RE: Bid Thee Return

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: Bid Thee Return

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: Bid Thee Return

Page: << < prev 52 53 [54] 55 56 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/5/2011 12:35:00 PM

JohnDillworth

Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline

quote:

I'm just seeing a local trend. It isn't continental drift--yet--but it's a trend. I know most of us don't want to think of a time when AE is dead and buried along with this forum, but it's inevitable. What were you playing 15 years ago? I haven't visited a "Wing Commnader" forum in awhile.

I was a regular in the Jutland forums until the day I started to play this. I guess all good things come to an end. I suspect this will be around for a bit though.

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to vettim89)

Post #: 1591

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/5/2011 1:50:51 PM

vettim89

Posts: 3615
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Toledo, Ohio
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

I'm just seeing a local trend. It isn't continental drift--yet--but it's a trend. I know most of us don't want to think of a time when AE is dead and buried along with this forum, but it's inevitable. What were you playing 15 years ago? I haven't visited a "Wing Commnader" forum in awhile.

I was a regular in the Jutland forums until the day I started to play this. I guess all good things come to an end. I suspect this will be around for a bit though.

When I first reading this, I thought, "No that couldn't be true; afterall, AE is just barely a year old". Then I coonsidered that while that is true, most PC games do not have a life span of more than eighteen to twenty-four months. Even though AE is a new release the system itself is aging. At its core is the same GG system that UV was built on. Certainly Matrix has done a great job keeping the games updated and fresh, but the truth is that some of the warts UV had are still present on AE. Many of the combat systems work just fine, but the hard core historians among us know that some of them are highly abstracted and not very realistic. I am not complaining her just pointing out that AE is far from a perfect game. In fairness to Matrix, the costs in changing a really good game into a perfect game are probably beyond anyone's means.
People joke about WiTP 2, but we know that isn't going to happen. The necessary programmer investment would probably make the game cost over $200. There are just too few of us hard core grognards with interest in such a monster game.

At the risk of speaking sacrilege, maybe AE is too much. Maybe there is a line where the depth of detail becomes more than most people want to deal with and AE crossed that.

_____________________________

"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry

(in reply to JohnDillworth)

Post #: 1592

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/5/2011 2:37:16 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

11/18/42

Once again I must interrupt the New and Improved Eclectic Thread to post about the war, but I will add a few comments at the end:

Wake Island: The Wake invasion force is just nine hexes away. No signs of detection. I'm hoping the transports will steam far enough to permit D-Day the day after tomorrow; if not, though, it will be two days after tomorrow (since I'm using xAK, xAP, and AP, I've got to make sure I land the maximum amount the first day). The bombardment TF should go in day after tomorrow no matter what. The CVEs are trailing somewhat as I am counting on speed and surprise to get me to Wake, then I'll risk the CVEs to provide some CAP for a day or two. If I achieve surprise and also take Wake as planned, I will extract ships as quickly as possible. If I'm blundering into an ambush...well....

Marcus Island: The TFs are probably four days out. No signs of detection. I'm still evaluating this operation on the fly. I have little at risk, so I'm leaning towards "go" if the Wake invasion succeeds.

Wotje: The empty transport TF should arrive within five or six hexes of Wotje tomorrow. No signs of detection.

Noumea: I have flankers out all over the place, pretty much sandwiching New Caledonia and the New Hebrides. No signs of enemy ships except subs. A sudden boost in aircraft at Luganville is promising since I'm hoping to draw Brad's attention here. Shipping at Norfolk Island was detected, but not the main armada (NNE of Auckland) nor any of the picket ships. B-17s from Nadi and Suva to hit Noumea tomorrow. I am very nervous about an ambush, but think I've put out enough pickets to handle matters (***fingers crossed***).

Oz: The vanguard armored unit will reach the hex SW of Daly Waters as soon as tomorrow. This should alert Brad (if he's even looking at the map these days) that something's up in Oz. The infantry and base forces are two hexes E of Daly Waters and should reach the adjacent hex in about two days.

