Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

From my own experience, many projects have gone into failure simply because no one did not want to drop features in order to make the project be successful. Being afraid of what might happen is ususlly a poor way to make decisions (and not just in game design, lol).

Given the lenght of time this has been in development, restarted, stopped, etc. I would think that putting something out that looked good and played well without an AI would indicate more of a success than a failure. An AI could always be added later too. Also just because Matrix and Shannon have stated over and over again that MWiF will have an AI, does not mean that they should blindly follow this course without at least exploring other options. That is why I statred this thread to let them know that there are people that would buy an AI-less MWiF. In other words, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.

On way to settle this issue for real, would be for Matrix to offer MWiF without an AI as a pre-order and see how many would sign up. I know I would and I suspect that many others here would too.

The bottom line is Matrix knows what they are contractualy obligated to do, knows what the expected sales numbers would be, etc. Without having the same information they have, all we can do is speculate and make suggestions. I want this game to be as successful as the next person here. However, I also do not want Matrix to feel that they have to blindly follow a path when other options exist either. Especially when that path may lead over a cliff

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

In my opinion releasing the game without an AI limits the customer market base. Reviewers who expect an AI will hammer it in the ratings department. I feel it would be sending the game straight to the bottom of the ocean with no life support.

Stole the words right out of my mouth as always your words are enlightning the new me

Bo

Bo you sure make me laugh a lot. Have a great day!

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

From my own experience, many projects have gone into failure simply because no one did not want to drop features in order to make the project be successful. Being afraid of what might happen is ususlly a poor way to make decisions (and not just in game design, lol).

Given the lenght of time this has been in development, restarted, stopped, etc. I would think that putting something out that looked good and played well without an AI would indicate more of a success than a failure. An AI could always be added later too. Also just because Matrix and Shannon have stated over and over again that MWiF will have an AI, does not mean that they should blindly follow this course without at least exploring other options. That is why I statred this thread to let them know that there are people that would buy an AI-less MWiF. In other words, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.

On way to settle this issue for real, would be for Matrix to offer MWiF without an AI as a pre-order and see how many would sign up. I know I would and I suspect that many others here would too.

The bottom line is Matrix knows what they are contractualy obligated to do, knows what the expected sales numbers would be, etc. Without having the same information they have, all we can do is speculate and make suggestions. I want this game to be as successful as the next person here. However, I also do not want Matrix to feel that they have to blindly follow a path when other options exist either. Especially when that path may lead over a cliff

I need to point out that this project is not CWiF it is MWiF. ADG clearly states on their website that MWiF is a new game based on the code from CWiF. This is the same as having a Game v1.0 and 5 years later Game v2.0. Therefore, let me reiterate MWiF has never been stopped or restarted. I do want to make sure people who are unfamiliar with the complete history do not infer that this game has been stopped or restarted at all. It is true ADG is making a second attempt at making a PC capable version of WiF. But Matrix is on the first run for their project of MWiF.

I do agree with your statement that reaction to releasing a game with or without an AI is pure speculation at best. Without specific metrics to back up statements, mine included it is not possible to truly know. I would suggest people familiarize themselves with who has beta access and who does not. You will find the beta team can not discuss specifics but we can have opinion based on a bit more fact than speculation. Although we do make mistakes at times we will clearly retract and correct our statements. However Steve usually beats us to that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

From my own experience, many projects have gone into failure simply because no one did not want to drop features in order to make the project be successful. Being afraid of what might happen is ususlly a poor way to make decisions (and not just in game design, lol).

Given the lenght of time this has been in development, restarted, stopped, etc. I would think that putting something out that looked good and played well without an AI would indicate more of a success than a failure. An AI could always be added later too. Also just because Matrix and Shannon have stated over and over again that MWiF will have an AI, does not mean that they should blindly follow this course without at least exploring other options. That is why I statred this thread to let them know that there are people that would buy an AI-less MWiF. In other words, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.

On way to settle this issue for real, would be for Matrix to offer MWiF without an AI as a pre-order and see how many would sign up. I know I would and I suspect that many others here would too.

