RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe)

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/26/2010 10:55:23 AM

terje439

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
NE India: Despite taking Silchar and Tezpur, we can't RR there; "No Path". Why? Not sure.....but if we have to march, so be it.

Have you tried looking at the hex control overlay? Might it be that the rail line goes through enemy ZoC or enemy controlled hexes? Sounds likely since you only paradropped into Tezpur.

Terje

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/27/2010 3:41:31 PM

Q-Ball

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terje439: That's it. I need to actually walk to the end of the line I guess.

Combat Report, April 2-23, 1942:

Slow-Going: Troops are approaching Salem in the south, just outside Madras, and marching toward Bezwada from Cocanda, to cut off Madras from the other direction.

The other main advance, in NE India, is going slowly. It's going to take awhile to surround Calcutta, I estimate a month at least. Meanwhile, the Allies get stronger, which isn't a good thing.

India is a monster-sized continent that takes 2+ months to walk accross, even if completely unopposed. I do control the seas, so I am able to land at Goa or further up the coast, but that would be yet another prong that is not mutually supporting.

I need to bring together the Southern Forces, and close out Madras.

Bidding Addu: I landed 3 units at Addu, and it fell instantly. I probably overdid it with the invasion, bringing 160 AV, but I wasn't sure how much AV the base force there had; I knew it was fairly large. Anyway, another 3,000 POWs, but not a useful unit for the Allies.

Refugees: The 4 Bns from Akyab that were wrecked have made the coast; one unit disappeared, so I think he is airlifting them out via Flying Boat. Not much I can do about that, but the units he is lifting won't be worth much, because he doesn't have Burmese or British squads to replace them with.

The stack that withdrew from Chittagong is still in the jungle; they are stuck. I bomb them everyday for target practice, so they are probably not doing well.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS TO DATE: I have failed in one objective: The Allied fleet does not want to come out it seems. Either Dan is hording his ships for large counterstroke elsewhere, or he is going to refuse combat until he has naval superiority, and can overwhelm me with numbers.

Waiting is not a bad strategy, it's pretty much a sure-winner for the Allies.

He isn't coming out for India I don't think. He didn't really have to, because it's a land campaign, but he ain't coming IMO, unless it's to raid my supply line in the Bay of Bengal. I have a good line of pickets, though, so feel pretty secure there, or at least that I'll have warning.

I am pulling Combined Fleet from the Bay of Bengal. I am leaving behind 4 old BBs to provide Fire support to the shore, and I'll keep a few cruisers to raid up the West Coast of India, but everyone else is leaving.

We need to hatch a plan to draw out the US Fleet; or if they refuse to come out, take something that will hurt. Any ideas?

FIJI is only really worth points, nothing else. It's pretty much useless defensively.

MIDWAY is interesting, but not terribly important. It also figures to be a tough nut, as DBs can easily fly there from Pearl.

NO to NEW ZEALAND: I don't want to trigger reinforcements.

LINE ISLANDS? Maybe, that would be a thorn in his side. Or an easily isolated outpost.

ALEUTS? This might have some promise

None of these spots really improve my defenses or are guaranteed to bring out the USN. It's almost May, so anything figures to be pretty well defended.

I could simply start raiding shipping lanes; I haven't done alot of that so far, because I don't want good surface ships stumbling into Carriers.

Defenses: Dan would be doing me a favor by launching a major offensive right now; but it's never too early to start tending to defenses. What is the status?

AIR: I have several BETTY units in the Central Pacific. I have suffered few losses in pilots, so I still have the elite pilots that can hit anything with a torpedo. Zeros are also available. This is my main weapon right now, as they can react in just a turn or two to any ship movements.

Alot of my defensive plans involve Airbase CLUSTERS, where I can use a single AIR HQ to provide torpedo support to multiple airbases. A CLUSTER is also harder to shut down via 4E; any single airbase cannot be defended, but a cluster of 2-3 might be.

KURILES: I have sent some base troops here, and I am airlifting a brigade out to Paramushiro Jima. In a few days I get some Independent Inf. Bns, and plan to deploy them here. Para Jima will be a very tough nut; the other islands are not as of yet. Onnekoton Jima (sp?), is also being built. I plan to CLUSTER Para and Onnek with an AIR DIV HQ flown from Bihoro (a Restricted one).

MARSHALLS/WAKE: It's tough to get a cluster here, but on the flip side, he can't shut them down with 4E ahead of time. The overall defensive plan:

1. Early warning picket line, to the East of Marshalls, and also east of Marcus. I will use xAKLs and Subs.
2. I am only building islands with a 6,000 capacity; these are the toughest to take, and I can easily stuff all of them to the max with troops. I am mostly using NAV GD units in the Marshalls.
3. I am stationing some small AIRBASE COs on some 0(0) and 0 (0) islands; I love these, because they can provide SEAPLANE support, can be easily evacuated if thretened (Via Flying Boat), and are useless to the Allies.
4. I intend to strongly build Ponape, Kusaie, and Nauru, as my 2nd line of defense behind the Marshalls; realistically, though, they are all speedbumps.

