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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/28/2011 5:07:45 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Here is a question for you and all other readers. Now with both sides having the ability to rebuild destroyed units, and considering scen #2 and Japanese production, is it just wiser to beat Japanese units and then push them to a spot where they are trapped rather than destroying them outright? As long as a small fragment is left the unit can not be purchased and rebuilt. I have taken some island bases and not yet wiped out the defenders for this reason. Reasoning that even if they ultimately escape the rebuilding of the unit will be delayed and getting them out cost time and resources and risks shipping. And then, my last question is should I consider this gamey and refrain from doing it.

Why can't they just attack you until they're dead? IOW, commit suicide?

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 1/28/2011 5:18:10 PM >

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/28/2011 5:51:37 PM

Canoerebel

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11/7/42

crsutton: That's a very good idea, though I'm not sure the "buy back" rule applies to our game, because I'm not sure Brad and I are patched that far. But, for morale reasons, I've authorized the Supreme Allied Commander to eliminate every Jap unit possible. After the terrible Indian retreat from 3/42 to 9/42, it feels awfully good to punish the enemy.

Poona: Another Allied deliberate attack. This one destroyed 1100 squads with none disrupted. At least three IJA units have vanished. The end will come tomorrow.

Squad Points: That attack elevated the points for destroyed IJ units from 1000 to 1300, thus reducing the IJA lead in that department to less than a 10:1 ratio (bronx cheers fill the auditorium, but I tell ya it feels good!) Byt the tiime the Allies eliminate the stack near Goa, plus 48th Divsion, the points should increase to roughly 2,000.

Neglect? Recon reports 48 Japanese ships at Madras, whose troops have been targeted by Allied 4EB over the past few days. Surely Brad won't leave shipping exposed like that any longer, but on the chance that he's careless, I've ordered a port strike tomorrow.

India as a Whole: No question now that the Allies will hold all of southern, central, northern, and western India by the end of the year. The only question is the NE. Even there, it's possible the Allies will reclaim Calcutta, Chittagong, and the Kalemo/Imphal line within two months. (Brad could certainly make a protracted stand at Calcutta, but I don't think he'll sacrifice the units to do so.)

Waving the Red Flag: Allied carriers have refueled at Tahiti (always a good feeling). They'll move west tomorrow. I'm definately going to use them in SoPac. I'm debating whether using them to cover an in invasion of Noumea, as long planned, or instead to try to give Brad just a whiff of their presence, so he knows they are there. The real purpose in revealing them is to draw the KB to free up CenPac for the invasion of Wake Island. If I do anything that smacks of "feint," I won't achieve the goal. So I'll think about this a bit. This isn't the time, methinks, to sail around near the front lines banging on pots and pans. I need to be either very subtle in "hiding" the carriers around NZ, or very bold in striking Noumea. Neither of those would strike Brad as a feint.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 1/28/2011 5:56:32 PM >

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/28/2011 6:17:50 PM

Canoerebel

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One other word about the idea of not destroying an enemy unit so that your opponent can't rebuild them.

First, you could leave them in a hex by themselves. Then they couldn't commit suicide attacks.

Second, I'm not sure such a move would be fair. If the idea of the game is to permit players to rebuild units, thus eliminating the challenging but sometimes annoying "cadre evacuation" measures, then shouldn't we let the feature work as intended?

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/28/2011 6:49:03 PM

vettim89

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

One other word about the idea of not destroying an enemy unit so that your opponent can't rebuild them.

First, you could leave them in a hex by themselves. Then they couldn't commit suicide attacks.

Second, I'm not sure such a move would be fair. If the idea of the game is to permit players to rebuild units, thus eliminating the challenging but sometimes annoying "cadre evacuation" measures, then shouldn't we let the feature work as intended?

Regardless of the final disposition be it rebuilding by "buy back" or rebuilding from cadre, that unit is still going to drain the device pools. I think the number of units affected by this would be limited for that very reason

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/28/2011 7:08:53 PM

Cribtop

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IMHO leaving stragglers is gamey. It's silly to think that IRL the enemy high command would simply refuse to create a new division organization just because a few companies are lost in Timbuktu.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/28/2011 7:10:53 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

IMHO leaving stragglers is gamey. It's silly to think that IRL the enemy high command would simply refuse to create a new division organization just because a few companies are lost in Timbuktu.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/28/2011 8:46:35 PM

Capt. Harlock

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quote:

IMHO leaving stragglers is gamey.

