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RE: One Weird Battle

 
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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/7/2010 1:06:03 AM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

CaptHarlock:  There's alot of merit to what you say.  I would have seriously contemplated taking that position, but I know that Brad has really been under the gun lately at work. I truly believe this oversight was purely a result of unusual pressures he's facing in real life.  (I do wish, however, that he had made the same offer to me on the game's first turn.  I was incorrectly under the impression that House Rules prohibited me from issuing orders to Force Z.  So I didn't issue any and lost both the BC and BB.  Had Brad offered a re-do just to correct that oversight, I would have accepted.)

Vettim: Early in the game I made the strategic decisions to send all troops to the Aleutians, Hawaii, Oz, and India.  NZ was to be left expendable.  I also knew that the further we went into the game, the more likely it would seem to Brad that NZ had been reinforced, thus dissuading him from attacking.  Thus, from day one, NZ has been left to fend for itself.  I haven't sent patrol aircraft there because I need them more other places.  Even if I detected an approaching invasion, there's nothing I would or could do in reaction.  Nevertheless, there's no sense in not having any Hudsons set to naval search, so I've made that change.



But it was a deliberate move on his behalf and was set for a specific purpose (to mislead you). It was not accidental. The move in itself is good gaming. However, forgetting about it or not even considering the possible results of the move can't be just written off with an excuse since the action may have actually led you to take action that you would otherwise not have.

But, you really do yourself no harm giving him a break because if you screw up big time later on it will be hard for QBall not to cut you some slack as well. Bargaining chip.... And you collect one more good deed chit that will help you eventually get into gamer's heaven.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/7/2010 1:52:49 AM   
Canoerebel


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We've all been over this before, but the air war is really skewed terribly.  In my game with Miller, I had to assume that my failure to train pilots skewed things, so I just didn't say much about that aspect of the game.  But now that I'm training pilots religiously, I still have problems out the wazzoo.  Even though the air war has not been particularly hot in our game, there are no RAF fighters or bombers in the pools, no USAAF fighters or bombers, and a dearth of RAF pilots and USAAF bomber pilots.

That seems badly skewed, and all the more when Japan can put Tojos in the air in big numbers early, and has no problem in mid-1942 filling the air with scads of Helens, Sallies, Zeroes, Oscars, and Tojos that have decent pilots.

The Allies do get the 4EB, which are terrific at downing enemy CAP, and which can inflict big damage.  But, unlike the observations made by several IJ players, I can't keep mine in the air and I have limited numbers as of September 1942.

Despite what one poster said, I think Allied 4EB are more than offset by IJ Netties. They pack a powerful punch that the Allied player has to seriously respect out to a range of 10 or 15 hexes. The Allies have nothing like that.

There are other things, too, like flak.

In this game, the Allied "soft defense" strategy has minimized the impact of many of these problems. In fact, only in India, where I don't have enough planes or good pilots, am I even being pressed at the moment. But I can sure see why this state of affairs would be a real problem in games following a more historical pattern.

Finally, I need to point out that I requested Scenario Two and thus have to take what perks it provides Japanese players.  As far as I know, my mutterings are limited to things outside of Scenario Two (i.e., things that apply in every scenario) that don't seem consistent with reality.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 12/7/2010 1:59:06 AM >

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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/7/2010 2:14:13 AM   
Mike Solli


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In my opinion, the Allied 4E bomber is the best fighter they have.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/7/2010 2:26:44 AM   
witpqs


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He means highly trained via on-map training.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/7/2010 2:29:30 AM   
Mike Solli


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I understand what he means. I think that Allied 4E bombers are practically impossible to bring down and that they kill lots of unarmored, poor Japanese fighters. Not complaining, mind you. I'd rather take on Allied fighters than 4E bombers. Then there's the fact that whatever is below the bomber is obliterated too.....

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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/7/2010 3:43:27 AM   
vettim89


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I understand what he means. I think that Allied 4E bombers are practically impossible to bring down and that they kill lots of unarmored, poor Japanese fighters. Not complaining, mind you. I'd rather take on Allied fighters than 4E bombers. Then there's the fact that whatever is below the bomber is obliterated too.....