India: The Allies took a vacant base in the south (Bellary) and evicted a naval guard unit from a base in the northeast. Recon of Trincomalee and Calcutta begin tomorrow. South India is totally vacant except for the two remaining isolated IJA stacks. Not sure about Ceylon, but I think Brad has vacated as he won't want to risk shipping under what will soon be a very stout Allied air umbrella. I suspect Calcutta and region have been or will be vacated. Another vanguard Allied armored unit just corssed the big river (Ganges?) east of Calcutta and will sniff defenses around Dacca in a day or two. The collapse of the Japanese in India was sudden and total. Brad did a good job of extracting most of his army, but what a remarkable turn of events.

AE and WitE: AE is waxing old and does suffer from some warts that suggest it won't have an unlimited shelf life. But it is a magnificent game that I think will outlast WitE. I also believe somebody somewhere will come up with a Pacific War game that will improve on AE at some point. In societies where people are free and rewarded for innovation, they will follow their interests in doing cool stuff. I expect Matrix or some of its folks to undertake a "from the ground up" version of Pacific War once they are satisfied that AE has run out of gas. There is no way that AE is the end of the line.

(in reply to vettim89)

Post #: 1593

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/5/2011 4:39:28 PM

vettim89

Posts: 3615
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Toledo, Ohio
Status: offline

Very surprising on the detection levels here. Perhaps he only has shorter range float planes on Wake and Marcus. A little more surprised there aren't some LR a/c searching south of New Caledonia

_____________________________

"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 1594

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/5/2011 5:03:28 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

I'm just seeing a local trend. It isn't continental drift--yet--but it's a trend. I know most of us don't want to think of a time when AE is dead and buried along with this forum, but it's inevitable. What were you playing 15 years ago? I haven't visited a "Wing Commnader" forum in awhile.

I was a regular in the Jutland forums until the day I started to play this. I guess all good things come to an end. I suspect this will be around for a bit though.

When I first reading this, I thought, "No that couldn't be true; afterall, AE is just barely a year old". Then I coonsidered that while that is true, most PC games do not have a life span of more than eighteen to twenty-four months. Even though AE is a new release the system itself is aging. At its core is the same GG system that UV was built on. Certainly Matrix has done a great job keeping the games updated and fresh, but the truth is that some of the warts UV had are still present on AE. Many of the combat systems work just fine, but the hard core historians among us know that some of them are highly abstracted and not very realistic. I am not complaining her just pointing out that AE is far from a perfect game. In fairness to Matrix, the costs in changing a really good game into a perfect game are probably beyond anyone's means.
People joke about WiTP 2, but we know that isn't going to happen. The necessary programmer investment would probably make the game cost over $200. There are just too few of us hard core grognards with interest in such a monster game.

At the risk of speaking sacrilege, maybe AE is too much. Maybe there is a line where the depth of detail becomes more than most people want to deal with and AE crossed that.

Well, you have a good point. The time I need to devote to my two campaigns has pretty much thrown all of my other computer wargaming out of the window. I am addicted to the game but resent the demands of it. Then a shiney new product come out such as WITE and then many players are torn between the time needed to play their current commitments to the attraction of a promising new game. WITE looks good but I have not bought it because I just don't want to sacrifice AE time and I know it would. QBall is a good example but who's to blame him.

Computer wargaming has always been this way. You get a loyal following for a great game until the next new (and admittedly usually better) game comes out and a goodly portion of players just dissapear in mid game took take up the grail for the new game. It happens all the time.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to vettim89)

Post #: 1595

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/5/2011 7:29:34 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

It's mostly turkeys here in Minnesota, Mr. Moose.

So, Chickenboy is semantically better than Turkeyboy?

The World Wonders.
(And without horses there'd be no Mr. Ed, and what a world would that be, Wilbur?)

Turkey trot past the water

I knew someone in this crowd would get it.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 2/5/2011 7:44:18 PM >

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to vettim89)

Post #: 1596

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/5/2011 7:31:32 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

I'm nine hexes from Wake Island...and my opponent has been in the WitE threads all day, posting to his AAR and, I assume, playing the game. Not a peep out of him - no turns, no "hey, I can't do one today." Just silence.