On the other hand, that appears to be what happened at Iwo Jima. There were as many as 3,000 IJA soldiers still hiding in caves when the island was declared secure. (Although it was declared secure three times before it finally stuck.) The last holdouts didn't surrender for at least four years after V-J day.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/28/2011 9:00:42 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

quote:

IMHO leaving stragglers is gamey.

On the other hand, that appears to be what happened at Iwo Jima. There were as many as 3,000 IJA soldiers still hiding in caves when the island was declared secure. (Although it was declared secure three times before it finally stuck.) The last holdouts didn't surrender for at least four years after V-J day.

Which had nothing to do with the ability of the IJ HQ to form a new unit.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/28/2011 9:12:55 PM

Xxzard

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Agree. If we are being realistic here, we have to accept that the lack of an ability to form new units is a limitation/trait of the game. In real life, the high command could have chosen to remake a cut off or destroyed unit, or create new divisions, or do whatever they wish.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/28/2011 10:28:11 PM

Canoerebel

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11/8/42

Neglect it was: Shame on Brad. He forgot about 48 ships docked at Madras. Three effective strikes by Allied LBA facing no CAP heavily damaged at least 23, including 2 xAP, 19 xAK, 1 E, and 1 PB). I think alot more ships were hit, but I didn't want to compare the three strike reports for duplicates. I think at least ten IJ ships will go under; maybe twenty.

Poona: The Japanese army at Poona evaportated. 54th Division and two brigades of 6th Guards Division vanished. That leaves one-third of 6th Guards to be dealt with just NE of Poona, and then 48th Div. west of Poona.

Goa: Darn it, Brad's mauled army north of Poona got chewed up, but took the optimum route of retreat into Goa, crossing through jungle rather than taking the top-quality road that led south. (Every one of my forced retreats early in the campaign resulted in the least optimum route of retreat against all common sense; Brad has had the opposite luck). Now his remnant troops are at Goa, where Brad will certainly extract portions by air. I've posted two P-38 squadrons for LRCAP, and about 200 Allied AV will attack tomorrow.

Subs: Kingfish got an empty xAK near Diamond Harbor.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/28/2011 11:45:00 PM

Canoerebel

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11/9/42

Goa: 200 Allied AV were more than enough to evict the bedraggled stack at this base. Brad used Thalia's or the like to Dunkirk some of his men, but the flight was intercepted by Lightnings. I don't think he got much. His sad remnants withdrew on the yellow road to the south that leads nowhere. This stack will be corraled and destroyed (or, can he load troops in coastal, non-base hexes using float planes or subs?).

Tricksy Allies: After nailing those ships at Madras, the Allied LBA switched targtes and hit the active IJA airfield at Coconado, destroying 40+ aircraft (mostly Helens and Tojos) on the ground. Now they'll switch back and target the airfield at Madras.

Punishment and Revenge: Per his email, Brad says the India campaign has been a one-dimensional drudge for him. To me, it's been a titanic, challenging, mesmerizing three-dimensional (land, air and sea) campaign. For several weeks now, he's been taking punishment on the ground, in the air, and at sea. He's got to be fit to be tied and ready to lash back. So I hope the long-awaited appearance of the Allied carriers draws the KB forward.

Allied Carriers: Like any good naval commander, I've made sure my ships are fueled and fully armed, that the aircraft squadrons are at maximum strength, that my pilots are well-rested and well-trained, and that these ships - the most important in the Allied navies - are commanded by the most incompetent officers I could find. That's right, ladies and gents. I scoured the officer pool to find officers who are so non-aggressive that they wouldn't cast a second glance at Anne Hathaway in a low-cut, full length, bright red evening gown. These four guys have aggression ratings ranging from 29 to 33. But I guarantee that if my carriers blunder into range of the KB, all four TFs will react against orders (they're set not to) and steam right into an ambush that Ella of Frell could have detected and avoided. Meanwhile, the carriers depart Tahiti tonight, steaming generally WSW towards Wellington.