Few would disagree that 4E bombers are too powerful but all in all the game is in balance from a broad perspective. Yes, the 4E are overstated but that is offset by the fact that the 2E Allied bombers are about useless. In RL, AB suppression was where the 2E really shined with all those forward firing 0.50 and parafrags/WP bombs. The game doesn't represent this at all. So I guess in my mind, everythings seems to balance out. JOMHO

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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/7/2010 3:50:58 AM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I understand what he means.


My response was to paullus99... I should have quoted him for clarity.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/7/2010 4:07:13 PM   
Canoerebel


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9/17/42 to 9/20/42

We've redone the accidental invasion of New Zealand turn, and now we've put a few turns under our belt.

India in the Air: The Allies won a 2:1 victory in the air over India on the 20th - Japan losing 50 aircraft and the Allies 25. I'm interested in seeing if the sharp little loss over Bombay persuades Brad to rest for a few days.

India at Sea: Two reinforcement convoys are unloading at Karachi.

India on the Ground: More Japanese troops are advancing west (true west) from Benares towards the twin Allied armies at Jalagon and Indore. Two hexes still separate Jalagon from the vanguard of the Japanese army, so I'm not sure if Brad is even coming all the way. The IJ stack includes 54th Division.

India Logistics: Bombay is down to about 35k supplies. I'll have to reopen the road, probably within 40 days or so. I'm probably going to await arrival of the new Indian division and the two Chindit units, set to arrive at Aden in about ten days. Elsewhere, the supply situation is great.

India Plan: When those reinforcements reach India, I can probably create an army of roughly 1,000 to 1,500 AV to push down the coastal road toward Bombay from Surat. This army will be in addition to 2,600 AV at Bombay, 1,200 at Jalagon, 1,000 at Indore, and a rear-guard garrison of about 500 AV at Surat. Brad has about a division posted on this road, plus five divisions at Bombay, about four divisions posted NE of Bombay, and at least one division, probably more like four, moving west from Benares.

KB: No sign of it.

Pacific: Remains quiet at the moment.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/7/2010 4:52:56 PM   
witpqs


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If you do get a relief army to Bombay and they then move into the city using the same hex side the enemy entered via (presumably only one) that would be the AE equivalent of cutting them off Stalingrad style. Your supplies would flow but theirs would not.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/7/2010 4:57:13 PM   
Canoerebel


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Clever idea, but Brad made sure to have units enter Bombay from every surrounding land hex. (He's clever, too.)

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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/8/2010 3:24:37 PM   
Canoerebel


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9/21/42

India on the Ground: The Japanese are definately moving forward from the east, pressing the Allied garrison at Jalagon, which is strongly supported by an Allied garrison at Indore. I'm moving a few more units forward to these two bases. If, as expected, Brad keeps coming, he'll bump into the Americans. The Allies are making their stand at Bombay, Jalagon, Indore, and Surat.

India in the Air: Brad sent fighters against Bombay and bombers plus fighter escorts vs. Surat. The Allies countered with a strike against Goa's airfield. Overall, the Allies came out ahead about 1.25 to 1.

India at Sea: The seas are pretty clear of Allied ships at the moment. Next convoy to Karachi, carrying an armored brigade, should arrive in about six days.

Pacific: Enemy patrol aircraft are more or less regular visitors to Nadi, Baker, Christmas, and Midway. No signs yet of a Japanese move.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 12/8/2010 3:25:13 PM >

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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/8/2010 11:14:33 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

We've all been over this before, but the air war is really skewed terribly.  In my game with Miller, I had to assume that my failure to train pilots skewed things, so I just didn't say much about that aspect of the game.  But now that I'm training pilots religiously, I still have problems out the wazzoo.  Even though the air war has not been particularly hot in our game, there are no RAF fighters or bombers in the pools, no USAAF fighters or bombers, and a dearth of RAF pilots and USAAF bomber pilots.