SOLOMONS/NEW HEBRIDES:
I do not intend to defend the New Hebrides, except via air. I don't want to commit ground troops down there, because they are too easily cut-off, and too difficult to extract.

I am fortifying the Solomons of course; I am setting up 2 major AIR HQ CLUSTERS:

1. LUNGA-TULAGI-TASSFARONGA: Building all, and putting an AIR HQ at Lunga
2. LAE-NADZAB-WAU: I love these, because only Lae can be assaulted via Sea. Also watches the Torres Strait.

DEI: This is where I am concentrating the most resources, as THIS is the most vulnerable area, particularly SUMATRA, which will get the most attention.

At the SOUTHERN END, Koepang/Roti are one cluster, and I plan to build another on Flores. Java is a ready-built cluster, with unlimited airbases and local supply sources.

SUMATRA will have at least 2, maybe 3 CLUSTERS:
One centered around Palembang, and using the 2 (7) potential airbases to the West, and another around MEDAN, using all airbases within 5 hexes, including one in the center of Sumatra.

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 9/27/2010 3:42:15 PM >

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/27/2010 5:01:09 PM

Mynok

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quote:

3. I am stationing some small AIRBASE COs on some 0(0) and 0 (0) islands; I love these, because they can provide SEAPLANE support, can be easily evacuated if thretened (Via Flying Boat), and are useless to the Allies.

Interesting thought. Curious to see how they work at this. I assume you'll supply with APDs or barges?

Back side of Malaya can help with Sumatra as well, especially the end that sticks way out into the IO. Very hard to defend down there without air power from Malaya/Siam.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/27/2010 7:41:54 PM

Q-Ball

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MYNOK: RE: Malaya, this does help defend Sumatra; you can reach Sumatran airbases from Malaya, and there are so many airstrips you can't shut them all down. It would be very tough for that reason for the Allies to establish themselves around there in 1942. 1943....another story.

RE: Supply, I just drop off 5000 supplies with the initial landing, and call it a day with that. I just landed an Aviation Company on the 0-0 base between Wake and Wotje; begins with a T, can't remember the name.

Combat Report, April 25, 1942:

Cooktown: The Australians re-take Cooktown. The only troops I had there was that 1/33 unit that withdraws in 30 days anyway; I withdrew most of it via flying boat just to avoid the point loss. Otherwise, I had no intention of defending Cooktown.

I must remain vigilant for a buildup along the Australian coast; Dan will no doubt attempt to construct large airbases.

My BFF!: A tank unit kicked the BFF Brigade further down the road toward Cuttack, killing over 100 squads. That unit is toast.

I know BFF stands for "Burma Frontier Force" or something like that, but I can't help but think of them as the "Best Friends Forever" Brigade. No wonder they can't fight.....OMG!

Reinforcements: I am careful to hold back some troops so Dan has to garrison the coast, but I am committing 1st Inf Div to Cochin, and 2 more Regts. to Cocanda area; object of all is to encircle Madras.

Subs: A couple turns ago, our subs sank 3 xAKS off Karachi. I have sunk a few xAKs in the last month, but nothing special. Dan hasn't sunk much either; he hit an empty tanker off Tarakan a couple weeks back, but it survived (which tankers rarely do). He was having amazing luck early-on with USN Torp hits exploding, but now they are all duds it seems.

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 9/27/2010 7:42:38 PM >

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/27/2010 7:48:06 PM

Mynok

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Malaya's worst defensive feature is that it isn't an island.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/28/2010 1:59:38 AM

Capt. Harlock

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quote:

ALEUTS? This might have some promise

Wild possibility: take Juneau, base Betties there, and bomb the B-17 factory in Seattle. Just about guaranteed to get a response.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/28/2010 4:43:15 AM

Q-Ball

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Combat Report, April 25-27, 1942:

Cochin: Cochin falls; the base force there surrenders. Even better, we hit a damaged sub in the harbor, and sink it, SS SALMON. She was crippled around Ceylon, and couldn't leave port.

NE India: A couple combats; we cloberred a couple Bns that were in our way to clear the rail line.

We can start to move a litte faster if we get the rail line cleared past Darjeeling.

Reinforcements: I am landing a division more each at Chittagong and Cocanda. I really need both at Cocanda, but one of them is prepped 100% for Calcutta, so sorta need to send it there.

