf

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I'd hate to be in their shoes when they return home and face the beloved leader. I'm sensing uranium mine in their near future...

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/21/2010 5:31:00 PM

Canoerebel

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We had a long drive home to Georgia from Fort Walton Beach yesterday. We listened to the radio broadcast of the Atlanta Braves and Kansas City Royals baseball game. The Braves came back to score the winning runs in the 8th inning. It was a relaxing and pleasing game (from the perspective of a Braves fan). The "down time" sprinkled throughout a baseball broadcast allowed us to talk about the game or other stuff, munch on pretzels, look at maps, and enjoy the countryside. And there wasn't a single annoying vuvuzela to annoy the audience.

Viva le baseball!

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/21/2010 6:59:41 PM

Chickenboy

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/21/2010 7:03:09 PM

Blind Sniper

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quote:

Their penalty shot was ridiculous.

I would say that Kiwis goal was irregular. The penalty wasn't so clean although...

quote:

They could've won it with a good late shot.

Yes, but it would have been a wrong result, their defence was literally all team!

Anyhow hat off to All Whites (especially Paston) and very poor performance for the Italian team...
Just one goal and only thanks to penalty...very bad attack.

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/22/2010 9:08:58 AM

Flying Tiger

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quote:

USA had an AMAZING game against Slovenia.. historical comeback. We should have won 3-2 but the referee cannot be referred to without explicit language.

the ref was from Nigeria right? I'd like to monitor his bank account details closely over the next few months - a big payout on its way one suspects....

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/22/2010 9:13:48 AM

Flying Tiger

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quote:

I'd hate to be in their shoes when they return home and face the beloved leader. I'm sensing uranium mine in their near future...

i'm guessing the 'inspirational speech' from their beloved leader had something to do with the slightly-below-average performance - but i'm not sure the players would be wise to remind him of that!

if you can remember the right combination of kims and yungs you can check to see if ANY of these guys are in the PRK team next outing - safe bet the answer is "NOT!"

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/22/2010 12:22:19 PM

TulliusDetritus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flying Tiger

quote:

USA had an AMAZING game against Slovenia.. historical comeback. We should have won 3-2 but the referee cannot be referred to without explicit language.

the ref was from Nigeria right? I'd like to monitor his bank account details closely over the next few months - a big payout on its way one suspects....

Yes, the referee will receive $ 10.000.000. But first he will have to send $ 1.000 via Western Union... Honest

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigBadWolf

I'd hate to be in their shoes when they return home and face the beloved leader. I'm sensing uranium mine in their near future...

Well, one of the players will be spared. He was born in Japan and lives there. In theory he had a South Korean nationality but his mom convinced him that he should become a North Korean (the kid received a North Korean education in Japan: a special school). Weird anecdote but true

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/22/2010 2:52:53 PM

Mynok

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flying Tiger

quote:

USA had an AMAZING game against Slovenia.. historical comeback. We should have won 3-2 but the referee cannot be referred to without explicit language.

the ref was from Nigeria right? I'd like to monitor his bank account details closely over the next few months - a big payout on its way one suspects....

He was from Mali.

The Swiss got screwed royally.

< Message edited by Mynok -- 6/22/2010 2:53:34 PM >

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/22/2010 3:44:54 PM

Rob Brennan UK

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RSA 2 France 0 .. almost 1/2 time. France has really imploded, but i'm happy to see the host nation do so well.

Most of the time i'm of the opinion a ball should be carried and not kicked

but its the world cup after all.

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/22/2010 6:12:28 PM

Blind Sniper

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