That seems badly skewed, and all the more when Japan can put Tojos in the air in big numbers early, and has no problem in mid-1942 filling the air with scads of Helens, Sallies, Zeroes, Oscars, and Tojos that have decent pilots.

The Allies do get the 4EB, which are terrific at downing enemy CAP, and which can inflict big damage.  But, unlike the observations made by several IJ players, I can't keep mine in the air and I have limited numbers as of September 1942.

Despite what one poster said, I think Allied 4EB are more than offset by IJ Netties. They pack a powerful punch that the Allied player has to seriously respect out to a range of 10 or 15 hexes. The Allies have nothing like that.

There are other things, too, like flak.

In this game, the Allied "soft defense" strategy has minimized the impact of many of these problems. In fact, only in India, where I don't have enough planes or good pilots, am I even being pressed at the moment. But I can sure see why this state of affairs would be a real problem in games following a more historical pattern.

Finally, I need to point out that I requested Scenario Two and thus have to take what perks it provides Japanese players.  As far as I know, my mutterings are limited to things outside of Scenario Two (i.e., things that apply in every scenario) that don't seem consistent with reality.



Well, welcome to my world. I have been writing about this since the game came out. Against a first class opponent (QBall falls into this catagory) you can expect Japanese control of the skies until mid 1943. But of course, you named your poison.

Two issues to deal with

1. Massive Japanese prodution. He can lose more planes than you and it won't hurt him. In fact I think that the main Japanese aim in 42 should be to attack the Allied airforce at any point on the map that you can. The Allied player simply does not get enough replacments and there is no way to compensate. This has a twofold effect. Not only is the Allied player weak in the air on the front lines with a lot of depleted squadrons but there are no airframes to fill out stateside squadrons thus your training will lag far behind the Japanese pilot training program as squadrons without planes will train, but only very slowly. Allied medium bombers are a no show.

2. The "tojo" gap. This is the best plane in the "game" in 1942 to mid 43 and there is no Allied counter for it except the pitiful few P38s that you get. Using the height advantage this plane will eat any 1st generation fighter up for lunch. Combine that with the ability to turn off production of lesser planes in favor it this plane to produce massive amounts of them and you got problems. Basically, my strategy for fighting them has been to stay out of their range and hunt them on the ground with heavy bombers. The arrival of the hellcat and (godly) P47 make this plane obsolete fast but you gotta wait.

My game is in mid 43 and I am only now feeling like I have parity. I don't really expect real air superiorty until early 44 when I can start to bury him in both quality and numbers.

Bear in mind that my opponent and I agreed to a altitude cap of 29,000 feet. This has helped a bit but if Q-ball is sweeping with his tojos at higher altitudes, then you will suffer.

Also, sad to say but the F4F navy fighter is a very poor fighter in game terms. It is hardly a match for oscars and just gets owned by zeros and tojos. This really makes any carrier fight sort of an adventure.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 12/8/2010 11:20:32 PM >


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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/9/2010 12:52:22 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

1. Massive Japanese prodution. He can lose more planes than you and it won't hurt him. In fact I think that the main Japanese aim in 42 should be to attack the Allied airforce at any point on the map that you can. The Allied player simply does not get enough replacments and there is no way to compensate.


I somewhat agree with your symptoms, but you don't mention the "solution" proposed by Nemo and others--just don't fight him in the air in 1942. Instead of fighting the production system hard-wired in, don't play its game. Play rope-a-dope in 1942. Pull your aircraft back and train with them, and rely on AA to hold static defenses in India, northern Oz (better yet, just let northern Oz fend for itself), and key islands. Don't serve up your Hurricanes and early Spits for nothing but lost VPs. Let him use precious HI to build all the Tojos he wants. He can't eat them in 1944 when you have planes that can spank them.

And bombing in 1942? Please. Why?

CR is engaging in an air war around Bombay that looks in this AAR to be about 1:1 in late 1942, and what's it doing for him except pull down Bombay's supply stocks? What strategic end is being achieved? CAS/interdiction missions aren't powerful enough in the game to justify burning scarce supplies. But Q is smart enough to fight the air war if CR serves up his planes. Why wouldn't he? He has open supply lines, lots of aircraft production, and a tight VP schedule.