Bears 20, Packers 17: Nothing better than beating the Packers and going 3-0. The last undefeated team in the NFC? The Bears are surprising me this year, in a good way!

Attachment (1)

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/28/2010 6:15:05 AM

AcePylut

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quote:

Bears 20, Packers 17: Nothing better than beating the Packers and going 3-0. The last undefeated team in the NFC? The Bears are surprising me this year, in a good way!

I knew there was a reason I was rootin for ya over that damn rebel!

Go bears. Heard a comment that "yea if it weren't for 18 penalties, the pack would have won". And I said, "yeah if it weren't for 18 penalties, there'd be 9 sacks of Rogers and a few long gains by the Bears!"

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/28/2010 7:41:15 PM

Q-Ball

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Bears: So far they are as lucky as they are good, but it's not like the Packers were being flagged for cheap penalties; alot of them were very obvious.

Combat Report, April 28-29,1942:

NE India: Still slow going; I need to clear that unit off the Rails to move more troops forward. The first trains are unloading at Tezpur for the march toward Darjeeling, and around Calcutta. Some cut-off units seem to be falling back on Ledo.

I attacked the cut-off defenders from Chittagong in the jungle to the East; it was a 1-2 attack, and I didn't do much. I only brought 1 unit. I will attack again, just to burn some supplies.

The 4 Bns from Akyab are either destroyed, starved, bombed, or evacuated. I am pretty sure I bombed a British Bn completely though.

Salem: There is an Indian Div at Salem; I am bringing up some reinforcements.

We had a big fight in the air over Salem; 10 Zeros were lost, but I shot down almost 30 RAF planes, including 6 Hurris, and 22 Bombers. I don't see alot of bombers anymore; I know from playing Allies that the RAF doesn't get many replacements, and it's tough to fill out units even if they just sit there. With all the losses, I think the RAF is about cooked. I see Mohawks and Buffalos in the skies, which makes me think he is also low on Hurricanes.

Lost AK: I lost an AK off Sidate, for no apparent reason; cause "Unknown", nothing in the Combat Reports or Ops Reports. We are landing a Nav gd at Sidate to liquidate the garrison at Menado, which I left behind. Oh well, c'est la guerre. Must have hit a rock or something.

Fleet Moves: I am moving most of my warships out of the Bay of Bengal. We are going to start to raid or annoy in the Pacific, and hope the USN comes out. KB is due for a bunch of AA upgrades soon, so unless the Allied CVs appear, I'll probably start those; one at a time though, and while KB is in a central position, probably Truk.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/28/2010 8:12:24 PM

Mynok

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quote:

Lost AK: I lost an AK off Sidate, for no apparent reason; cause "Unknown", nothing in the Combat Reports or Ops Reports. We are landing a Nav gd at Sidate to liquidate the garrison at Menado, which I left behind. Oh well, c'est la guerre. Must have hit a rock or something.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/28/2010 10:24:01 PM

Q-Ball

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Combat Report, April 30, 1942:

Surprise at Bezweda: I sent the 10th IJA Division, a pretty good Division, toward Bezweda; I expected to cross the river, then await reinforcements. To my surprise, they clobbered the defenders, the 23rd Indian Division:

Ground combat at Bezwada (39,36)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 13510 troops, 124 guns, 42 vehicles, Assault Value = 464

Defending force 7229 troops, 108 guns, 98 vehicles, Assault Value = 299

Japanese adjusted assault: 335

Allied adjusted defense: 36

Japanese assault odds: 9 to 1 (fort level 2)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Bezwada !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: op mode(-), leaders(+), leaders(-), preparation(-)
experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+), leaders(+), leaders(-)

Japanese ground losses:
336 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 21 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 17 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Allied ground losses:
2850 casualties reported
Squads: 82 destroyed, 52 disabled
Non Combat: 132 destroyed, 13 disabled
Engineers: 57 destroyed, 7 disabled
Guns lost 58 (55 destroyed, 3 disabled)
Vehicles lost 45 (35 destroyed, 10 disabled)
Units retreated 1

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
10th Division

Defending units:
23rd Indian Division

I think Dan forgot to take them out of STRATEGIC MODE. My unit was only prepped for Bezweda for 7 days, so to get a plus there, he should have prepped the unit for that (or maybe he couldn't, because they needed to continue to train). That division lost pretty much all it's artillery and engineers, which are hard to replace.

The Indian Army formations, at this stage, are very poor; they need training to build up adequate experience. The only units that start trained (on Ceylon and in Malaya), are all dead (or rebuilding).

Anyway, that's encouraging, because a clear path is open to Madras. It will be interesting to see what Dan does; allow his troops to be surrounded, or evacuate. I hope they stay, I would like to bag some units.

