RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 6:51:08 PM

Q-Ball

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This is a good debate, and Bullwinkle does make some good point. A few thoughts:

1. The total Light Industry beyond the Trigger Line in India is exactly 500; not enough to launch offensive operations, but enough to keep 10 divisions from dropping dead of hunger. This assumes I keep KB posted without interruption for several months off Karachi. No, starving them out is impossible.

I have observed supply convoys transiting to Karachi, so pretty sure he's shipped some in already, while I had KB in the Bay of Bengal covering those landings.

2. Can I conquer the place? It may be remotely possible, IF I continue to commit troops, and IF I make sure KB is posted off Karachi after I cross the Trigger Line. However, 2-3 of those Divisions appear in Karachi IIRC, so he will get immediate reinforcement, not to mention a shot of the arm into the replacement pool. He pulled fragments for all those units I destroyed, which means they will rebuild much quicker after I cross the Trigger Line.

At this point, even if I use ships to land on the coast, it will take a minimum of 2 months with little resistance, because of the great travel distances to the interior.

3. Withdrawl isn't a big problem shipping-wise; despite the massive commitment to India, I am ahead in shipping fuel-resources to the Home Islands. No problems. Part of what helps is that it's a short trip to Singapore from India, compared to the Central Pacific.

It is frustrating that Dan will run and not allow me to deliver a knock-out punch. Do I have regrets? Should I have gone somewhere else, perhaps?

AUSTRALIA I would like to try; it was between India and Oz. Oz is easier to isolate than India. The reason I decided against was that I would have been in constant fear of the British Army on my flank, as other AARs have shown they can steamroll SE Asia. I might give it a go in another PBEM sometime.

HAWAII doesn't give you many VPs if you are going for auto-victory. That, and you lose a vast pile of AKs making the landing on Pearl Harbor, which would require at least 6-8 Divisions on that one spot. And the shipping commitment is much worse than India.

CENT/SOUTH PAC is not interesting to me. New Zealand is way down there and doesn't return much to Japan, and Fiji and Pago Pago are just points; that, and a longer perimeter. No thanks!

Going for all of India is very risky. If it wasn't for that 6-Division trigger....why not? But giving the Allies 6 divisions wipes out all LCU gains and then some.

Combat Report, May 8-9, 1942:

Calcutta: I had 2 Divisions march from Diamond Harbor to Calcutta. The map does not show a river there, but they shock attacked into Calcutta anyway, where the enemy had 20 units (!). Thankfully, the units are mostly AA and weak units, so the attack was 1-2 and casualties fairly light all around.

The following day, the unit count was 15, so he is moving out. When it gets down below 10, and I recover a bit, I will attack again, and that should take Calcutta.

Madras: CR pulled out of Salem toward Madras. I have already, though, cut the raillines to Madras, so I think the 20th Indian Div will either have to withdraw to Madras, or retreat overland over a long, long way. I would like to cut-off and destroy that unit.

Once Madras and Calcutta fall, THEN I have to make a decision on PHASE III. What to do next?

My options:

1. KEEP GOING IN INDIA

2. INVADE West Australia: This would attract US Army troops no doubt, but taking Perth would really keep the USN out of the Indian Ocean.

3. INVADE NORTHEAST OZ: I evacuated Cooktown, but coming back with several divisions would change the tune

4. FIJI

5. MIDWAY

6. ALEUTIANS

7. RAID: PEARL HARBOR REDUX, Perhaps? If I am really lucky, the USN CVs are sitting there.

I would prefer a target that will bring out the US Fleet. That is most likely Midway, though that island isn't worth much in terms of points, or really anything other than an irritating base.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 7:16:50 PM

John 3rd

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I would prefer a target that will bring out the US Fleet. That is most likely Midway, though that island isn't worth much in terms of points, or really anything other than an irritating base.

This just put the image of burning Japanese CVs into my mind! My initial reaction to Midway...

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 7:22:53 PM

ny59giants

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quote:

2. INVADE West Australia: This would attract US Army troops no doubt, but taking Perth would really keep the USN out of the Indian Ocean.

I go with this one as your current invasion of India pushes him back and will allow you to gain some short term economic benefits. Going for western Australia will allow you to protect your economic assets in the SRA. Protect your LOCs and threaten his.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 7:26:32 PM

Q-Ball

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I would prefer a target that will bring out the US Fleet. That is most likely Midway, though that island isn't worth much in terms of points, or really anything other than an irritating base.

This just put the image of burning Japanese CVs into my mind! My initial reaction to Midway...