Just say no. Don't fight. Run away, hunker down, take the LCU battering, use your AA, and wait it out. It's the only way to turn the tables on Scenario 2.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/9/2010 4:11:08 AM   
cookie monster


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Agreed.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/9/2010 4:22:19 AM   
John 3rd


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Dan,

Have you played out Scen 1 with AE? Is it this bad from the Allied point-of-view from an aerial perspective too?

These might be dumb questions but I've had my head stuck in RA for so long and have only recently begun Scenario 1 in the 2x2 that just collapsed. It seems to me that Scen 2 adds so much more to the Fleet AND Imperial Army that the Allied player is truly in deep kimchi. This is why I've worked RA because only the Imperial Fleet is modified. The army isn't really touched whatsoever.

Sorry for the tangent there. I'm just really curious from the aerial perspective.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/9/2010 6:37:41 AM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

CR is engaging in an air war around Bombay that looks in this AAR to be about 1:1 in late 1942, and what's it doing for him except pull down Bombay's supply stocks? What strategic end is being achieved? CAS/interdiction missions aren't powerful enough in the game to justify burning scarce supplies. But Q is smart enough to fight the air war if CR serves up his planes. Why wouldn't he? He has open supply lines, lots of aircraft production, and a tight VP schedule.

Just say no. Don't fight. Run away, hunker down, take the LCU battering, use your AA, and wait it out. It's the only way to turn the tables on Scenario 2.


There has been a surprisingly non-major air battle going on over Bombay for months now. The Allies have committed two P-38 squadrons consistently, with occasional efforts by British Hurricanes and American P-40s and P-39s.

This campaign is critical for two reasons: (1) without the effective CAP, Bombay long since would be out of supplies; and (2) I'm estimating that the Allies have lost 500 aircraft over Bombay and Japan 750. If so, that represents a net gain to the Allies of (500 x 4) = 2,000 VP less the 750 VP for Japan = 1,250 VP. From an auto victory standpoint, this is significant at this point in the game.

The Battle of Bombay has been the equivalent of the Battle of Britain. Like the real war, the Allies are winning this crucial battle.

John III: I've only played Scenario Two, which gives Japan a big boost in ground units, plus some helpful destroyers, and a helpful boost in pilot experience early in the game. But I *think* the annoying (to me) lack of RAF, USN and USAAF air frames, the paucity of decent pilots for some types of aircraft (USAAF bombers in particular), and the corresponding plenty of Japanese air frames (especially the Tojo and land-based bombers) and pilots is the same in Scenarios Two and One. At least, I don't know why they would be different.

I shudder at the thought of playing another Scenario Two against an experienced, aggressive opponent. It's not India that worries me as much as it is Australia. If an IJN player wants to force the Allies to commit carriers, then invade Oz with ten or fifteen divisions and use the KB to impose a blockade along the southern coast from Perth to Sydney. Done early enough, the Allies might only have the at-start Oz defenders plus perhaps one of the Aussie divisions that arrive at Aden early in the game. The IJ player might be able to halt any reinforcements from the USA. Against 10 or 15 IJ divisions, the equivalent of perhaps three or four divsisions in Oz won't be sufficient to hold the continent. The Allies could well find themselves in a desperate fix. They would almost have to commit the Allied carriers to escort in reinforcements from the USA and/or Capetown (including the reinforcements triggered by IJ moves into SE Oz).

Of course, the Allies might win the resulting carrier battle or otherwise thwart the Japanese, but the odds favor Japan. That's the strategy that most worries me.

In contrast to Oz, India has a larger garrison and reinforcements come from closeby via short hop to Karachi from Aden or Abadan. A Japanese conquest of Socatra and Karachi would probably be lethal to the Allies. Short of Karachi, the conquest of Bombay or Surat might allow Japan to impose a blockade on Karachi, which would almost be as effective as a conquest.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 12/9/2010 6:38:17 AM >

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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/9/2010 9:57:00 AM   
Canoerebel


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9/22/42

India in the Air: The 1.5 to 1 comment in my previous post was accurate this turn, when Allied fighters downed 14 enemy aircraft while suffering a loss of 10. Ahmadebad airfield is 80% to level nine, at which point the Allies can base an unlimited number of aircraft from that field, permitting increased bombing raids. This should be important in the looming campaign north of Bombay.