The bottom line is Matrix knows what they are contractualy obligated to do, knows what the expected sales numbers would be, etc. Without having the same information they have, all we can do is speculate and make suggestions. I want this game to be as successful as the next person here. However, I also do not want Matrix to feel that they have to blindly follow a path when other options exist either. Especially when that path may lead over a cliff

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar


I also wanted to point out that just because everyone says that they will not buy a game without an AI, is that a real opnion? If MWiF was released tomorrow with no AI, would you REALLY not buy it after looking at the screen shots that Shannon has provide? I know I would want it anyway, especially if I knew that at some point an expansion was to be released that would add an AI.

In the business world, it is always better to generate cash flows now, versus cash flows at some point in the indeterminate future.This thread is just one way that Matrix could do it without too much of a problem (at least from an outsiders view )

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Peter’s library of LAIO common functions is substantial at this point though I expect it to continue to grow. Most programmers will understand this terminology, and for those of you who don’t, a function is a fragment of code that is used by multiple LAIO scripts.

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As WiF is progressing, my suggestion would be to release the game without an AI... This has been discussed in the past numerous times and is not viable for a number of reasons.

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

to Bo

While I completely disagree about releasing the game without an AI from Numdydar. He makes a valid point that we are all speculating. However some of us speculate with extensive experience and knowledge of the computer industry. Others speculate from their beta team knowledge of MWiF. Some peculate with a background from both of the former items. Still, others are just making wild guesses. I do not know anybody's background and do not want to place them in any of these categories (except we know the beta team). However I feel confident in my knowledge, background, experience, and beta access.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
... selling unended products ... up to a certain extent some of the TW series games, can be financially successful but ethically very reprehensible, promising an AI and then giving pure shi-t, that would be repaired after one year of continuous patches is simply despicable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

I personally enjoyed Rome: Total War the most due to richness of the period. Eventually I became bored after mastering the game.

It turns out there is a group which have done wonderful things modding the original game.

Google "Europa Barbarorum" and you will find the much richer game that was scaled back from the original development team.

Very challenging and if you thought the original campaign was fun, this is much more challenging and realistic.

Oh, did I mention the word *FREE*

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562


I do want to make sure people who are unfamiliar with the complete history do not infer that this game has been stopped or restarted at all. It is true ADG is making a second attempt at making a PC capable version of WiF. But Matrix is on the first run for their project of MWiF.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562


I do want to make sure people who are unfamiliar with the complete history do not infer that this game has been stopped or restarted at all. It is true ADG is making a second attempt at making a PC capable version of WiF. But Matrix is on the first run for their project of MWiF.

I am glad that you clarified my post as I was not trying to imply that Matrix had stoped and restarted. But I would think that after ADG's efforts of a period of time and then Matrix's efforts, that both would be willing to take a hard look at their options about how the game should be released.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Patience

Well lets do the math.  If it is true that 40% of the buyers of this game would buy it without a functional kick butt AI and it were to be released in 3 formats,
1) Without AI
2) With AI
3) Patch to add AI

Lets also look at sales volume.  To say that a grand total of 10000 copies would be sold is to say to Matrix that there really isn't any money in it.  More accurately projected sales of around 100000 is more realistic.

So lets see... If they sell the NO AI version for 59.95 and 40000 buy it because they really don't need an AI then the company can gross 2,398,000.  Hmm seems pretty good so far.

Then Matrix releases the full deal with working AI for 99.95 and the remaining 60000 buy that one and matrix makes another 5,997,000. and at the same time out comes the patch for anyone who bought the NO AI who wants to have an AI and it goes for 39.95 but then you also gotta figure alot of those folks who bought the NO AI still don't care about it so then Matrix only sells 20000 upgrades for an additional 799,000.

The total revenue from the game would be roughly 9 million..... maybe.

If Matrix releases the game with AI only then the total is 10 million easily.  Matrix is in business to make money and great selling products.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Patience

Well lets do the math.  If it is true that 40% of the buyers of this game would buy it without a functional kick butt AI and it were to be released in 3 formats,
1) Without AI
2) With AI
3) Patch to add AI

Lets also look at sales volume.  To say that a grand total of 10000 copies would be sold is to say to Matrix that there really isn't any money in it.  More accurately projected sales of around 100000 is more realistic.