Salem: This town is defended by the 20th Indian Division, another recently-raised Division that isn't very good. We are going to bring up some vets and push them out.

Next Steps: I have yet to commit the 3 divisions plus tanks I have on Ceylon; Dan knows they are there, and so constitute an "Army in Being"; he can't 100% commit to anything until they are accounted for. I am just about ready, though, to toss them into the fight for Madras; I think I can close out Madras within 45 days or so, and force Dan to run or lose more units.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 9/28/2010 10:25:05 PM >

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/28/2010 11:56:02 PM

Amoral

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Really good map. Lots of info, good image of what is planned.

< Message edited by Amoral -- 9/28/2010 11:57:29 PM >

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/29/2010 4:00:09 AM

Alfred

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Q-Ball,

The question has been poised as to whether Japan can achieve an auto victory by conquering India. Acquiring the necessary VPs (a 4:1 ratio in 1943, a 3:1 ratio in 1944) can be accomplished by several means, both independent of the capture of Allied bases and interrelated. For example, making Allied LCUs hors de combat both racks up Army Loss Points and in turn makes the capture of Allied cities easier by removing defending units from being able to participate in base defence.

Although the acquisition of VPs is a dynamic factor, one can look at the 7 December 1941 base VP distribution to see whether the conquest of India potentially can provide Japan with an auto VP victory.

The initial VP score distribution on 7 December 1941 is:

Table 1. Initial VP distribution

Japan 1407
Allied 11126

The large difference stems from the fact Japan controls only 29% of the global on map bases. Japanese bases average on 5.6 VP whereas Allied bases average 12.9 VP. This represents the higher Allied built up infrastructure.

If we limit ourselves to the historical mid 1942 Japanese conquests, the initial VP score will have been altered as follows:

Table 2. Historical Japanese Expansion

Captured Region, Japanese Gain, Allies Lose

Wake + Guam, 31, 107
Philippines, 924, 1894
Malaya, 554, 2024
Burma, 388, 1376
Borneo, 158, 158
Sumatra, 132, 132
Java, 275, 440
Rest of DEI, 226, 226
Aust PNG (ex Moresby), 274, 76
Shortlands + Tulagi + Tarawa, 29, 6

Thus the aggregate change is:

Japanese gain 2991 and Allies lose 6439. Incorporating Table 2, this would result in the VP score (excluding other factors) of:

Japan 1407 + 2991 = 4398
Allies 11126 � 6439 = 4687

The Allies would, in theory still be in front, but of course one should anticipate a substantial Japanese lead in Army and Ship Point Losses, which in practice would see Japan in the overall lead.

It is unlikely that a Japanese player would only achieve the historical conquests of Table 2 above. I think it is quite reasonable to assume that the following additional conquests listed in Table 3 below can be accomplished without jeopardising the second phase of operations involving the invasion of India, or Australia or Hawaii. Note that I have deliberately left out potential Japanese conquests in China.

Table 3. Incremental to Historical Japanese Conquests

Region, Japanese Gain, Allies Lose

Port Moresby, 280, 14
New Hebrides, 102, 3
New Caledonia, 34, 302

After Table3, the recalculated VPs would now be:

Japan 4398 + 416 = 4814
Allies 4687 � 319 = 4368

Japan now leads but even with the likely Japanese lead in other VPs, the total VP score by mid 1942 should still be well short of achieving an auto victory. The question is whether a conquest of India brings auto victory within reach.

Table 4. Japanese Conquest of India

Region, Japanese Gain, Allies Lose

Ceylon, 745, 78
Indian Ocean, 18, 75
India, 3157, 249

Potentially, Japan could gain 3920 and the Allies lose 402 from the conquest of India. The aggregate position after Table 4 would now be:

Japan 4814 + 3920 = 8734
Allies 4368 � 402 = 3966

Recalculating after Table 4, Japan would now have a 2.2:1 ratio. To get to a 4:1 ratio to allow for auto victory in 1943, approximately 7200 additional VPs would be required. However, in reality it is likely that the Allied player would have engaged in Indian base construction and therefore Japan would greatly benefit.

I would suggest that provided the Japanese player can keep to a minimum his army/airplane/ship losses throughout 1942, an auto victory is within reach. This would be because in conquering India, the Allies will probably suffer horrendous army point losses and probably lack the resources to defend Australia and New Zealand from a Japanese phase III offensive. The one thing which would impact upon Japanese phase III capabilities would be the huge Indian garrison requirements. Against that can be balanced that Japan can now focus on the eastern/southern, Pacific vector. With Australia effectively cut off from Cape Town/Abadan fuel resupply, Allied defences would be extremely stretched in 1942.