India on the Ground: The Allies are sending a Marine regiment and another UK brigade to Jalagon, which will bring the total AV there to about 1500. Much of the Indore army will move a hex south to be in position to threaten the flank of the IJA stack advancing toward Jalagon.

Allied Subs: Trigger claimed an xAKL north of Iwo Jima, the first successful Allied sub attack in weeks. I'm getting the occasional hit, but 98% have been duds over the past three months.

SigInt: Reports 21st Division aboard a Maru bound for Rabual. Not long ago, I had SigInt that this division is prepping for Suva. This leads me to believe that the expected move on Suva is at least a few weeks away.

SoPac: 3rd Marine Raiders is aboard a Maru bound from Christmas to Suva. ETA is about five days.

SWPac: Boarding of transports at Melbourne for the Norfolk Island invsion troops commences in two days. D-Day to be around October 6.


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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/9/2010 10:38:28 AM   
paullus99


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Your US/Australian supply lines definitely look like the target - that move would also eliminate (or greatly lessen) your ability to move against Noumea (VPs) anytime soon as well.

I imagine he's trying to determine where he can get enough VPs for autovictory - but at this point, I don't think base-grabbing is going to be enough. He needs to force you to commit your carriers, otherwise, he's just going to be grabbing bases that you can just take back later (or isolate).

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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/9/2010 1:41:32 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

(2) I'm estimating that the Allies have lost 500 aircraft over Bombay and Japan 750. If so, that represents a net gain to the Allies of (500 x 4) = 2,000 VP less the 750 VP for Japan = 1,250 VP. From an auto victory standpoint, this is significant at this point in the game.



I've been up since 0430, so maybe I'm missing something critical here, but how does this math work?

On page 263, Section 17.0, VP math says a plane is one VP for each side, except heavy bombers are 2 VPs. Where are you getting the x4? Was there a change in one of the patches?

As per usual, I can't really get into an interesting discussion of this since I'm reading both sides. I had to clumsily edit down my last post at the last minute to avoid saying something I shouldn't. But, as always, both of you are going to be fascinated to read the others' AAR at the end for the coulda/woulda/shoulda factor. It's been very hard to read both sides.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/9/2010 2:00:35 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

Your US/Australian supply lines definitely look like the target - that move would also eliminate (or greatly lessen) your ability to move against Noumea (VPs) anytime soon as well.

I imagine he's trying to determine where he can get enough VPs for autovictory - but at this point, I don't think base-grabbing is going to be enough. He needs to force you to commit your carriers, otherwise, he's just going to be grabbing bases that you can just take back later (or isolate).

Short of a massive carrier battle or taking Bombay (and destroying the troops there)auto victory is off the table. I don't think he can take Bombay now, at least not without a long siege. Short of going for Hawaii or Bombay, I don't think there is anything left on the board that would call for an absolute commitment of carriers. Even if he goes for Bombay the allies have months to go for something else that would distract the effort. I think any move by the Japanese now has to be to expand or fortify the defensive line for the long game. Suava or the line islands might fit the bill. The allies can probably counter attack those fairly quickly. Their big disadvantage is going to be the lack of enough good aircraft until 1943. Whatever surplus there is seems to bleed away in India. I suspect this will slow the Allies down for quite a while.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/9/2010 2:01:02 PM   
Smeulders

 

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I'm guessing he's talking about the VP needed for the auto-victory, but in that case wouldn't it be the other way around. The allies gain 750vp, meaning the Japanese should gain an additional 3000vp to break-even if they are aiming for auto-victory, but they only get 500, meaning a deficit of 2500vp.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/9/2010 2:10:31 PM   
Canoerebel


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Oops, I switched the numbers around during my calculations of the net effect on auto victory of the air war in and around Bombay. The correct calculations:

I'm estimating that the Allies have lost 500 aircraft over Bombay and Japan 750. If so, for auto victory purposes that represents a net gain to the Allies of (750 points x 4) = 3,000 VP less the 500 VP for Japan = 2,500 VP.