I won't contact him today as I've been riding him pretty hard, but this is agonizing.

I just hope his non-interest is a reliable indicator that he doesn't know what's coming.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 1597

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/5/2011 7:40:26 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

At the risk of speaking sacrilege, maybe AE is too much. Maybe there is a line where the depth of detail becomes more than most people want to deal with and AE crossed that.

I've been think along these lines too, as I try to stand in Matrix management's shoes. One reason I'm watching WitE very carefully, as I'm sure they are.

I would predict right now that there WILL be a WITP2. I predict it will be done by a paid team, from a clean chassis. Windows API, etc.

I also predict it will have one-week turns, no pilot training, resolutions not to the squad, bullet, shell, torpedo level. It will have more political elements, produciton planning by both sides, a powerful editor, and a new AI system built around a hybrid script and analytical engine using multi-core threading. It will have about the same level of graphics, perhaps a few more combat anims, better sound, but less number crunching by the player.

Did I mention one-week turns? A whole different experience for PBEM. Still a significant time investment, but whole games possible in a single summer or winter life-phase. Planning will be by campaign rather than individual ship and LCU. Base and aviation support will be more abstract.

I don't think there will ever be another Matrix game with AE's scope, granularirty, and grognard attention to device details. But there will be another PTO-wide mega-game, and I predict that will happen by 2018. Price point will be around $99.99 USD.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 2/5/2011 7:45:31 PM >

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to vettim89)

Post #: 1598

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/5/2011 7:56:22 PM

Capt. Harlock

Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline

quote:

Perhaps there is a way to manipulate the base point system to change that parameter. Basically the Japanese player's only hope for victory is to either A. win a huge naval victory and/or B. seize significant territory beyond what was accomplished historically. I am saying why not alter the base points so that the Japanese player comes dangerously close to Autovictory by merely achieving the RL expansion. Then just a couple of major grabs outside of that famous red shaded map we have all seen = a win. If this was done correctly, the threat would continue all the way to the end of the war by making the central bases like the Marianas and PI worth oodles of points and far outposts worth very little. The trick would be to make it attainable but far from automatic. In my mind a game where the Japan player doesn't have to conquer all of India or Australia or take PH to have any hope of winning is a better game.

I have argued on several occasions that there is one and only one realistic way for the Japanese to win -- by *not* doing the Pearl Harbor raid. Instead, on the first turn, they should invade bases belonging to the Dutch East Indies only. (The idea being that they have permission from the occupied Dutch government, courtesy of the alliance with Germany.) America and Britain would then declare war on Japan, allowing the Japanese to argue that the Allies are the aggressors. This would have greatly reduced both the speed and the scale of mobilization politically possible to the USA. (During the war, America was for all practical purposes a centrally-directed socialist economy.) And the Japanese would still have strategic surprise: the eight Pearl battlewagons were too slow to be useful to stop the Japanese advance.

Anyone willing to generate that scenario?

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to vettim89)

Post #: 1599

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/7/2011 2:42:31 AM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

11/19/42

CenPac: Wow, still quiet in CenPac. The Wake invasion force is two hexes away and goes in tomorrow. No sign of any detection by the enemy. The invasion begins with bombardment led by BB South Dakota. Three CVE will take station two hexes NW. One DD will take station two hexes south. The transports are close enough to arrive and get a full day of unloading, so now the only question is whether I have enough and can unloading them quickly enough to take the base. I have 500+ AV, though not all will come ashore on the first day even though I've used a fair number of AP and APD in addition to xAP. To the NW, the Marcus group is sailing quietly and apparently undetected, just fifteen hexes from that base. Tomorrow should be an exciting day.

Noumea: I'm pulling back my carriers a few hexes towards the northern cape of New Zealand while monitoring the events in CenPac. If the KB shows up far away from SoPac, I'll proceed with the invasion. Flankers and picket ships are all over the place with no apparent detection. B-17s hit Noumea's airfield in solid numbers. I'm not positive, but I think Brad is focusing on this region as the chief threat.