Alfred

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Post #: 253

RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/29/2010 4:33:56 AM

aprezto

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Bah! It's just a case of mathematics. Not a problem for one such as Q-Ball

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/29/2010 7:09:54 PM

Q-Ball

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Combat Report, May 1-5, 1942:

ALFRED/APREZTO: I can't even digest that long e-mail...I'll try later on. Alfred you usually have some interesting info, so I'll get to it. The VPs may come into play, though, given what is going on at the front....

Tezpur: Our spearheads are approaching the next dot down the tracks, I forget the name, that is only 4 road hexes from Calcutta. We are getting closer.

Units near Dacca mauled another Burma Bn; so far, other than the Chittagong garrison which is stuck in the jungle, I have only seen crappy Burma and Assam troops. Just delaying troops really. I have 4 units cornered at Dinapur/Ledo, but I'm sure they are just base forces and low-value garrison troops.

Salem: The 1st Division should reach the base tommorow; then, we attack.

ALLIED MOVES: I am approaching both Calcutta and Madras in such a way that the rail lines to both places will be blocked before we invest the towns. This would force Dan into a decision: Defend those spots in force, or withdraw. If he defended in force, I'm sure he would pull fragments of units, but leave enough combat power behind to create a speed bump for me.

Dan has now seen quite a few Divisions in India, and I'm pretty sure he hasn't seen all of them. I have 7 Divisions in the NE, and 3 in the South, with 3 more on Ceylon awaiting orders, and another at Singapore. I have 2000 PPs at this point, so I can buy another from Manchuria.

As a result, I think he is running. I would actually prefer he stand and fight against the IJA; the Battle of Bezweda showed how that would benefit me. But I think he is pulling a Russia; withdraw, and allow the vast space and garrison requirements of India to swallow up the IJA.

My bombers over Madras report only 1 unit present! I am sending a RECON flight tommorow to confirm, but if that's the case, I might just land right on it; this would cut off the Indian Division at Salem.

Diamond Harbor is down to 5 units (I am limited on supplies, so can't attack unfortunately), and I see units leaving Calcutta.

So, I think Dan is abandoning Eastern India.

If he is, what next? What should I do? My choices:

1. KEEP GOING: I will probably send spearheads forward regardless, but I have to be careful not to pick up alot of garrison requirements. I bet Dan is withdrawing behind the "Line of Death" near Delhi, i.e., the "Line of 6 Divisions of Reinforcements". I will certainly have a decision to make if I approach that line, though I am inclined not to trigger that bonanza.

2. CONSOLIDATE: I can't defend all of Eastern India; I can use it as a buffer, though, and I have inflicted some serious losses, notably destroying that UK Division on Ceylon, and about 2 Indian Divisions worth of decent troops.

Dan is probably planning evil somewhere, so if the offensive stops, I will be pulling units for another adventure, or to defend the Empire.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/29/2010 9:02:30 PM

Q-Ball

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May 6, 1942, Update:

Run,Canoe, Run!: It's official: The Indian Army is running. Or, to be more accurate, steaming away on the Indian Railways.

Madras is down to one unit, probably the one that can't move. That means that occasionally the citizens will riot and trash the industry; that's fine, because I don't have the fuel to run Madras AND Calcutta anyway. We'll take our time to get there, rather than lose more ships in an amphib landing on the CD guns. It's not worth stopping the riots by losing ships.

I will take Calcutta, though, if Dan evacuates it. There are 20 units there, but he withdrew the troops from Diamond Harbor (which we will take tommorow), and I suspect alot of those 20 units are boarding trains for the West.

This was probably the right move for Dan, standing and fighting was only going to delay me a couple weeks, and probably get alot of his guys killed. I am going to capture/overrun some odds and ends, but nothing really drastic.

That combat at Bezweda must have had an impact on him; he saw what a disaster it was for the Indian Division, and decided multiple repeats of that would be very bad.

Next Steps: I had alot of units prepping for Calcutta, expecting a siege. That's now likely off. Instead, we'll start preps for targets in the interior, though not sure how far into Russia, er, India, we'll go.

TRACKER is going to be very helpful, because I plan to skip or bypass as many cities that require garrisons as I can. For example, BANGALORE; I don't want it. It's not worth many points, and I don't want to garrison it. IIRC, the Allies get a Static Fort there, so they are stuck there. I'm leaving it alone. Same for TRIVURADUM, or whatever that base is on the South Tip, and as many other bases as I can reasonably skip.

OOPS: I forgot to mention, Dan knows I have CVs at Soerbaya; some Zeros escorted the daily milk-run training raid on Pamakasan. Thanks, guys! The nearest Allied fighter was only 50 or so hexes away. Smart!

So, he knows I have something there. I am going to have to make a demonstration along the Indian Coast to convince him I might have a CV over there (which I don't, other than HOSHO).