Thus, from an auto victory standpoint, the Allies are plus 2,500 VP due to the air war in India. Since the total spread is Allies plus 5,000 at the moment, half of that is due to the air war in India.


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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/9/2010 2:18:13 PM   
Canoerebel


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Hawaii is off the table for Japan - Pearl Harbor has 1,800 AV. He'd need ten divisions to come ashore in great shape, and there's no way he can get that given (1) the number of divisions he has committed in India, (2) Pearl's forts and CD, and (3) how badly chewed up the Japanese troops would be in landing. Hawaii is safe.

I'm nearly positive Bombay is safe due to (1) the urban terrain, and (2) Brad will need at least ten divisions, probably more like 15, to have a shot against the 2,600 AV garrison. No way he can send that many troops to Bombay. His flank would be exposed and his troops would be threatened with isolation by Allied troops moving in behind.

Strategically, Fiji isn't important to Allied long-term operations. My LOC is already impacted by Brad's control of Noumea. Fiji doesn't add much. But it does offer Brad perhaps a good haul of VP when you total the value of the two bases plus the garrisons. Of course, he should lose some ships to the shore guns, so his net return shouldn't be quite that high.



< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 12/9/2010 2:26:47 PM >

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RE: One Weird Battle - 12/9/2010 2:36:40 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Oops, I switched the numbers around during my calculations of the net effect on auto victory of the air war in and around Bombay. The correct calculations:

I'm estimating that the Allies have lost 500 aircraft over Bombay and Japan 750. If so, for auto victory purposes that represents a net gain to the Allies of (750 points x 4) = 3,000 VP less the 500 VP for Japan = 2,500 VP.

Thus, from an auto victory standpoint, the Allies are plus 2,500 VP due to the air war in India. Since the total spread is Allies plus 5,000 at the moment, half of that is due to the air war in India.




OK, I see the logic now.

However, FOW . . .

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The Moose

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Post #: 1014
RE: One Weird Battle - 12/9/2010 3:10:43 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Oops, I switched the numbers around during my calculations of the net effect on auto victory of the air war in and around Bombay. The correct calculations:

I'm estimating that the Allies have lost 500 aircraft over Bombay and Japan 750. If so, for auto victory purposes that represents a net gain to the Allies of (750 points x 4) = 3,000 VP less the 500 VP for Japan = 2,500 VP.

Thus, from an auto victory standpoint, the Allies are plus 2,500 VP due to the air war in India. Since the total spread is Allies plus 5,000 at the moment, half of that is due to the air war in India.





CR, this is actually a good point and perhaps the only justification for the Allied player to fight hard in the air in 42 and deplete his air force. That is when he suspects that his opponent is striving for auto victory it is wise to trade planes or even lose them at a slight disadvantage. Otherwise, conservation of force is the correct action.

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(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 1015
RE: One Weird Battle - 12/9/2010 3:22:27 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

1. Massive Japanese prodution. He can lose more planes than you and it won't hurt him. In fact I think that the main Japanese aim in 42 should be to attack the Allied airforce at any point on the map that you can. The Allied player simply does not get enough replacments and there is no way to compensate.


I somewhat agree with your symptoms, but you don't mention the "solution" proposed by Nemo and others--just don't fight him in the air in 1942. Instead of fighting the production system hard-wired in, don't play its game. Play rope-a-dope in 1942. Pull your aircraft back and train with them, and rely on AA to hold static defenses in India, northern Oz (better yet, just let northern Oz fend for itself), and key islands. Don't serve up your Hurricanes and early Spits for nothing but lost VPs. Let him use precious HI to build all the Tojos he wants. He can't eat them in 1944 when you have planes that can spank them.

And bombing in 1942? Please. Why?