So lets see... If they sell the NO AI version for 59.95 and 40000 buy it because they really don't need an AI then the company can gross 2,398,000.  Hmm seems pretty good so far.

Then Matrix releases the full deal with working AI for 99.95 and the remaining 60000 buy that one and matrix makes another 5,997,000. and at the same time out comes the patch for anyone who bought the NO AI who wants to have an AI and it goes for 39.95 but then you also gotta figure alot of those folks who bought the NO AI still don't care about it so then Matrix only sells 20000 upgrades for an additional 799,000.

The total revenue from the game would be roughly 9 million..... maybe.

If Matrix releases the game with AI only then the total is 10 million easily.  Matrix is in business to make money and great selling products.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It already knocks the socks off Vassal without an AI. I have not seen the version of Vassal with an AI.

Patience is aptly named, but his analysis does not take into acount the cost of money. At average inflation rates the time between now and a "kick-butt AI" will model the 1914 Mark versus the 1924 Mark.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

I care about what ADG think, and I can't imagine that they are enthusiastic about what has transpired. Is this what Harry signed on for in February of 2004? Does the release of an MWiF with no AI and limited to the same four scenarios - little more than a gussied-up CWiF - conform to his vision? I think not.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: MajorDude

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
... selling unended products ... up to a certain extent some of the TW series games, can be financially successful but ethically very reprehensible, promising an AI and then giving pure shi-t, that would be repaired after one year of continuous patches is simply despicable.

While selling unfinished products is not really a good thing to do, pretty much across the board, the computer game publishing world has been doing this for at least a decade now.

Basically gone are the days when major producers hold games until they are absolutely 100% perfect before launch. Why? Three main reasons:

1 - It's way too expensive,

2 - Competition - if you don't get yours out quick enough, somebody else will make a cheap look-alike game and mess up your niche and marketing,

3 - Technology - get it done and out there before technology changes too much and leaves your game in the dust.


I have participated in numerous betas now, and continue to do so. Companies can no longer afford to have every type of machine, graphics card, etc. in house for testing, so they push it out in beta form for a lot of this kind of testing: stress, load, graphics, glitches, exploits, holes, etc.


Developing a good ai for a game is a huge undertaking. Small games have it easier, but how many times do you read reviews dissing the ai even in small games that are pretty close to getting it right.

The bigger the game, the grander the scale, the harder it is to write ai scripts that can react to all the possible 'human' events without it becoming too predictable hence boring. At the same time, you have to be careful not to give so much leeway that the ai starts to look silly or stupid.


It amazes me when I sometimes read comments players make about the ai in games. It often sounds like a sibling chiding another, much younger sibling "for playing like a doof". Yet, as soon as a game comes out with a really good, tough ai, how many of those same players do you see dissing it "because the ai is way too strong" or "the ai must be cheating because...". I truly believe there are some players out there that may not realize that what they want may not be possible, simply because what they want would beat them very often, and they are not going to accept that.


Now you took a stab at the TW series. It is not without its flaws, for sure. But to call the series "despicable", is a little over the top imho. The TW series has found a niche and a large following in the gaming community. The series is basically improving with each and every iteration. The ai is getting better and better with each new title.

Their latest announcement, Shogun 2 TW, has the ambitious schedule to program the ai using "Sun Tzu’s principles in the Art of War, the Artificial Intelligence constantly analyses its situation and reacts to your every move with greater precision and variety."


The people at CA, who make the TW series, admit themselves that the ai is the single, most difficult nut to crack in each and every one of their games. They aim high, they strive to get it as right as possible, and they admit they aren't always able to get it perfect.

So, just like almost all game publishers today, they test, then they patch. While it used to take a very long time for the pacth to come out, they now come out in almost record time, especially for small things that are easy to fix.


You know, it kind of makes me wonder how some may have forgotten board gaming BEFORE computers. Guys, you would not believe how many board games did NOT come out perfect the first time. We all lived by the famous word, ERRATA. Almost every board game came with a list of ERRATA that included:

1 - counter misprints, or missing counters,

2 - rule misprints,

3 - deployment misprints,

4 - rules omissions and deletions,

5 - and the dreaded "map misprints, omissions, and deletions" that required you to take out the pens and markers to fix it.