It will work. In fact, we can go ahead and detach 2 of our CVs and keep them off Karachi, with another CV TF providing a diversion in the Aleutians, where I know Canoerebel is building up forces. It will take a month to get the Ichiki Det and another 500 SNLF troops together and ships, but that should be plenty of ground troops to take the base, after a morning of aerial bombardment destroys the garrison. I don't quite have enough attack aircraft to fill out the CVs, but no big deal. The USN is nowhere near the place, and at any rate, my complex operational plan is perfect, and cannot fail.

I estimate first week of June we'll get that rolling. Don't tell the Army about it, though.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 7:30:59 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I would prefer a target that will bring out the US Fleet. That is most likely Midway, though that island isn't worth much in terms of points, or really anything other than an irritating base.

This just put the image of burning Japanese CVs into my mind! My initial reaction to Midway...

It will work. In fact, we can go ahead and detach 2 of our CVs and keep them off Karachi, with another CV TF providing a diversion in the Aleutians, where I know Canoerebel is building up forces. It will take a month to get the Ichiki Det and another 500 SNLF troops together and ships, but that should be plenty of ground troops to take the base, after a morning of aerial bombardment destroys the garrison. I don't quite have enough attack aircraft to fill out the CVs, but no big deal. The USN is nowhere near the place, and at any rate, my complex operational plan is perfect, and cannot fail.

I estimate first week of June we'll get that rolling. Don't tell the Army about it, though.

I recommend you reconnoiter North of Pearl Harbor with a submarine scout string. These will surely detect any movement of his fleet North of Pearl.

Bring plenty of fresh water too.

I agree with the foolproof nature of this plan! At the very least, I can't speak against it for fear of appearing to disagree with you, Admiral sir.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 7:39:02 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

This is a good debate, and Bullwinkle does make some good point. A few thoughts:

1. The total Light Industry beyond the Trigger Line in India is exactly 500; not enough to launch offensive operations, but enough to keep 10 divisions from dropping dead of hunger. This assumes I keep KB posted without interruption for several months off Karachi. No, starving them out is impossible.

I have observed supply convoys transiting to Karachi, so pretty sure he's shipped some in already, while I had KB in the Bay of Bengal covering those landings.

2. Can I conquer the place? It may be remotely possible, IF I continue to commit troops, and IF I make sure KB is posted off Karachi after I cross the Trigger Line. However, 2-3 of those Divisions appear in Karachi IIRC, so he will get immediate reinforcement, not to mention a shot of the arm into the replacement pool. He pulled fragments for all those units I destroyed, which means they will rebuild much quicker after I cross the Trigger Line.

At this point, even if I use ships to land on the coast, it will take a minimum of 2 months with little resistance, because of the great travel distances to the interior.

3. Withdrawl isn't a big problem shipping-wise; despite the massive commitment to India, I am ahead in shipping fuel-resources to the Home Islands. No problems. Part of what helps is that it's a short trip to Singapore from India, compared to the Central Pacific.

Going for all of India is very risky. If it wasn't for that 6-Division trigger....why not? But giving the Allies 6 divisions wipes out all LCU gains and then some.

I can't comment on your strategic options, as I do read the other AAR. Except to say you're dividing your effort and poking the tiger on some of them. They don't seem to fit into a matrix, except to try to bring out the USN, and when has CR ever done that when he didn't have to?

It sounds like you're leaning one way in India, so I'll just say a couple more things and then shut up to watch the fun.

1. As you have no doubt pretty much turned off the fuel tap, and you know how much any Allied palyer guards his tankers, you are correct that LI is probably his only supply salvation. You can't stopper all raw material flows, so he'll have a bit. I assume the 500 is per day? I'm not a production guru. Looking at my own game, randomly, the 7th Indian Division at Akyab on Rest is demanding 728 Supplies on the Supplies Required line. I "think" that's monthly? Or weekly? Regardless, if LI is really 3500/week, he "may" be able to feed 10 divisions. But I'm proposing forcing them to fight, not sit. You control that, not him.

Also, his long, long retreat back from the coast will eat up supplies (see table in manual.) If he uses mostly rail it won't be a lot, but some.

Also, replacements only happen where there are 2x supplies, and cost supplies to activate devices. Getting a big device windfall from you crossing the line might be a mixed blessing if they suck down operating supply levels to reboot the units you've already crushed. Also, his chances of doing any of the mid-1942 TOE upgrades to the Indian army are slim to none.

If he fixes his troops, can he also work on forts? Especially as the levels go to 6 or higher, and costs are not linear with level gains.

I figured he was sneaking some stuff in from the Mideast, which is why my biggest WTF is why aren't you using your navy? You don't need the KB to stop convoys. Many DD TFs, subs, mines in Karachi, etc. You have to plug Karachi, or at least make him commit RN or USN capital ships to keep it open. If you can't/won't plug Karachi, then yes, don't go for the gold. Absolutely.