CR is engaging in an air war around Bombay that looks in this AAR to be about 1:1 in late 1942, and what's it doing for him except pull down Bombay's supply stocks? What strategic end is being achieved? CAS/interdiction missions aren't powerful enough in the game to justify burning scarce supplies. But Q is smart enough to fight the air war if CR serves up his planes. Why wouldn't he? He has open supply lines, lots of aircraft production, and a tight VP schedule.

Just say no. Don't fight. Run away, hunker down, take the LCU battering, use your AA, and wait it out. It's the only way to turn the tables on Scenario 2.


Well, vs an aggressive Japanese opponent there just comes a point where you have to fight and use your air force. Not fighting just conceeds too much. If I am playing Japan and my opponnent does a total Robin then I will strive to take more from him than normal. Sooner or later he is going to have to fight. Australia, Hawaii, Kodiak, Noumea, push him until he fights. Dont get me wrong. I am a big proponent of the rope a dope but the dope has it's counters just as well.




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(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 1016
RE: One Weird Battle - 12/9/2010 4:27:05 PM   
John 3rd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

CR is engaging in an air war around Bombay that looks in this AAR to be about 1:1 in late 1942, and what's it doing for him except pull down Bombay's supply stocks? What strategic end is being achieved? CAS/interdiction missions aren't powerful enough in the game to justify burning scarce supplies. But Q is smart enough to fight the air war if CR serves up his planes. Why wouldn't he? He has open supply lines, lots of aircraft production, and a tight VP schedule.

Just say no. Don't fight. Run away, hunker down, take the LCU battering, use your AA, and wait it out. It's the only way to turn the tables on Scenario 2.


There has been a surprisingly non-major air battle going on over Bombay for months now. The Allies have committed two P-38 squadrons consistently, with occasional efforts by British Hurricanes and American P-40s and P-39s.

This campaign is critical for two reasons: (1) without the effective CAP, Bombay long since would be out of supplies; and (2) I'm estimating that the Allies have lost 500 aircraft over Bombay and Japan 750. If so, that represents a net gain to the Allies of (500 x 4) = 2,000 VP less the 750 VP for Japan = 1,250 VP. From an auto victory standpoint, this is significant at this point in the game.

The Battle of Bombay has been the equivalent of the Battle of Britain. Like the real war, the Allies are winning this crucial battle.

John III: I've only played Scenario Two, which gives Japan a big boost in ground units, plus some helpful destroyers, and a helpful boost in pilot experience early in the game. But I *think* the annoying (to me) lack of RAF, USN and USAAF air frames, the paucity of decent pilots for some types of aircraft (USAAF bombers in particular), and the corresponding plenty of Japanese air frames (especially the Tojo and land-based bombers) and pilots is the same in Scenarios Two and One. At least, I don't know why they would be different.

I shudder at the thought of playing another Scenario Two against an experienced, aggressive opponent. It's not India that worries me as much as it is Australia. If an IJN player wants to force the Allies to commit carriers, then invade Oz with ten or fifteen divisions and use the KB to impose a blockade along the southern coast from Perth to Sydney. Done early enough, the Allies might only have the at-start Oz defenders plus perhaps one of the Aussie divisions that arrive at Aden early in the game. The IJ player might be able to halt any reinforcements from the USA. Against 10 or 15 IJ divisions, the equivalent of perhaps three or four divsisions in Oz won't be sufficient to hold the continent. The Allies could well find themselves in a desperate fix. They would almost have to commit the Allied carriers to escort in reinforcements from the USA and/or Capetown (including the reinforcements triggered by IJ moves into SE Oz).

Of course, the Allies might win the resulting carrier battle or otherwise thwart the Japanese, but the odds favor Japan. That's the strategy that most worries me.

In contrast to Oz, India has a larger garrison and reinforcements come from closeby via short hop to Karachi from Aden or Abadan. A Japanese conquest of Socatra and Karachi would probably be lethal to the Allies. Short of Karachi, the conquest of Bombay or Surat might allow Japan to impose a blockade on Karachi, which would almost be as effective as a conquest.


Thanks for the thoughtful response Dan.