Production Notes: The HELEN is in full production; I am still builidng Sallys, but will stop soon, and I turned off the Lily a long time ago. I get TOJOS next month, not that I need them really, with the Allied air forces very quiet, or dying in India.

The JUNYO hit the water. I have a Love/Hate relationship with the JUNYOS. Is it a CV? Or a CVL? Do you run it with KB? Or not? It's got some armor....but not very much. Overall a very unsatisfactory design, but beggars can't be choosers.

Once YAMATO hits the water in 16 days, I am going to accelerate the last 3 UNRYUS; the first 3 are aleady accelerated, and will build in mid-1943. TAIHO should hit the water in 2/43; nice and early!

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/29/2010 9:32:23 PM

Mynok

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Junyos are decent for shipping raids. Not a lot risked and they have the torps so they can make some kills.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/29/2010 10:51:44 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

TRACKER is going to be very helpful, because I plan to skip or bypass as many cities that require garrisons as I can. For example, BANGALORE; I don't want it. It's not worth many points, and I don't want to garrison it. IIRC, the Allies get a Static Fort there, so they are stuck there. I'm leaving it alone. Same for TRIVURADUM, or whatever that base is on the South Tip, and as many other bases as I can reasonably skip.

While I agree with this sentiment, isn't it risky? In particular, are there any of these prospectively bypassed towns that will be receiving reinforcements in the near future? Don't some of the Indian units spontaneously 'emerge' from some of these cities? Could these get into your rear and cause havoc?

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/29/2010 11:07:47 PM

Nemo121

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The problem with Alfred's maths, which is impeccable as far as it goes, is that it doesn't take into account supply, port and airfield effects which act as a multiplicative effect and skew the finding such that the base numbers aren't all that useful.

As to what you should do:
You should never have invaded India unless you were planning, from Day 1, to go all the way. it is a bit late now but unless you try to go all the way you should just abandon the invasion and pull back into Burma or, at most, the Calcutta region. All or nothing, India isn't a place for half-measures.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 3:52:22 AM

Q-Ball

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Nemo: Perhaps; the objective in invading India wasn't to take the whole thing, but rack up enough points via bases and troops destruction to win auto-victory. Dan is probably doing the prudent thing and running, so the amount of troops I will destroy will probably settle in the 40K range; not insignificant, but not huge either.

I don't think India is takeable. But I don't think Australia is either, and Hawaii doesn't offer enough points for Auto-Victory; plus, it's a very very tough nut.

There is no obvious all-in knockout blow for the Empire. Pushing out into the Pacific is not appealing. Not sure what it cost me not going "all-in" at the beginning, because crossing the line of death and failing is worse than just taking 1/2 of India.

At least with this India incursion, I have accomplished the following so far:

1. Destruction of 1 UK and about 3 Indian Div equivalents, plus a bunch of smaller units
2. Attrition of the RAF pretty badly
3. Capture of HI and Oil/Fuel which will fuel war effort
4. Between the space created and losses, I should be able to blunt the effects of a UK/Indian counterattack through Burma. In fact, I highly doubt Dan will attempt to go that way unless it's just to fill space.

The conquest of Ceylon cost me 3 weeks in time, and netted 2 destroyed divisions; though the Allies got stronger those 3 weeks on the mainland, they also lost those units on Ceylon, which were not available for defense. Dan's main mistake in India was putting the 18th UK Division on Ceylon; he should have left Ceylon alone.

So, I don't regret going Ceylon first. Sure, it cost time, but netted returns in lost Allied troops, as well as much better protection for my supply lines to India. Ceylon is a real problem to an India conquest in allied hands.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 6:59:36 AM

erstad

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quote:

That means that occasionally the citizens will riot and trash the industry;

Nope, removed in a patch. They can damage the airfield/port, destroy supply, block supply movement, and cause a small loss in VPs, but industry should be OK.

< Message edited by erstad -- 9/30/2010 7:02:44 AM >

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 7:05:14 AM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: erstad

quote:

That means that occasionally the citizens will riot and trash the industry;

Nope, removed in a patch. They can damage the airfield/port, destroy supply, block supply movement, and cause a small loss in VPs, but industry should be OK.

Block supply movement - that's a nice touch.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 2:41:36 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

There is no obvious all-in knockout blow for the Empire. Pushing out into the Pacific is not appealing. Not sure what it cost me not going "all-in" at the beginning, because crossing the line of death and failing is worse than just taking 1/2 of India.

So, I don't regret going Ceylon first. Sure, it cost time, but netted returns in lost Allied troops, as well as much better protection for my supply lines to India. Ceylon is a real problem to an India conquest in allied hands.

I agree you needed to take Ceylon, for the loss of the shipyard to the Allies if nothing else.