Bottom line, if some of the reenforcements auto-arrive in Karachi, and Karachi is blockaded by sea, and partly to the east (paratroops? armor spearhead?) all that does is suck down Karachi's supply stocks nearly instantly to activate the new guys and build their internal supply totals. Fort construction stops, and combat eats at the pile even more. You can add LBA to taste. When Karachi falls, all those new troops do is deliver VPs. But you have to do it quickly.

Then you go knock off Bataan, and those 70,000 POWs, and see where you are.

And if you want to bring out the USN, the BEST way IMO is to credibly threaten an auto-vic. There's really no other loss among those you list as possibilities that the Allied player can't ignore until he chooses to repond, and has overwhelming carrier power.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 9/30/2010 7:45:09 PM >

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 7:50:23 PM

Mistmatz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I would prefer a target that will bring out the US Fleet. That is most likely Midway, though that island isn't worth much in terms of points, or really anything other than an irritating base.

And why would an "irritating base" bring out the allies?

Personally I like the idea about west Australia because it would deny a big part of the map to the allies, even more so if you can establish a constant threat for his shipping around Karachi. It would also very nicely hinder movement of supplies and fuel from off-map bases.

Ideally with this approach you'd force every move onto the map to be a big one (read invasion), which gives you the opportunity for a fight. Off course this would be even better if you could take out Karachi completely, but I really don't know much about the viability to pull that stunt. Though other posters have a point about supply and an eventually dispersed entry for these reinforcements. And of course they are also VP...

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 7:57:38 PM

John 3rd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I would prefer a target that will bring out the US Fleet. That is most likely Midway, though that island isn't worth much in terms of points, or really anything other than an irritating base.

This just put the image of burning Japanese CVs into my mind! My initial reaction to Midway...

It will work. In fact, we can go ahead and detach 2 of our CVs and keep them off Karachi, with another CV TF providing a diversion in the Aleutians, where I know Canoerebel is building up forces. It will take a month to get the Ichiki Det and another 500 SNLF troops together and ships, but that should be plenty of ground troops to take the base, after a morning of aerial bombardment destroys the garrison. I don't quite have enough attack aircraft to fill out the CVs, but no big deal. The USN is nowhere near the place, and at any rate, my complex operational plan is perfect, and cannot fail.

I estimate first week of June we'll get that rolling. Don't tell the Army about it, though.

I recommend you reconnoiter North of Pearl Harbor with a submarine scout string. These will surely detect any movement of his fleet North of Pearl.

Bring plenty of fresh water too.

I agree with the foolproof nature of this plan! At the very least, I can't speak against it for fear of appearing to disagree with you, Admiral sir.

When I grabbed Midway in my current game I even named it AF just to try to bring on the wrath of the Gods of History!

Make sure you split your CVs into 10-12 different TF that LOOK like they cannot support each other and then bring in your entire Battle Fleet for the decisive battle.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 7:57:43 PM

Q-Ball

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I would like to go for it actually, because the other strategic options are not particularly appealing. And if Dan feels threatened, he might actually bring out the fleet.

Big Problem: That 3380 AV Garrison requirement! How much AV can I get to Karachi, with much of that needed to garrison the route? Even if I skip alot of town, I will still have several divisions tied-up this way.

A preliminary step, before 100% committing, would be the occupation of Goa, which gives me a base on the Arabian Sea, and also, as a bonus, does not have a garrison requirement. I can also land at Socotra as another base, though not sure if that triggers the reinforcements or not. Both can help interdict Karachi.

Using surface ships without CVs would bring out the US CVs for sure within a month, the time it would take to transit there. It wouldn't surprise me if Dan was already stationing his CVs in Australia or Capetown, in case things in India deteriorate further, rather than way in the Pacific. If they aren't in one of those places, then it's probably because he is planning a counterstrike somewhere to take some pressure off, likely somewhere I would have to commit ground units, like the Solomons or SRA. But who knows, I really can't be sure where they are or what they are doing.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 8:05:44 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I would like to go for it actually, because the other strategic options are not particularly appealing. And if Dan feels threatened, he might actually bring out the fleet.

Big Problem: That 3380 AV Garrison requirement! How much AV can I get to Karachi, with much of that needed to garrison the route? Even if I skip alot of town, I will still have several divisions tied-up this way.

If you get to auto-vic levels you don't need to worry about garrisoning for long. The interim VP losses are relatively minor compared to knocking off multiple divisions of troops. Karachi--Go Big, Or Go Home.