Oz: The infantry and base forces will arrive a hex from Daly Waters tomorrow or the day after. At that point, the armored unit will move between Daly Waters and Katherine. I don't have enough supply to really threaten the Japanese here, but I want to rattle my saber and appear ominious.

India: The Allies reclaimed Hyderabad and another vacant base. The fullscale Japanese retreat continues.

I can't wait to see what happens tomorrow, but I will probalby have to wait at least 24 hours, maybe 36, if my opponent keeps up his new-and-improved WitE schedule. :(

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)

Post #: 1600

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/7/2011 3:02:43 AM

bradfordkay

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline

Dan... what CVEs are you using for this Wake invasion? My game with Chez is at 10-22-42 and the only CVEs I have so far are all loaded with VR squadrons (as are the two due this week).

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 1601

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/7/2011 3:17:07 AM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

I'm using Long Island and two other CVE from which I stripped the dive bombers, leaving just 28-fighters apiece. The two 28-fighter squadrons are set to 10% CAP and 60% LRCAP. Long Island is set to 70% CAP. All squadrons are fresh and rested, so this will be fine for the short time I will have them in place (or the short time they have left on the surface of the sea if Brad is ready for me). The pilots are decent, though by no means remarkable.

Two other CVEs are trailing back about 18 hexes. I will withdraw them, perhaps as soon as tomorrow.

(in reply to bradfordkay)

Post #: 1602

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/7/2011 2:52:48 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

Waiting for a this turn is agonizing. Brad sent just one turn over the weekend. He lives and breathes War in the East. He's over in those forums right now, immersed in his German offensive in Russia in late summer 1941, oblivious to the fact that the AE turn in his inbox features the Allied invasion of Wake Island.

I have some hope that this sudden increase in Allied aggession will revive his interest in the game. A few weeks ago I thought he had become revived when he resumed posting in his AAR after a two-month hiatus. But that flurry of postings came to a quick halt.

This is driving me nuts!

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 1603

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/8/2011 12:44:44 AM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

11/20/42

Wake Island: Everything went pefectly, but the attack failed due to lack of supply. The attack achieved surprise, nearly all troops came ashore in great shape, the Japs got beat up pretty good, and I had 700 AV to just 100 for Japan. But the attack came off at 1:5 because of lack of supply due to overstacking. There is not one Allied supply point left on the island. (I don't see how you can possibly land enough supply to take an atoll given what I've just seen). It's going to be hard to disengage, and it's going to be hard to pull an inside straight, but here's what I'm doing:

1. All transports carrying ships will halt and return to Midway (to prevent another shock attack).
2. All thips with just supplies will unload.
3. Some empty transports will load troops and skedaddle.
4. As other ships unload tomorrow, they'll try to lift off enough troops to give me a chance at an attack with supplied troops in two or three days.
5. My bombardment TF will depart tonight.
6. My CVE will hang around one more day.
7. It is likely that Brad will reinforce by air so that my attack is not going to succeed.

This will probably get messy, which isn't good, but it should at least telegraph to Brad that the Allies are serious about CenPac.

I recall now reading a thread about an IJ player suffering something just like this invading Midway, but I didn't learn from his experience well enough. But I've learned from my own.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 1604

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/8/2011 1:23:40 AM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I recall now reading a thread about an IJ player suffering something just like this invading Midway, but I didn't learn from his experience well enough. But I've learned from my own.

I feel your pain.

I don't know if there were patch changes on unloading speed, etc., but I had something very similar happen at Canton I. in mid-1942. Granted I had xAKs and xAPs, and little bombardment prep, but I had what I thought, and what should have been from actual observation, enough AV to overwhelm the garrison. I didn't.

As I do more atoll invasions I think the key is to hit a sweet spot on day one. Get enough AV ashore to survive the shock attack, but no more. Not enough to be un-feedable in the next days. Then stand the rest of the transports a hex off, and land nothing but supply for a day or two, with no attacks from your side. When you've recovered some disruption and have organic supply in the LCUs, try a non-shock with what you have ashore if you think it'll live. (Some robust engineers on Day 1 is a good idea if possible.) If not, land some more and do a combined shock attack with newbies and oldbies combined.

