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Advice needed concerning surrounding troops

 
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Advice needed concerning surrounding troops - 6/26/2010 8:39:36 AM   
Cornstar

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 7/27/2008
Status: offline 		Gents,

I need some advice on the tactical situation below (march 27, 1942).



I'm playing allies vs AI, I've got 1500 AV in Moulmein and surrounding Moulmein I have 100-200 AV in each hex. The Japanese have some 40k troops, 200 guns and 33 vehicles in Moulmein. This situation started out with the AI wandering into Moulmein with these troops, expecting very little it seemed. I already had 1000 AV or so in place, I diverted some amphibs already on its way to Moulmein to drop behind Japanese lines to cut off supplies, did the same east of Moulmein with troops from Pegu. The Japanese troops in Moulmein already have a (-) modifier because they have low supplies. I've been bombing them daily for about 15 turns with 50 or so medium level bombers from Rangoon and Moulmein. The troops I have in Moulmein do not seem sufficient to wipe them out, already lost loads in deliberate attacks.

My question now is, how to finish them off? I sense big Japanese reinforcements on its way since AI's doing crescendo in DEI, so I don't have months to let this drag on, I need to free these troops to reinforce bits to the north as well. I'm not fully clear on the rules concerning surrounding troops. The way I understand the rules, I could enter Moulmein from all sides with the surrounding troops, thereby being owner of all hexes sides surrounding and in Moulmein, thereby making escape impossible, thus surrender/destruction the only possible outcome. Would this move still cut off Japanese supplies to Moulmein? Or do I need to keep troops surrounding Moulmein to sort that effect?

Perhaps someone can shed some light on this.

Thanks!
Post #: 1
RE: Advice needed concerning surrounding troops - 6/26/2010 8:46:10 AM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Given the vagaries of the code and combat model surrounding troops in bases they don't control ( or open terrain ) is usually the worst thing you can do as they fight to the death and refuse to just sensibly retreat or surrender when you get 2:1 odds in combat against them.

If I were you I'd open the escape route for them into Thailand, reinforce Moulmein and once the IJA opens the LOCs into Moulmein conduct an immediate attack which gets 2:1 odds. You'll kick the Japanese out of Moulmein then and destroy an additional 20% of their force through forcing a retreat.

Counter-intuitive and ahistorical? Certainly, but it is the way the game works ;-)


_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to Cornstar)
Post #: 2
RE: Advice needed concerning surrounding troops - 6/26/2010 4:15:17 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		I haven't had any trouble wiping out enemy stacked units in similar situations. It just takes some time to wipe them out. Why to let them out to be able to fight again?

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 3
RE: Advice needed concerning surrounding troops - 6/26/2010 4:34:09 PM   
vonTirpitz


Posts: 511
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Wilmington, NC
Status: offline 		Part of the problem is likely LCU experience.

The Commonwealth troops in Burma are not very experienced that early in the war (3/42) and I would expect you will need much more than merely 2:1 odds to beat the more experienced IJA troops you are facing.

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 4
RE: Advice needed concerning surrounding troops - 6/26/2010 5:06:01 PM   
Cornstar

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 7/27/2008
Status: offline 		Just checked experience, most INF LCU's are between 50-60 and 2 ARM with 70 exp. Have yet to get 2:1 odds though. Still a bit worried about letting them escape, it seems such a waste of effort after all this encircling. I'm keeping them there for another week. Does the no supply penalty increase or is it on/off? They must be tossing pebbles at me by now...

(in reply to vonTirpitz)
Post #: 5
RE: Advice needed concerning surrounding troops - 6/26/2010 5:25:24 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Well:

1. He says that time is an issue.

2. You can much more rapidly destroy these troops by unencircling them, attacking them, forcing them back and then continuing to pursue and attack them. 3 or 4 such attacks and while the unit might not be "wiped out" it WOULD be down to 1 or 2% effectives.


Often the most obvious, direct solution is not the best. If he wants to utterly destroy them then he can maintain his position. If he wishes to trade utter destruction ( 100% ) for time then he can get 95%+ destruction in a LOT less time ( which he said was critical as he sense IJA reinforcements coming ).


Obviously the choice is his... However a one string to your bow kind of approach really doesn't work to best advantage in something as complicated as AE.

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to Cornstar)
Post #: 6
RE: Advice needed concerning surrounding troops - 6/26/2010 5:58:16 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Well isnt the core issue that he cant get 2:1 odds. If he cant do that, he cant neither force a retreat nor destruction.
Getting that and apparently fast is the issue.

Cant give much as in advice other than bringing more AV to up the odds. U play the AI and i dunno on what difficulty.
Should he have supply probs lowering his modified AV, sure, but its the AI u play.
Not that i know, but its very possible depending on difficulty that it gets supply bonuses.