Until then, by-pass and let the chips fall. Once Karachi and Bombay are secure and forted, rotate back, divide up some divisions, and garrison for whatever time remains until January. But I would emulate Rome: Conquer the savages by going for the heart of their culture, then later set up camps and trade/civilize/convert. Legions thrusting deep into Indian country (pun intended) did not play nice-nice with the local infrastructure.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 10/1/2010 3:04:35 AM

Q-Ball

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Combat Report, May 10-11, 1942:

Battle of Gau Island: I had a small cruiser force, that has visited Suva twice with no results (I've done this in the Aleutians too, but so far, I've hit air all around). Finally, I found something, and it was a good hit:

---------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Gau Island at 133,162, Range 18,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
DD Yukikaze
DD Tokitsukaze
DD Asagumo
DD Shiratsuyu

Allied Ships
AP Tasker H. Bliss, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
AP Henry T. Allen, Shell hits 12, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAK Kansan, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Sagadahoc, Shell hits 8, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
PC Crawford, Shell hits 7, and is sunk

Allied ground losses:
2956 casualties reported
Squads: 210 destroyed, 263 disabled
Non Combat: 294 destroyed, 178 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 121 (119 destroyed, 2 disabled)
Vehicles lost 114 (108 destroyed, 6 disabled)

There was a unit or two on those ships; must have been infantry based on the fact that there were no engineers.

Killing a bunch of transports is good, particularly the Harris-Class which turn into valuable APAs later on. But there is NOTHING better than slaughtering transports packed with troops. Yay, Empire!

INDIA: I haven't posted a map in awhile of the Northeast. We are closing out Calcutta; units are slowly evacuating, but we are attacking tommorow to hurry them along. We should have the rail line cleared fairly soon.

In the South, not sure we can surround the 20th Infanry, but we'll try.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 10/1/2010 3:05:01 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

... the all-Allied-player (which I am and so is CR) mindset that supply just happens. There isn't the normal Japanese player's habit of looking at industry, raw matl, etc. all of the time. The Japanese player guards supplies and thinks about them. The Allied player has supply to burn, and that makes for bad habits ...

Not this little black duck, and I can immediately think of two very well known players whose focus on Allied logistics matches and would surpass many a Japanese player.

But you are generally correct and that is probably the main reason why so many players dislike China. It is simply not possible to play a good game in China if logistics is not accorded the prime consideration in tha theatre.

Alfred

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 10/1/2010 3:21:50 AM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLoneGunman

Would it be "gamey" to leave some of those Indian cities in Allied hands and simply let the uprisings in them take a toll on Allied VP and PP (do they lose PP for uprisings?)?

If you can't take the whole thing, make him pay for abandoning the sections he's going to need to hit you back eventually.

If PP is lost as well, you're effectively crippling his ability to transfer units elsewhere.

Yes

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 10/1/2010 4:01:13 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

... My options:

1. KEEP GOING IN INDIA
2. INVADE West Australia: This would attract US Army troops no doubt, but taking Perth would really keep the USN out of the Indian Ocean.
3. INVADE NORTHEAST OZ: I evacuated Cooktown, but coming back with several divisions would change the tune
4. FIJI
5. MIDWAY
6. ALEUTIANS
7. RAID: PEARL HARBOR REDUX, Perhaps? If I am really lucky, the USN CVs are sitting there.

I would prefer a target that will bring out the US Fleet. That is most likely Midway, though that island isn't worth much in terms of points, or really anything other than an irritating base.

These are just a few preliminary comments. I'll come back with more detail after I've looked at the map and thought about the issues.

1. You may need to keep going in India, at least until you reach the trigger line, just to capture sufficient resource centers to feed your major Indian industrial centers. I need to check this, but the Indian industry north of the trigger line may be dependent on access to resource centers south of the trigger line. Some of the resource centers are located in dot base hexes.

2. Be very careful you do not trigger Australian reinforcements. I'm not certain which hexes trigger the reinforcements. IIRC it is one hex below Brisbane, but is it a straight horizontal line, in which case Perth would be a trigger. If it is safe to invade Western Australia and not trigger reinforcements, you should consider landing Esperance and driving north to capture Kalgoorlie. That would trap the Perth garrison.

3. A Japanese controlled north east Australia opens up the possibility of racking up strategic point VPs by bombing Australian industry. It also allows for destruction of Allied local supply generation and of Australian aircraft production.

4. Fiji only makes sense to me if the intention is to destroy the local garrison and once accomplished move the same conquering Japanese units to Tonga, rinse and repeat to Samoa, rinse and repeat to Cook Islands, ditto Marquesas etc. If this is not completely achievable, I would hesitate starting the process by invading Fiji. You don't need to capture Fiji if your intention is to invade New Zealand, but that operation is very questionable IMHO.

5. Only if the intention is to ultimately move on to Hawaii (see my post of some months back). Otherwise, such a late term invasion of Midway, in the face of a completely undamaged USN fleet, is merely creating a very vulnerable outpost. It would be only slightly less vulnerable if you also captured Johnston Island and then the Line Islands, but then only because the Allies would have a plethora of tragets to choose from.