Marcus/Wake: With hopes that the Japanese will catch wind of the Allied carriers and send the KB thataway, the Marcus and Wake invasion TFs are loading at Pearl and should depart tonight or tomorrow.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 1/28/2011 11:47:22 PM >

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/29/2011 12:18:41 AM

JeffroK

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Punishment and Revenge: Per his email, Brad says the India campaign has been a one-dimensional drudge for him. To me, it's been a titanic, challenging, mesmerizing three-dimensional (land, air and sea) campaign. For several weeks now, he's been taking punishment on the ground, in the air, and at sea. He's got to be fit to be tied and ready to lash back. So I hope the long-awaited appearance of the Allied carriers draws the KB forward.

I hope he's learned from it as he is going to be hit by the steamroller in his other venture.

Mostly his drudge has been his fault, if he decided not to continue in India he could have relocated a reasonable force into other theatres.

I think this game is far from being over, as you are planning, the Allies have to stick their neck out, even a little bit, and he has to be in the mood and location to take the chance when it comes. he should have KB , Netty and plenty of Escorts rested, at full strength and in strategic locations to hit back.

My fear of the Sumatra campaign is you stick your nose into a potential "trap". Malaya/Borneo/Java provides QBall with a firm base and he should have a number of large airbases close in his rear.� Your move into the Noumea area can be supported better by LBA and doesnt have a strong backup for QBall, of course the Sumatra gambit has a far greater potential gain but (edit) THE NOUMEA AXIS does lead into areas which you can reach into the rear areas after a long campaign. Plus always have a small force in the North, an opening might occur which you can use, even as a distraction.

Thats why you get paid the big bucks to make the decisions (You do get paid by Matrix to provide this entertainment dont you????)

< Message edited by JeffK -- 1/29/2011 3:52:18 AM >

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/29/2011 1:31:48 AM

ny59giants

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John and I are each in mid-42 and the discussion on Sumatra has gotten both of us thinking about its defense now rather than wait until '43 to do something. Those islands off the west coast can easily be built up to significant size AFs.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/29/2011 2:51:23 AM

John 3rd

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Hope you don't mind a JFB taking notes and using them against other Allied players??!!

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/29/2011 3:25:08 AM

Cribtop

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Somewhat unfortunate that Brad's mind is elsewhere. He won't get auto-Vic but this could be a very interesting game yet with motivated Japanese play.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/29/2011 3:29:23 AM

John 3rd

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I concur with that thought. His Fleet is intact and he isn't badly crippled with the results in India. Hurt--yes--crippled no.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/29/2011 4:31:28 AM

Canoerebel

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Brad is in wonderful shape in this game. Sure, he's lost a bunch of infantry, but Japan doesn't really require infantry until the Allies have the upper hand at sea and in the air. By the time we reach that point, he'll have rebuilt his army and he'll be as good as new.

Both the Allied air and Japanese air remain fully intact despite the skirmishing in India. And status quo means Japan has a big advantage in this Scenario at this date.

And the IJN is fully intact (as are the Allied navies except for extremely heavy December 7 losses).

Factor that in with his extremely advantageous postion on the map, and you have to wonder how in the world he could be less than satisfied with his performance.

When we started, Brad said he was really looking forward to a good match. I can't think of a more thrilling ride than this has been, so his lack of enthusiasm leaves me perplexed.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/29/2011 9:20:51 AM

stuman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Brad is in wonderful shape in this game. Sure, he's lost a bunch of infantry, but Japan doesn't really require infantry until the Allies have the upper hand at sea and in the air. By the time we reach that point, he'll have rebuilt his army and he'll be as good as new.

Both the Allied air and Japanese air remain fully intact despite the skirmishing in India. And status quo means Japan has a big advantage in this Scenario at this date.

And the IJN is fully intact (as are the Allied navies except for extremely heavy December 7 losses).

Factor that in with his extremely advantageous postion on the map, and you have to wonder how in the world he could be less than satisfied with his performance.