As too advice, either bring up more AV, if u can. Else there isnt much more u can do than air bombard/naval bombardment.
Try Shock attack if u close to 1:1 / 2:1 in odds and force the odds. Else attack deliberatly, rest to bringing down disruption, rinse and repeat.

If there isnt time i guess u will have to abandon the encirclement and be happy u have stopped him cold so far.


Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 6/26/2010 6:02:12 PM >

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 7
RE: Advice needed concerning surrounding troops - 6/26/2010 6:05:57 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		A cunning plan(TM) could be opening the trail and let the relieving forces into Moulmein. Then close the trap again and start over.
Ofc it will take longer time, but the possible reward is so much greater and he doesnt have endless troops for relieve attempts.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 8
RE: Advice needed concerning surrounding troops - 6/26/2010 6:20:52 PM   
Cornstar

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 7/27/2008
Status: offline 		I'm playing on historical (?)/normal difficulty, first time campaign, and learning the ropes on the fly.

The troops seem to be a tat fatigued (20 on average), so not attacking in the near future. Does bombarding cause fatigue as well? They've all been doing so. On the other hand the japs also did bombardments, not sure what causes the fatigue.

Funny thing is that I'm doing the exact same thing in Singyang and Hong Kong (in Japanese hands), filled it with LCU's (which chew away resources in own base like there's no tomorrow, but not so in enemy bases), and they can't get me out. And I can't get them out. 3x Stalingrad in the pacific it seems.

Thanks for the advice so far. I'm going to keep the encirclement in place for another week, get more AV in and have a final go in 10 days or so. If big losses occur again I'm opening the encirclement and will see if this helps in getting them out.

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 9
RE: Advice needed concerning surrounding troops - 6/26/2010 7:38:27 PM   
Cornstar

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 7/27/2008
Status: offline 		Little additional question. Might it be that this stalemate is caused by overbombing the 40k encircled soldiers. Because of this they are disorganized, low on supplies and fatigued, and therefore refusing to attack and throw themselves at my lvl 5 fortifications? Perhaps give them some air will make them do stupid things? Questions, questions, questions... :-).

(in reply to Cornstar)
Post #: 10
RE: Advice needed concerning surrounding troops - 6/26/2010 8:10:51 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Piece of advice for you regarding learning good play: Don't learn "tricks" against the AI which won't work against human players. Play the AI as though you're playing a human and focus on learning proper strategy and operational art. Learning "tricks" like that won't serve you well in the long run as you'll focus your time on the wrong things to learn when facing a human player.


Learning tricks etc will let you beat the AI but learning good basic strategy will let you beat anyone, help your education in military matters ( if that matters to you ) and help you understand a lot more about history and the reality of the various options open to historical leaders.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 6/26/2010 8:18:24 PM >

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to Cornstar)
Post #: 11
RE: Advice needed concerning surrounding troops - 6/27/2010 12:55:46 AM   
bigred


Posts: 3599
Joined: 12/27/2007
Status: offline 		On the coast, ship bombard them when you attack. Use all your lba, remember combined arms.

< Message edited by bigred -- 6/27/2010 12:56:27 AM >

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 12
RE: Advice needed concerning surrounding troops - 6/27/2010 6:52:14 AM   
Cornstar

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 7/27/2008
Status: offline 		You're probably right Nemo, giving them time to recuperate, with hopes of them doing stupid things is a bit gamey. Guess I'm just a bit disappointed my Burmese seaborn-counter-blitzkrieg-kessel is turning out to be a dud. On the part of playing PBEM, I'll probably never play a human player since I just don't have the time nor the discipline to keep a proper game going. Real life is a b*tch :-). I've already amazed myself making it to march.

@ bigred: haven't tried ship bombardment yet. Is this possible on a friendly base? Going to give it a try, there's a fair few British BB's refueling in Colombo.


(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 13
RE: Advice needed concerning surrounding troops - 6/27/2010 8:58:55 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Well, you just need to attack with whatever you have until you see message "Japanese units surrounded in Moulmein". Then you know they are toast soon. Beware, that AI (just like human player) can be running air transport supply to those troops or even landing supplies from barges, since it's coastal hex.


_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to Cornstar)
Post #: 14
RE: Advice needed concerning surrounding troops - 6/27/2010 11:33:25 AM   
janh

 

Posts: 1216
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline 		I think you'd better let the IJA open an escape path and retreat.   The losses they suffer during that would be acceptable, but annihilating them now would be gamey.  A human player would probably fight to reopen his lines of communication and maybe fight his way back a little.  I think you'll have much more fun with your game if you allow AI to survive another day than to enjoy victory due to its shortcomings.

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 15
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