All of this works, but it takes time and thus air cover. You can't rush up and smash an atoll in a day. But then, you couldn't in RL either.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 2/8/2011 1:24:56 AM >

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 1605

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/8/2011 2:03:21 AM

Capt. Harlock

Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline

quote:

Wake Island: Everything went pefectly, but the attack failed due to lack of supply. The attack achieved surprise, nearly all troops came ashore in great shape, the Japs got beat up pretty good, and I had 700 AV to just 100 for Japan. But the attack came off at 1:5 because of lack of supply due to overstacking.

Is there anything you can do to prevent this during the Marcus invasion?

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 1606

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/8/2011 2:53:33 AM

Cribtop

Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline

Ouch. Perhaps higher prep points and maybe some test scenarios to determine where the sweet spot is is in order.

_____________________________

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)

Post #: 1607

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/8/2011 3:05:54 AM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Ouch. Perhaps higher prep points and maybe some test scenarios to determine where the sweet spot is is in order.

Part of that is geting in recon. If the invasion is a bolt-from-the-sea without prep it's hard to do at a distance. Pre-invasion bombardment is a good source of intel.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Cribtop)

Post #: 1608

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/8/2011 3:14:38 AM

Cribtop

Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline

True enough. I guess that's why the USN moved in with overwhelming force and pounded defenders for days before an invasion. In fact, as CR points out, this may be a way to impose a more realistic time table on both sides.

That said, and this also goes to timeframe, however many troops you bring to the party you will want to make sure they are as close to fully prepped as conditions will allow.

_____________________________

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 1609

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/8/2011 3:25:14 AM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

True enough. I guess that's why the USN moved in with overwhelming force and pounded defenders for days before an invasion. In fact, as CR points out, this may be a way to impose a more realistic time table on both sides.

That said, and this also goes to timeframe, however many troops you bring to the party you will want to make sure they are as close to fully prepped as conditions will allow.

The USN also had subs and UDTs for recon.

Prep points are to me the main slow-down mechanism in the game. In some cases, like Saipan, "prep" was largely done on the way, on the deck with the troops clustered around map boards. The pace of invasions in 1944 was fast and furious across CentPac. Weeks, not months in many cases.

The devs said in the early days of AE that they always intended that invasions be combined arms and not bolt-from-the-sea. Getting too far ahead of a line--as CR is somewhat doing at Wake and Marcus without first dealing at all with the Marshalls or Gilberts--is supposed to be risky.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Cribtop)

Post #: 1610

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/8/2011 3:41:13 AM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

This may have been my best planned and executed invasion ever. Consider this:

1. Complete strategic and tactical suprise is achieved (through luck or the diversion in SoPac).
2. Every one of my units was 100% prepped for Wake.
3. I had overwhelming force (700 AV vs. 100 AV) plus great force composition - HQ, combat engineers, arty, tanks, CD, and lots of infantry.
4. I was close enough to Wake so that essentially all troops came ashore on the first day.
5. Disruption was negligible (from 3 points to 20 points) due to the prep and to the fact that my troops were aboard ship only a short time).
6. The pre-invasion bombardment followed by the auto Jap bombardment attack decimated the IJ defenders (two Naval Guard units, one of whose AV's dropped to zero by the time my guys attacked; the other dropped to about 30).
7. I had lots of xAKs and AKs with supplies only that unloaded on D-Day.

I did just about everything perfectly, but I failed miserably due to the immense supply-sucking power of the garrison limit. As a result of that thing - that little but big thing - I don't take the island and Brad will stock up the airfield and I'll lose some ships.

Had the island fallen, my Marcus invasion would have gone in day after tomorrow and almost certainly would have succeeded. But I'm withdrawing it - no use in taking Marcus if I don't have Wake.

Despite this, some good things come from this:

1. This was a great lesson to learn, especially since I only committed forces I can afford to lose (even though I don't want to, naturally). Had the invasion run into the KB or other mayhem, I wouldn't have known how tough an atoll invasion actually is, so I would have learned that later and probably at much higher expense and graver results.