When we started, Brad said he was really looking forward to a good match. I can't think of a more thrilling ride than this has been, so his lack of enthusiasm leaves me perplexed.

It's those sexy Panthers and T-34s !

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/29/2011 2:37:40 PM

d0mbo

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Stuman, are you getting under the WitE spell as well?

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/29/2011 4:25:15 PM

Xxzard

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I'm actually a little surprised he wants to play WITE if he thinks the ground campaign in India is too one dimensional. It seems that problem would only be exacerbated in WITE.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/29/2011 8:42:27 PM

Canoerebel

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11/10/42

A quiet day as Allied forces on critical missions advance over the map.

India: Allied troops are hurrying forward to deal with the three isolated IJA armies. Liquidating attacks will resume as my troops catch up to (or reach) each respective stack.

CenPac: The transport TFs bound for Wake and Marcus departed Pearl last night, accompanied by some support TFs (minelayers, etc.) and some picket ships. The escort carriers and combat ships won't depart for a few more days. Some deception TFs departed to the sotuhwest, and are designed to "appear as blips on radar screens" around Wotje in about a week.

SoPac: Allied carriers departed Tahiti yesterday. Combat TFs, replenishment TFs, and transports are congregating at Auckland. Picket ships are on both sides of New Caledonia, with more on the way. Scouts in the form of small DD TFs will head north from Auckland in a few days. This activity should get Brad's full attention.

The Plan: The combat ships, transports, support ships, troops, and escort carriers are expendable. If I lose them, I'll feel it dearly, but it won't be a calamity. My fleet carrers are not expendable. I cannot risk disaster. The plan is to permit Japan to catch a whiff of them around NZ, along with increasing signs of a move on New Caledonia. If this doesn't draw the KB, I am a poor judge of my opponent and a failure as a commander. The invasion of Wake is the real target. Clearing the KB out of CenPac should permit this to succeed by the use of suprise, overwhelming force, and escort carriers. (Marcus is more remote and easier to take, but I'm not positive I'll go that far.) If I fail in my efforts to draw the KB to SoPac and thus suffer a pounding in CenPac, the Noumea invasion TFs and carriers should then be able to move on New Caledonia in relative safety.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/29/2011 11:37:17 PM

stuman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: d0mbo

Stuman, are you getting under the WitE spell as well?�

No. AE is a full time mistress ( I hope I can finish typing this before my wife walks by

).

I just know what entices some folks to visit the Eastern fron now and again.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/29/2011 11:41:01 PM

Nemo121

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Bah, Panthers might be sexy but who could love something with Micky Mouse ears? BAH!!!

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/30/2011 3:12:08 AM

vicberg

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The lure of WITE is that it's not WITPAE...I've tried it...bizarre combat/movement system...WITPAE is thinking and planning and WITE is action...no wonder....I've played wargames for 30+ years now...WITE isn't a very good game.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/30/2011 4:14:52 PM

pat.casey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

The lure of WITE is that it's not WITPAE...I've tried it...bizarre combat/movement system...WITPAE is thinking and planning and WITE is action...no wonder....I've played wargames for 30+ years now...WITE isn't a very good game.

I actually think WITE is a good game. Its not as good a spectator game as WITP since most of the "interesting" part (the movement/combat) doesn't carry over into an AAR well. It is, however, fun in my experience and, while definately a "big" game its dramatically smaller than WITP in terms of the time commitment.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/30/2011 7:02:41 PM

Canoerebel

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11/11/42

The great deal of buzz about WitE is overwhelmingly positive, so I am assuming it's quite good. It's good for all of us wargamers if Matrix succeeds with strategy game of this sort.

India: The quiet continues as Allied troops move toward three hexes to exterminate the remnants of three IJ armies. The next round of attacks will begin day after tomorrow.

CenPac: I feel good about my plan in CenPac and SoPac at the moment. The Marcus force is proceeding NW on a course that will take her north of Midway. She's the smaller armada and thus can serve as a bit of a scouting party. She will continue well to the west of Midway to a point generally NE of Marcus. The Wake force steamed WSW from Pearl and hasn't gone very far yet. I want to wait until the Marcus group gets further out. I have some picket ships steaming west, too, plus the "mock" invasion TFs making generally for Wotje. No detection level worries anywhere at present.