Gaming is a hobby. Hobbies involve crafting. Game publishers like CA for the TW series strive to get it as right as possible. It's not always perfect, but the types of games they make are the hardest to program for an ai opponent. We, as members of this hobby, can try to help to make these games better and help to give insight as to how we think ai can be improved.

Calling the TW series "despicable" does not hold water imo. If they were truly "despicable", they would not sell as well as they do or have the kind of following they have. Do they need input and feedback to get it better the next time? Of course they do.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: MajorDude

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
... selling unended products ... up to a certain extent some of the TW series games, can be financially successful but ethically very reprehensible, promising an AI and then giving pure shi-t, that would be repaired after one year of continuous patches is simply despicable.

While selling unfinished products is not really a good thing to do, pretty much across the board, the computer game publishing world has been doing this for at least a decade now.

Basically gone are the days when major producers hold games until they are absolutely 100% perfect before launch. Why? Three main reasons:

1 - It's way too expensive,

2 - Competition - if you don't get yours out quick enough, somebody else will make a cheap look-alike game and mess up your niche and marketing,

3 - Technology - get it done and out there before technology changes too much and leaves your game in the dust.


I have participated in numerous betas now, and continue to do so. Companies can no longer afford to have every type of machine, graphics card, etc. in house for testing, so they push it out in beta form for a lot of this kind of testing: stress, load, graphics, glitches, exploits, holes, etc.


Developing a good ai for a game is a huge undertaking. Small games have it easier, but how many times do you read reviews dissing the ai even in small games that are pretty close to getting it right.

The bigger the game, the grander the scale, the harder it is to write ai scripts that can react to all the possible 'human' events without it becoming too predictable hence boring. At the same time, you have to be careful not to give so much leeway that the ai starts to look silly or stupid.


It amazes me when I sometimes read comments players make about the ai in games. It often sounds like a sibling chiding another, much younger sibling "for playing like a doof". Yet, as soon as a game comes out with a really good, tough ai, how many of those same players do you see dissing it "because the ai is way too strong" or "the ai must be cheating because...". I truly believe there are some players out there that may not realize that what they want may not be possible, simply because what they want would beat them very often, and they are not going to accept that.


Now you took a stab at the TW series. It is not without its flaws, for sure. But to call the series "despicable", is a little over the top imho. The TW series has found a niche and a large following in the gaming community. The series is basically improving with each and every iteration. The ai is getting better and better with each new title.

Their latest announcement, Shogun 2 TW, has the ambitious schedule to program the ai using "Sun Tzu’s principles in the Art of War, the Artificial Intelligence constantly analyses its situation and reacts to your every move with greater precision and variety."


The people at CA, who make the TW series, admit themselves that the ai is the single, most difficult nut to crack in each and every one of their games. They aim high, they strive to get it as right as possible, and they admit they aren't always able to get it perfect.

So, just like almost all game publishers today, they test, then they patch. While it used to take a very long time for the pacth to come out, they now come out in almost record time, especially for small things that are easy to fix.


You know, it kind of makes me wonder how some may have forgotten board gaming BEFORE computers. Guys, you would not believe how many board games did NOT come out perfect the first time. We all lived by the famous word, ERRATA. Almost every board game came with a list of ERRATA that included:

1 - counter misprints, or missing counters,

2 - rule misprints,

3 - deployment misprints,

4 - rules omissions and deletions,

5 - and the dreaded "map misprints, omissions, and deletions" that required you to take out the pens and markers to fix it.


Gaming is a hobby. Hobbies involve crafting. Game publishers like CA for the TW series strive to get it as right as possible. It's not always perfect, but the types of games they make are the hardest to program for an ai opponent. We, as members of this hobby, can try to help to make these games better and help to give insight as to how we think ai can be improved.

Calling the TW series "despicable" does not hold water imo. If they were truly "despicable", they would not sell as well as they do or have the kind of following they have. Do they need input and feedback to get it better the next time? Of course they do.