6. Aleutians could be good, depending on how much you think your opponent has built them up. Small garrison, isolated, non mutually supportive bases, would be a tempting target if you can land two divisions at a time. If you go down this path of destroying small garrisons, don't overlook Nome which has probably not been reinforced as it is usually too far away from the frontline. You could capture and then abandon Nome.

7. I understand your reluctance to invade Hawaii but there is one scenario which makes the the cost of the invasion worthwhile. A Japanese Hawaii serving as the base of operations for an invasion of the West Coast. That is not such a fantastical idea as it might seem at first for the following reasons.

(a) the follow on landing on the West Coast would occur close to the majical 4:1 auto victory period that you would not need to capture too many cities before it kicks in
(b) as your time on the ground would be short, the American reinforcements could be largely dismissed
(c) the late invasion would benefit from the usual Allied praxis of buying out units and sending them elsewhere, leaving little to defend against a full Japanese invasion (or whatever you can scrape together after garrisoning India)
(d) not too many Allied players would bother building forts on the West Coast. Combine this with (c) and you mioght be surprised at how weak the Allied defences are
(e) with Hawaii as your base, think of all the fun you will have sinking all those Allied troop convoys rushing back to the West Coast with those out of position Allied LCUs

Alfred

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 10/1/2010 4:09:50 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLoneGunman

Would it be "gamey" to leave some of those Indian cities in Allied hands and simply let the uprisings in them take a toll on Allied VP and PP (do they lose PP for uprisings?)?

If you can't take the whole thing, make him pay for abandoning the sections he's going to need to hit you back eventually.

If PP is lost as well, you're effectively crippling his ability to transfer units elsewhere.

Yes

Why exactly would it be gamey. We are talking here about Allied owned cities which have not been captured by Japan and which the Allied player has voluntarily abandoned, presumably to concentrate his forces elsewhere. If anyone is being gamey here, it would be Q-Ball's opponent. There is nothing in the rule book which says that Japan must capture every base in India, all it says is that for certain bases, there is a requirement on the owner (whether Allied or Japan) to garrison them or else suffer certain minor consequences.

Alfred

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 10/1/2010 9:03:40 AM

modrow

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Alfred,

quote:

Why exactly would it be gamey. We are talking here about Allied owned cities which have not been captured by Japan and which the Allied player has voluntarily abandoned, presumably to concentrate his forces elsewhere. If anyone is being gamey here, it would be Q-Ball's opponent. There is nothing in the rule book which says that Japan must capture every base in India, all it says is that for certain bases, there is a requirement on the owner (whether Allied or Japan) to garrison them or else suffer certain minor consequences.

Alfred

In general, I agree that noone forces anybody to take or evacuate a city, so it is up to you to decide whether you take it or not and/or whether to evacuate it or not and bear the consequences. As a matter of fact, garrisoning India in an appropriate way (using the available units of low value in combat while freeing the ones that are useful) is one of the important organization tasks of the Allied player - I usually shuffle around quite a number of units in India to get it right.

I would be less sure if the supply flow routine would not work as it is supposed to (some people seem to have concerns about that). If you decide not to take a city that is sitting on your supply route, you should feel the consequences of having to bypass it.

Just my 2cts.

Hartwig

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 10/1/2010 11:44:46 AM

d0mbo

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I am curious to know as well, does Perth and Surroundings trigger additional reinforcements?

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 10/1/2010 12:35:09 PM

veji1

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No I don't think so the line under Brisbane is a hex line, therefore it is going south-west to north east mapwise, it think this lines cover mainly Brisbane-Sydney-Melbourne. In the west you can go all the way to Adelaide without triggering it.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 10/1/2010 3:21:19 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLoneGunman

Would it be "gamey" to leave some of those Indian cities in Allied hands and simply let the uprisings in them take a toll on Allied VP and PP (do they lose PP for uprisings?)?

If you can't take the whole thing, make him pay for abandoning the sections he's going to need to hit you back eventually.

If PP is lost as well, you're effectively crippling his ability to transfer units elsewhere.

Yes

Why exactly would it be gamey. We are talking here about Allied owned cities which have not been captured by Japan and which the Allied player has voluntarily abandoned, presumably to concentrate his forces elsewhere. If anyone is being gamey here, it would be Q-Ball's opponent. There is nothing in the rule book which says that Japan must capture every base in India, all it says is that for certain bases, there is a requirement on the owner (whether Allied or Japan) to garrison them or else suffer certain minor consequences.

Alfred

Let me qualify my answer for you. If the base is behind Japenese lines then yes it is gamey. You would in effect be "harvesting free PPs" and that smacks of gamey to me.

I don't think either side historically would leave any ungarrisoned enemy base in their rear. Do you?