A question re going for the whole banana. I have not attempted to do any math.

The "line of death" reenforcements are substantial, but are they that useful IF the Allies have low/no supply? By the time you trigger them, you would have the majority of the organic Indian supply generators in your grasp. If you use your naval superiority, Bombay can be interdicted pretty safely. That really leaves sneaking supply and fuel in through Karachi. Aden/Abadan only have slight organic supply generation, and Aden is closed to the Med. Supply from the south/Oz is a non-starter if you hold Ceylon, leaving CT-to-Karachi, a gauntlet to run if ever there was.

If you trigger the reenforcements, can you get north on the Bombay coast fast enough, while blockading the Mideast exit, to seige and take Karachi while his supply levels are low? After doing so, can you quickly get to Forts 3 there, making an unstaged amphib landing direct from Aden his only option in the medium term? That might be enough to hold to 1/43 and the auto-vic.

I know you want to move your carriers to the Pac and cause disruption and havoc, and holding them so far north grates. But I'm a bit with Nemo here--all-in or why try? You isolate Burma from the rest of the war at a cost of ten divisions and ignoring the rest of the theater? I don't see how that even gets you through 1943, let alone 1944, if he decides to try a DEI move, or a classic Mid-Pac.

I'm reading both AARs, but the above does not reveal anything CR is planning or has revealed. I'm just asking the question. Is the line of death really that dangerous if you've already crippled his supply mechanics?

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 9/30/2010 2:43:04 PM >

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 3:49:43 PM

Chickenboy

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I'm with Q-ball on this one and I think he summarized it well-half of India (plus Ceylon) is better than going for broke and losing. He's destroyed LCUs and built a major buffer-the midwar Burma and Sumatra Allied counteroffensive is off the table.

Provided that Q-ball is tending to his defenses (and he is), CR is in no position at this early juncture of the game to launch any sustainable offensive that is meaningful. By the time mid-1943 rolls around, India will have been decided one way or the other and Q-ball's Centpac defenses will be substantial and in depth. A DEI thrust as the Allies is much more difficult without the cloudcuckooland trail supply movement found in previous iterations of the game. Darwin is much less palatable as an Allied offensive springboard now.

There will be a sizeable delay between CR's defense of India and his prospects for mounting an offensive across the subcontinent. At the end of the day, Q-ball may not hold everything that he holds at his apex, but he can begin to fall back to defensive positions in a useful manner.

This was my suggestion in India-consider what may be useful to the IJ *IF* you didn't get Auto-victory. Maximize *THAT* and the effort may still be a worthwhile endeavor.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 4:30:16 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

I'm with Q-ball on this one and I think he summarized it well-half of India (plus Ceylon) is better than going for broke and losing. He's destroyed LCUs and built a major buffer-the midwar Burma and Sumatra Allied counteroffensive is off the table.

Provided that Q-ball is tending to his defenses (and he is), CR is in no position at this early juncture of the game to launch any sustainable offensive that is meaningful. By the time mid-1943 rolls around, India will have been decided one way or the other and Q-ball's Centpac defenses will be substantial and in depth. A DEI thrust as the Allies is much more difficult without the cloudcuckooland trail supply movement found in previous iterations of the game. Darwin is much less palatable as an Allied offensive springboard now.

There will be a sizeable delay between CR's defense of India and his prospects for mounting an offensive across the subcontinent. At the end of the day, Q-ball may not hold everything that he holds at his apex, but he can begin to fall back to defensive positions in a useful manner.

This was my suggestion in India-consider what may be useful to the IJ *IF* you didn't get Auto-victory. Maximize *THAT* and the effort may still be a worthwhile endeavor.

I agree that the HI uptick in particular is useful fro the Japanese. However, I'm not sure it's worth the logistic overhead it's going to take him to artfully withdraw from India the massive forces he's now got deployed there. Ten+ divisions and the better part of a year, especially when he didn't finish the PI yet, is a lot of sealift investment for clocking 3-6 Commonwealth/British divisions, and not crippling the RN to boot.

I also wonder if he hasn't gotten too "land focused" and forgotten the big naval advantages he has in the IO theater now, and the strategic mobility that provides. There's no reason he has to slog across central India with his main body once Madras and Calcutta are his. He can choose. CR has chosen to cede the naval game to him wholesale here, and instead Q is withdrawing the navy and making this a land war.

Darwin: I agree that the patches have made overland supply all but impossible, but by mid-1943 CR will have naval and air forces enough to make a Darwin sea build-up invulnerable. He has practice hopscotching in the DEI from his game with Miller. It's hard to counter.