The much larger IJA would scare me too. I wonder if plane production for the Allies will ever truly be addressed within AE? A good Japanese player can really ramp-up production beyond anything the Japanese were able to do in real life. Seems only fair for the Allies to have at least an 'enhanced' production ability to counter the Japanese in Scenario Two at least...

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(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 1017
RE: One Weird Battle - 12/9/2010 5:15:04 PM   
ny59giants


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quote:

The much larger IJA would scare me too. I wonder if plane production for the Allies will ever truly be addressed within AE? A good Japanese player can really ramp-up production beyond anything the Japanese were able to do in real life. Seems only fair for the Allies to have at least an 'enhanced' production ability to counter the Japanese in Scenario Two at least...


Some of Nemo's thoughts for Allied production (AE's version of Empires Ablaze) will be using Port Stanley as the base for most, if not all, of Allied airframe production. It will require significant use of constant CS Convoys of supplies from Eastern USA to Port Stanley to produce and expand production. If is comes out like I think it will, then someone (possibly me), can go in and add this to a modified version of Scenario 2.

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 1018
RE: One Weird Battle - 12/9/2010 6:48:05 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well, vs an aggressive Japanese opponent there just comes a point where you have to fight and use your air force. Not fighting just conceeds too much. If I am playing Japan and my opponnent does a total Robin then I will strive to take more from him than normal. Sooner or later he is going to have to fight. Australia, Hawaii, Kodiak, Noumea, push him until he fights. Dont get me wrong. I am a big proponent of the rope a dope but the dope has it's counters just as well.



Local conditions matter, of course, and the opponent, but in general I'm not advocating not fighting in 1942, just not fighting with air forces as much as possible.

Too few players IMO use naval forces, where the Allies aren't that disadvantaged early, to interdict the Japanese merchant marine as they expand. It needs to be said over and over: warships exist ONLY to influence events ashore. The only time one should fight other warships is when it can't be avoided while executing the primary mission of assassinating the other guy's economy. The Japanese player can't accelerate shipbuilding to any great extent, and he can't create new ships to build. He can build nearly limitless aircraft. Why attack him in the one place Scenario 2 makes him mighty? Every Allied plane shot down is gone forever from a finite pool. I'm just saying don't play his game.

In the instant case of Bombay, CR has a point that anti-VP/anti-autovic air combat might have some mathematical logic. But, in the larger case, Bombay as it is presently being contested didn't have to happen either.

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(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 1019
RE: One Weird Battle - 12/9/2010 7:28:29 PM   
Canoerebel


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Bullwinkle, I don't understand the comment about Bombay. What makes you think I didn't have to fight there, or shouldn't have?

Alot of thought went in the decision to make a stand. Some of the most important factors:

1. If Brad had taken Bombay, he could have based combat ships and/or carriers there, which would have made it much easier for him to impose a tight blockade on Karachi.

2. Strongly garrisoned, Bombay is almost impregnable due to its 4x-urban multiplier. For Brad to take it will require the use of probably 10-15 divisions. He can't do that because it leaves his flank open.

3. Alternatively, Brad can "bypass" Bombay and move to the north and west, but he has to leave behind a strong force to keep the Allied garrison in check (he can't have that 2,600-AV army moving behind him).

4. Bombay has a level-nine airfield - an important attribute in the hands of either army.

5. Had the Allies vacated Bombay, instead withdrawing back behind the "line of death," there aren't any naturally strong defensive positions. The Japanese can basically surround any base or hex short of Karachi. That means, ultimately, the Allies would be faced with withrawing into Karachi, a lonely outpost that would be within easy range of Japanase bombers and fighters. Supply would quickly become a real problem if the IJN closed down access to Karachi. And getting reinforcmeents in would have been nearly impossible.

Honest, this seems like a no-brainer to me. I think my decision not to use my carriers can be questioned. I think my present decision whether to stand and fight northeast of Bombay, or whether to instead pull back, can be questioned. But defending Bombay? No. To withdraw from Bombay would have been Buford and Reynolds at Gettysburg deciding, "Hey, maybe there's better ground to defend further north, like around New York City."

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 12/9/2010 7:30:19 PM >

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
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