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 10/1/2010 8:00:41 PM

Jaroen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I would like to go for it actually, because the other strategic options are not particularly appealing. And if Dan feels threatened, he might actually bring out the fleet.

Big Problem: That 3380 AV Garrison requirement! How much AV can I get to Karachi, with much of that needed to garrison the route? Even if I skip alot of town, I will still have several divisions tied-up this way.

A preliminary step, before 100% committing, would be the occupation of Goa, which gives me a base on the Arabian Sea, and also, as a bonus, does not have a garrison requirement. I can also land at Socotra as another base, though not sure if that triggers the reinforcements or not. Both can help interdict Karachi.

Using surface ships without CVs would bring out the US CVs for sure within a month, the time it would take to transit there. It wouldn't surprise me if Dan was already stationing his CVs in Australia or Capetown, in case things in India deteriorate further, rather than way in the Pacific. If they aren't in one of those places, then it's probably because he is planning a counterstrike somewhere to take some pressure off, likely somewhere I would have to commit ground units, like the Solomons or SRA. But who knows, I really can't be sure where they are or what they are doing.

You're doing great! Congratulations sofar for pushing the Brits on an apparent retreat!

I fully agree with your estimate of combat possibilities on the India mainland. It'd be a great fight and you might even win many battles. But it would most likely end up like a swamp sucking in man and material for no gain in the end.

I was expecting more of a fight by the allies and am surprised by the seemingly weak resistance. When playing Japan against the AI I found it very hard to crack a defensive Calcutta (with forts and strong air support). But you seemingly crushed CR's air or made him withdraw it. Isn't Calcutta good defensible terrain with an interesting defensive modifier? Do you think it's correct to assume the allies don't have any solid units left on the Eastern half of India?

On the subject of the fast retreating Allied units.
Do you have any base forces on land to setup a well placed base to use for interdiction bombardments? Bombarded forces change from fast moving units to combat marches. That might help you in slowing them!

As for possible future tagets; go for the VP's!!!
The easier won the better, and any side goal achieved is a bonus.
If (big IF!!!) India is going quickly would you have some spare units left from that area? If so, would they have any benefit in South West China??? For example, as in challenging possession of the rail line from Vietnam into China and possibly even connecting toward the Canton/HongKong area??? Perhaps they would offer the small extra strenght to push some defenders over the brink and help you with some VP rich targets??? BTW, this is mainly to help with brainstorming on potential future targets and possibilities. The China action is only viable with enough forces in defense on India and the DEI.

Good luck rebel hunting!

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Post #: 290

RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 10/4/2010 2:07:44 AM

Q-Ball

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Combat Report, May 13-16, 1942:

Calcutta: There was a stack of units in Calcutta, including alot of AA I would love to have made retreat, but alas, they escaped to the north. The Fort William unit is the only one left; we should have Calcutta taken tommorow.

Otherwise, we are already moving west of Calcutta; Howrah has fallen, and we are closing in on Jamshedpur.

Guerillas: A refugee unit emerged from the jungle and took Magwe! We will take it back shortly, but that would be irritating if the facilities were damaged. I hope I can get some of these cut-off units to surrender, instead of just keep retreating.

Goa: I landed troops at Goa. I forgot to move a CV for air support, so Stringbags from Bombay sortied and sank an APD and AMC. OUCH! I need to be smarter than that! Bad me.

This Goa landing will give me a Naval Base on the Arabian Sea, as well as closer to Bombay, a future target.

Subs: We lost a good DD to a sub off Colombo, the Wakaba. I have lost only 3 DDs so far, all of them to Subs. Ouch!

My subs keep getting AKs, but it's been awhile since I hit anything more interesting than that.

Luzon: My hodgepodge force of 800-ish AV (garrison units and odds and ends), has reduced the forts twice. I have to rest the troops for a few days, but I am not in any hurry here; once Clark falls, then Bataan should fall as soon as I can get there.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 10/4/2010 3:06:41 AM

ny59giants

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9 sacks in the first half Brad.
What will this game end up being??

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 10/4/2010 4:09:38 AM

Johraiken

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New to the game (more of a Hearts of Iron player), but I have to say I have been reading this with interest.
One of the more interesting strategies I read in the AAR's

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Post #: 293

RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 10/4/2010 2:59:44 PM

pws1225

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From: Tate's Hell, Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Johraiken

New to the game (more of a Hearts of Iron player), but I have to say I have been reading this with interest.
One of the more interesting strategies I read in the AAR's

I played Hearts of Iron too. The AI in WITP/AE is light years ahead of HOI. You may want to give it a shot.

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Post #: 294

RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 10/4/2010 3:56:13 PM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

9 sacks in the first half Brad.
What will this game end up being??

Can't figure out the NFC East. I am beginning to think 9-7 will win that divison and the wild card will come from elsewhere.