2. I will re-orient my forces. I'm not going to spend any more time worrying about occupied atolls for the foreseeable future. So my Marcus, Tarawa, and surviving Wake forces will prep for some other destination.

3. I will really beef up my feint towards the Kuriles in 1943 before hitting Sumatra. Having an invasion go in with totaly strategic and tactical surprise is wonderful.

4. The use of BB South Dakota, CVEs and other major assets in CenPac will make a beneficial impression on Brad that the Allies are serious here, which in turn should help with creating feints in CenPac and NoPac prior to Sumatra.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 2/8/2011 3:59:19 AM >

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 1611

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/8/2011 4:25:10 AM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

11/21/42

Brad sent me the combat report for this turn, so I know more about what D+1 brought:

1. No air attacks by IJ LBA from Wake. I can only assume that Brad thinks Wake is a feint. Unless I see something that changes my mind tomorrow, the Allies will withdraw the CVE TF. If that gets away unscathed, I have no reason to moan.

2. As hoped, there wasn't an Allied attack today (meaning my effort to halt any further landings worked). Also, my transports got out about 250 extra AV.

3. I hope that when I issue orders for the turn of 11/22, I can use some empty APs to extract enough troops to get close to the garrison limit. I hate risking my APs any longer, but I will do so (Brad may be a little reluctant to send in ships if he doesn't know where my carriers are).

4. No sign of Brad reinforcing his garrison by air.

5. I have diverted some of the Marcus supply ships to Wake, so there is still a chance the Allies can get Wake's troops supplied. IE, there is still a small chance of pulling an inside straight here.

6. If Brad sends combat ships, carriers, or LBA to Wake, I have no chance of pulling an inside straight. If he tarries three or four days, I do...and there's a chance that might happen if he thinks this is a feint or if he thinks my carriers are around (though in the latter case he would load up Wake's airfield to get a "free shot" at them).

This was a good turn for the Allies.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 1612

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/8/2011 4:55:56 AM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

Some game mechanics points that I and others have discovered the hard way:

Combat comes before supply penalty is applied. If you didn't have enough supply for combat on the first turn, you didn't land enough supply.
Supply penalty comes before you get to see the turn, so you will never get to see how much supply was present for combat.
If you are greatly over stacked, the troops can only use (for combat) the supplies that you land during that turn, because all the supply will be removed (by the penalty) at/near the end of the turn.
Unless you are very certain of yourself, be sure to cancel the Shock Attack orders after the landing is complete.
When you have time (might not apply here), a good technique is to load up the excess units, selecting the most beat up ones. Leave behind the combat unit(s) (perhaps a regiment on a 6,000 size island) that is in the best shape.
When you have loaded up troops and are below/very close to the stacking limit, supplying the unit(s) will be possible.
Let the unit(s) ashore recover from both Fatigue and Disruption before attacking again.
Use deliberate attacks after the initial mandatory shock attacks. With a unit(s) that has recovered from Fatigue and Disruption and is well supplied, these will usually be sufficient but more than one might be required.

I know you said you had lots of cargo ships that unloaded supply on day 1. I really don't know what happened to that. Did you actually see a Supply(-) in the combat report? Another possible cause is that you are still in 1942 and the ships available for landing an assault really stink. I'll bet that the troops had significant disruption and maybe fatigue too. If they were not prepped 100% (which I know they were) then it would have been even worse. {OK - I see you say Disruption 3 to 20. 3 doesn't matter, but 20 does matter in my experience. You still had a big force, though!}

One thing that comes to mind is that Michael has changed how unloaded supplies are handled and I think it's due in the patch. In the current release, all or almost all the unloaded supplies go to one unit and they are stingy about sharing them with their companions.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 1613

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/8/2011 5:08:17 AM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

Thanks, witpqs. I have followed most of these guidelines in issuing orders for the turn now in progress. I've already extracted most of the HQ unit and also the only infantry that was beat up badly (2nd Marines). I'll have more empty ships tomorrow, so I will extract more (assuming an enemy force doesn't sink my ships in the meantime). Given two or three days I can get down to the garrison limit, but whether I'll be able to land supplies thereafter is uncertain. Brad should impose a tight blockade by that late date and might transport in reinforcements of his own. I rate the chances of success now no more than 15%, but that's enough to give it a shot.