My suggestion that Q. "go for it" is somewhat based on the all-Allied-player (which I am and so is CR) mindset that supply just happens. There isn't the normal Japanese player's habit of looking at industry, raw matl, etc. all of the time. The Japanese player guards supplies and thinks about them. The Allied player has supply to burn, and that makes for bad habits when in a strategic closet as India is if Madras and Calcutta are in Japanese hands, and the naval balance is all Japan's as well. Indian LCUs may fight like crap, but they still burn through supply doing it, and I'm not sure CR, or many Allied players, is really thinking through logistics in India if the ports are blockaded.

As for the long war, stopping up a British counter through Burma is nice, but not decisive. The USN/USA/USMC are decisive. The only way to stop them dead is to end the game before they get good.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 4:34:55 PM

TheLoneGunman_MatrixForum

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Would it be "gamey" to leave some of those Indian cities in Allied hands and simply let the uprisings in them take a toll on Allied VP and PP (do they lose PP for uprisings?)?

If you can't take the whole thing, make him pay for abandoning the sections he's going to need to hit you back eventually.

If PP is lost as well, you're effectively crippling his ability to transfer units elsewhere.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 4:46:06 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLoneGunman

Would it be "gamey" to leave some of those Indian cities in Allied hands and simply let the uprisings in them take a toll on Allied VP and PP (do they lose PP for uprisings?)?

If you can't take the whole thing, make him pay for abandoning the sections he's going to need to hit you back eventually.

If PP is lost as well, you're effectively crippling his ability to transfer units elsewhere.

No PP loss I'm aware of. VP loss goes to whomever owns the base and has insufficient garrison. Erstad above in the thread describes those potential losses. However, most of the garrison requirements outside the metropolises are very modest, and can be met with a split unit, police units, arty, cooks and band memebrs, etc. The VP losses, when they happen, are also very modest, 1-2 points and not every day.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 5:53:15 PM

Mynok

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Does he really even have to worry about a total withdrawal? From southern India and Ceylon probably, but eastern India is very defensible.

The divisions are mostly useless in the Pacific. Helpful in the DEI but that is a much more difficult route to go now, and it will take a while to build up forces sufficient to prosecute a DEI offensive from Darwin. The Japanese get plenty of more troops that can be directed to the DEI if that threat seems to be building.

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 6:02:09 PM

John 3rd

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Agree with Mynok's thoughts...

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RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) - 9/30/2010 6:18:35 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Does he really even have to worry about a total withdrawal? From southern India and Ceylon probably, but eastern India is very defensible.

The divisions are mostly useless in the Pacific. Helpful in the DEI but that is a much more difficult route to go now, and it will take a while to build up forces sufficient to prosecute a DEI offensive from Darwin. The Japanese get plenty of more troops that can be directed to the DEI if that threat seems to be building.

I'm certainly no Japanese play expert, never having done so. I agree that division-sized units are not useful on any but the largest islands (Marianas in particular.)

I disagree that Darwin is hard to build once north-facing security can be assured. By mid-1943 100-ship convoys from the WC are easily doable. They can be safely routed to Sydney, broken up into port-sized chunks, and fed into Darwin weekly. Once the Liberty-ship program cranks up, the Allies are floating in xAKs. Q is not attriting merchants now to any extent either. Overland to Darwin is a smokecreen IMO. Darwin can be built up rapidly once air strikes from Timor and carrier raids are a low-return activity for the Japanese. Will CR go to the DEI again? I have no idea.

On withdrawing to Chittagong/CB/Akyab, again, yes, it can be done, but if that is the strategy I'd withdraw deeper into Burma (major supply disadvantages for any attacker) rather than claim the few VPs forward defense offers.

But that still ignores the central issue of Why India? Destroying some LCUs isn't enough to make the Japanese player throw a whole year's worth of thrust away, at the cost of a substantial portion of Japanese sealift that could otherwise be carting resources and fuel home. India is very hard to do, and to my knowledge no one has yet. To me, it's a game, and worth a risk of loss to live on the edge, and push. Yet another grinding campaign a la history is boring. I think Q has a window of several more months where he could put CR to the test. Maybe he loses. So, start another game. But maybe it works too, and teaches Allied players not to sneer at the threat, and play hide&seek with their own navy. The best time to try a strategy is when "everybody knows" it can't be done. Cue Hannibal and the 'phants.

I'm telling you, I don't think CR has given two seconds thought to supply lines. Railroads, yes. Terrain, yes. Commanders, yes. Plane pools, oh, yes. But Indian supply just happens. It's not a housekeeping item. Before he knows he's in trouble he'll have lost his two big generators at Madras and Calcutta, and Aden could be isolated. At minimum it would cause a scramble with far more destructive possibilities than sieging every hamlet from Calcutta to Bombay.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 9/30/2010 6:23:53 PM >

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