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Post #: 295

RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 10/4/2010 4:31:11 PM

oldman45

Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLoneGunman

Would it be "gamey" to leave some of those Indian cities in Allied hands and simply let the uprisings in them take a toll on Allied VP and PP (do they lose PP for uprisings?)?

If you can't take the whole thing, make him pay for abandoning the sections he's going to need to hit you back eventually.

If PP is lost as well, you're effectively crippling his ability to transfer units elsewhere.

Yes

Why exactly would it be gamey. We are talking here about Allied owned cities which have not been captured by Japan and which the Allied player has voluntarily abandoned, presumably to concentrate his forces elsewhere. If anyone is being gamey here, it would be Q-Ball's opponent. There is nothing in the rule book which says that Japan must capture every base in India, all it says is that for certain bases, there is a requirement on the owner (whether Allied or Japan) to garrison them or else suffer certain minor consequences.

Alfred

Let me qualify my answer for you. If the base is behind Japenese lines then yes it is gamey. You would in effect be "harvesting free PPs" and that smacks of gamey to me.

I don't think either side historically would leave any ungarrisoned enemy base in their rear. Do you?

If there were no enemy troops present and it held no stratigic value, I could see leaving it behind to the "rebels"

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 10/5/2010 7:21:19 PM

Alfred

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Q-Ball,

A follow up to my post #284.

Having now looked at the map, the particular tilt which exists to the Australian continent layout means that a horizontal line 1 hex south of Brisbane, allows for a Japanese landing as far east as Port Augusta without triggering the Allied reinforcements. This means that you have these options for Australian operations:

(a) land at Port Augusta. This intersects the Trans Australian Railway and cuts off the Western Australian garrison from being reinforced overland. Perth industry, provided it retains access to the Kalgoorlie resources, will be able to support about 3 Allied divisions, or about 1300 AV. From Port Augusta you can quickly capture the adjacent Whyally to give you mutually supportive airbases. This toe hold will allow you to bomb Adelaide industry (4 hexes distant) and even Geelong (11 hexes distant ) and Melbourne (12 hexes distant) to accumulate strategic VPs. A short advance further east to capture the major mining centre, Broken Hill, will assist in starving the Australian east coast industrial centres.

(b) land at Esperance and move north to capture Kalgoorlie. This allows you to also cut off the Western Australian garrison from overland reinforcement, albeit at a slower pace than if yhou land at Port Augusta. It would be a race against time to reach Kalgoorlie before your opponent could rail his Adelaide (or Perth) garrison to reinforce Kalgoorlie. If you win the race you can then move against Perth whose industry would feed a sizeable Japanese garrison. It might also be in your long term interest to send some of your DEI fuel (probably from the smaller DEI refineries) to feed Perth's Heavy Industry rather than the Home Islands (shorter distance, stretches Allied sub resources to new areas). Owning Perth's small shipyard allows you to base some subs to cut off Allied convoys from Cape Town.

(c) land north of Brisbane with the intention of capturing Brisbane and Toowoomba, which are mutually supporting aribases. From Brisbane, your airforce can strike at industry (for strategic VPs) at Newcastle (7 hexes), Sydney (9 hexes) and Port Kembla (10 hexes). Unfortunately, compared to either (a) or (b) above, you are likely to meet the strongest Allied resistance on this front as Allied supply lines are much shorter with better rail lines and numerous bases to house Allied airplanes.

My suspicion is that if you commence a strategic bombing campaing in Australia, you will greatly surprise your opponent. He probably will not have prepared for it as Japanese players rarely contemplate earning VPs by this route. Strategic bombing not only will earn VPs but it can also reduce Australian aircraft production, thereby putting even more pressure on the limited Allied aircraft replacement pools.

With regard to my earlier comments on India, notwithstanding the garrison requirements, I do think you will have to advance at least to the trigger line, and perhaps even to cross it. Stopping short of the trigger line still leaves the Allies with significant local supply generation capacity. Within that zone, the Allies produce sufficient resources (with a small surplus) to fully feed their Light Industry. That would generate 500 supply points daily. A further 20 daily supply points would be generated by the Rawalpindi refinery. However, once the existing stockpiles have been exhausted, there would be insufficient resources and fuel to fully feed the 120 Heavy Industry centers. On average, the remaining Allied Heavy industry would probably be able to produce another 1350 supply points monthly (= 45 daily). With a long term Allied capacity of generating at least 565 supply points daily (not including any supply shipped in or being able to use stockpiles) approximately some 4500 AV could be maintained. Even without triggering Allied reinforcements, the remaining Allied forces would represent a substantial counter attack capability. By advancing at least up to the trigger line you gain the following:

(d) airbases to bomb Indian resource centers/heavy + light industry. Although this will not garner you any strategic VPs (unlike Australia) it will starve the enemy and make it much more difficult for them to launch an offensive against your Indian conquests which because of the garrison requirements means you will have many small garrisons which invite defeat in detail from a well supplied and concentrated Allied overland counter attack

(e) the option to cross the trigger line with the intention of advancing on Karachi via Ahmedabad, Jodphur and Hyderabad (Sindh). Including in this advance the small desert bases Bikaner, Ajmer and Jaipur which because of their surplus resources production, would be extremely valuable, you could cut off the remaining Indian bases from importing the necessary resources to even run their Light Industry at 100% capacity.