What I think is fairly likely and amazing is that I may be able to extract most of my ships and a decent number of troops without incurring major losses. That would be a surprising end to a FUBAR situation.

This was a lesson worth learning.

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 1614

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/8/2011 5:11:02 AM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

And this taught me that Bullwinkle, Chickenboy, etc. are right - there is no way Brad would invade Midway at this point. While I still contend it is useful from a military standpoint, there is no way he would move against 200 AV strongly entrenched on an atoll.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 1615

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/8/2011 6:05:59 AM

JeffroK

Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline

I would have taken more troops, you can afford to suffer some supply based losses, getting through these outlying atolls (Wake, Makin, Tarawa etc)is a matter of numbers and you have to break through the atolls to get to the islands.

I would also persevere, he is suffering just as much as you and a Dieppe style raid isnt going to capture bases.

He may have been just about to collapse.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 1616

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/8/2011 12:46:16 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

This may have been my best planned and executed invasion ever. Consider this:

Please don't take it that I'm saying you did something wrong. I'm sure you were very careful and methodical. But the game's small island supply mechanism is there in part, I think, to avoid wholesale Allied romping before the dedicated amphibs arrive in larger numbers in 1943. The key to unloading supply, even on D-Day as you did, lies in not having to use xAKs. Supply must absolutely gush ashore, not just flow ashore as the best xAKs can do.

Also, surprise in the game is really only possible at the strategic level. IOW, he didn't have time to get more/better forces to the island. In game terms tactical surprise isn't possible. LCUs are either on Combat or they aren't. If they are, and front-line units are left in that Op Mode all the time, there are no RL penalties for sleep, boredom, sickness, lack of refresher training time, equipment maintenance downtime, etc. In RL an invasion could be over the horizon and landing in two hours under ideal conditions. It was possible to catch a low-recon island napping. In the game it's a binary state. Either they're in a (morale adjusted) state of Combat, or they aren't. Which I supppose by design makes pre-landing preparations even more important in the game, as extending disruption is the only good way the invader has to simulate RL conditions.

Edit: posted before I saw witpqs's post.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 2/8/2011 12:51:15 PM >

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 1617

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/8/2011 12:54:54 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

I'm pretty sure I could have had another 30 supply xAK along and still had no supply, so I don't think the solution to the problem is to bring more troops.

The solution to the problem probably is to refrain from invading occupied atolls before you have plenty of LST, APA, AK, etc. I get the feeling that invading occupied atolls is about the same as invading occupied Artcic island during winter. A little defense can hold off a vast army.

But I'm fairly happy with all of this. The primary objective was to sneak up on my opponent and goose him good. That was accomplished. He'll pay more attention to this region. If I can get most of my ships out now, I'll be totally satisfied. And I haven't given up on the chance of taking Wake. I'm still working on that, though I don't think it's going to happen.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 1618

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/8/2011 12:55:24 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

And this taught me that Bullwinkle, Chickenboy, etc. are right - there is no way Brad would invade Midway at this point. While I still contend it is useful from a military standpoint, there is no way he would move against 200 AV strongly entrenched on an atoll.

Small island mechanics make fortification levels gold for the defender. I've gone up aginst Forts 5 just a couple of times and they're nearly impossible to budge with a 6000 limit. Hard to build, yes, but really hard to budge, at least in mid-war. Later on when the device mix changes (flamethrowers!) they might be easier. (Thinking about it, flamethrowers are probably only anti-soft devices anyway.)

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 1619

RE: Bid Thee Return - 2/8/2011 12:57:29 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

One thing that comes to mind is that Michael has changed how unloaded supplies are handled and I think it's due in the patch. In the current release, all or almost all the unloaded supplies go to one unit and they are stingy about sharing them with their companions.

This one is a killer now, as the Big Unit getting all the groceries is usually your king infantry unit. Which is good, except when the engineers get starved, decimated, and killed, leaving Forts intact.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 1620