SoPac: The Allied carriers are well SW of Tahiti; no detection level worries. Brad will notice a bit more ships traffic around Suva, Pago Pago, and Auckland if he's watching those ports. Soon some small transports will arrive at Norfolk Island. Then in less than a week some serious picket ship deployment will take place around and north of New Caledonia. If he catches just that faintest whiff of my carriers around NZ, the plan will have worked as hoped.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/30/2011 7:33:01 PM

witpqs

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I suppose Q-Ball will have picket ships west of Midway?

{FOW notice: I have not read Q-Ball's AAR in several months and have no idea if he ever uses picket ships or not.}

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/30/2011 9:40:46 PM

Canoerebel

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Brad does use picket ships, at least at times. He had them posted around Diego Garcia for months back in early and mid 1942, before taking that island. He was guarding against a sudden Allied carrier raid from Capetown on Ceylon.

He might have picket ships west of Midway; certainly Glens are a threat.

My Marcus forces consists of three transport TFs with no air search, so he probably won't spot that by mere picket ship.

But the main idea is to draw his attention south by revealing the location of my carriers for the first time since December 1941.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/30/2011 9:47:34 PM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

But the main idea is to draw his attention south by revealing the location of my carriers for the first time since December 1941.

So don't give him a glimpse lift the whole skirt up and draw the carriers. then leave.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 1/31/2011 1:00:39 AM

Canoerebel

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11/12/42

JohnD: I think I can accomplish what I need to without risking my carriers. Nothing that I'm doing is worth the chance of a carrier battle defeat. I like where I am right now, but if I lose my carriers I won't. But I will show 'em a bit.

India: The Allies have caught up to 6th Guards Div./C NE of Poona. It should evaporate after a few attacks. The Allies have also caught up to 48th Div., which is untouched except by repeated bombing. It will take awhile to eradicate this unit, but the first probing attack takes place tomorrow. The third Allied army should catch up to the other IJA stack south of Goa tomorrow.

CenPac: Still no signs of detection as the Marcus force steams NW and will be due north of Midway in about three days. The Wake group, lagging behind and south of the Hawaiian chain, will juke NW tonight to a position about three days behind the Marcus group. I haven't sent my combat ships and CVEs out of Pearl, yet, just in case Brad has a Glen watching that port.

SoPac: The Allied carriers are halfway between Tahiti and Auckland. Tomorrow, a PBY unit will airlift part of a base force to Funafuti, which Brad never occupied. He has a unit on the dot hex to the north, for some reason. I hope he'll notice this sudden change.

Email Signals: Brad and I have exchanged a series of email summarizing our thoughts about the India campaign and the Oz deception. It was a helpful, cordial, interesting discussion. He did let slip that he "hasn't seen my carriers since around Christmas" (when Big E stumbled upon a sub near Sydney). I think he said this for a purpose. He might not have seen my carriers yet, but I bet he has some ideas. He also mentioned how hard it is to create deceptions. This is more likely an innocent statement since we were discussing his Oz efforts of early '42, but perhaps he's mulling over things in ways I can't imagine. Things will likely begin to happen in about ten days....or less, possibly, if Brad is outplaying me.

P.S. The noxious thought has occurred: What if Brad doesn't care about lightly defended Noumea at all. What if he'll leave the defense to LBA? What if he's awaiting an appearance of my carriers somewhere distant like that....to then unleash an invasion of Midway Island. And, therefore, what if my Marcus and/or Wake TFs walk right into his invasion TF? Ah....the uncertainties and fears that come from playing a taut match.

Auto-Victory: The Japanese spread has fallen under 3:1 now. That could change quickly if we have some big naval clashes, but with India changing hands over the next few months, it's pretty apparent that an IJ auto victory in 1944 [3:1 ratio needed] isn't a realistic possibility. I recall a few posts by others earlier in the game seriously questioning the Allied strategy and suggesting that '44 might be on the table even if '43 is not. I felt pretty sure that early '43 was the only date in play, and now I'm certain.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 1/31/2011 1:02:03 AM >

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