(f) if in response to (e) above your opponent voluntarily withdraws from his interior bases to Karachi, you gain the benefit of earning VPs (note they would reduce the Allied denominator and are therefore of more value than the equivalent destruction of Allied devices) without the need to garrison the interior bases (eg Delhi, Lahore, Amritsar etc). Nor would the supply blockage be an issue for you as you would not have any forces to supply in the area.

Alfred

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Post #: 297

RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 10/8/2010 4:49:59 PM

Q-Ball

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Combat Report, May 17-20, 1942:

STATUS: Dan has been on a hiking trip this week, and I am going camping this weekend, so between our outdoors activities, hardly any AE.

Calcutta: Calcutta fell on the 20th; the Fort William unit surrendered, with another 5K POWs. I don't know how many troops I have captured in India, but the Allied Ground Losses are almost 10,000 pts, and I have not liquidated the Phillipines (not even Mindinao).

ASANSOL also fell, we mauled an Indian Bde there, acheiving 69-1 odds with only a division attacking. We destroyed over half the squads in the unit. With that kind of result, it's no wonder that Dan is retreating; I wonder if he'll even make a stand short of Delhi. I have to assume he is aware of the Trigger Line for reinforcements.

JAMSHEDPUR also fell, but there was noone home. NE India is pretty much done.

South India: We landed support troops at GOA, and are driving toward BELLARY, to open a rail connection to COCANDA and ultimately CALCUTTA. This will allow a big shift of troops to attack BOMBAY, which given the tough terrain there, Dan might actually choose to defend.

MADRAS is basically open, still in Allied hands but only a fort unit defending. We'll take care of that shortly.

Deigo Garcia: I have not forgotten this point; just prepping troops for it. Recon shows 5000 defenders in 2 units, so Dan must have dropped a combat unit there. I need it to screen the Bay of Bengal, so I have that on my list.

I have had a line of AVs off the Cocos Islands for almost 2 months, and they have not sighted any Allied convoys. Now that Addu is in my hands, I think it's safe to assume that there are no on-map convoys accross the Indian Ocean to OZ. I will probably pull those guys in, or send them to another spot.....

Phillipines: We are resting awhile before another attack at Clark; the last one dropped the forts to 1 and was a 2-1, but we had alot of disabled squads. I am letting them rest; I think he's out of supplies, so building the forts again isn't possible, and he can't recover any disablements. I think he's out, because I lowered the altitude of my bombers as an experiment, and they are STILL attracting hardly any fire.

Once Luzon falls, I will prep some units for CEBU and MINDANAO. I am not in a particular hurry; those units aren't going anywhere, and can't really hurt me either.

Looking Ahead: Dan will not fight on this side of the Trigger Line, it seems, except maybe Bombay. My RECON, as far as it can see, sees only retreating troops, and they are moving past stronger defensive points. It's decision time now, because I can easily march accross most of India right now, but I will "lose" troops on my way to Delhi, simply due to garrison requirements.

CALCUTTA, UNDER JAPANESE OCCUPATION:

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 10/8/2010 5:08:36 PM >

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Post #: 298

RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 10/8/2010 4:59:32 PM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

Dan has been on a hiking trip this week

Seems his whole Army is hiking! Now if you could only get him to go sailing!

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 10/8/2010 8:15:29 PM

Mike Solli

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Hey Q-Ball, I just caught up on this great AAR.� I was thinking India was the way to go way back when you were pondering your next move.� India is nice because it's in a corner of the world that the US fleet rarely goes.� You can totally outnumber and outclass the RN.� Allied reinforcements have to come from within.� The US is too far away to get reinforcements there in time.� The garrison requirements are a bear though.� In my PBEM, I'm learning about garrison requirments in Burma.� That's eating my offensive strength alive.� 5 point garrisons suck!

I'm beginning to think that most PPs will be spent on ground units coming from Manchuoko.

Edit: Oh yeah, how to bring out the US fleet..... In my opinion, you don't need to invade something. You only need to make him think you're invading something important. Still not sure what important target will bring them out though...

< Message edited by Mike Solli -- 10/8/2010 8:17:02 PM >

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