Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

What does capturing Estonia quickly achieve? Soviet units will withdraw when pressured, Soviet casualties will probably be not all that high (compared to the fighting on other fronts, just like in real life) and the Soviet player knows exactly where you're going: Leningrad. Giving the impression that you're advancing on multiple fronts, without knowing where the blow will fall, might convince the Soviet player to keep some forces in Estonia (inland Estonia that is, not in ports waiting for the Baltic Fleet Taxi Service).

Aside from VP's for Tallinn, the Germans won't gain much if they capture Estonia, say, two turns earlier than in a scenario where the infantry clears the place without tank support.

For the Soviets, it's all about delaying the German arrival at the gates of Leningrad, and they can't really afford to leave approaches unexposed. Attacking slowly also has a psychological effect: many people are reluctant to abandon territory they control, even if it has zero strategic value or holding it actually poses a threat to their own war effort. The Germans have more mobility than the Soviets, and one good way of making use of that is by being everywhere at the same time from the Soviet perspective, whilst in reality they're pushing through a single sector.

If the Soviets are fighting at a place that isn't Leningrad or close to it, and are not inflicting noticeable losses on the Germans in the process, whilst the Germans are advancing elsewhere, the Soviets are doing something wrong.

It will be interesting to see how the AI would respond to a slow and methodical walk through Estonia. Personally, as the Soviets I'd probably strip the Baltic states of anything useful aside from a significant quantity of blocking and delaying units and form a wide layer of rings around Leningrad. In this scenario, Tallinn's VP's might be significant too, so it might be worth forming a ring around Tallinn too (which is easier than it would be for most other cities, as it can only be attacked from four surrounding hexes instead of six).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

I've tried about every angle of attacking the Leningrad area and there are basically 4 approaches. All 4 have their pros and cons. I tend to use one or more depending on how the situation develops. Heading north to Narva, especially with armor, puts a threat real close to Leningrad and can yield some quick rewards if the soviets aren't expecting it. If that area is not defended in depth, Leningrad will fall quick.

Same with the land bridge between the 2 lakes. Even though there is swamp there, a panzer corps that gets thru there can compromise the entire Pskov defense line further south and cut off the defenses along the Narva.

Another option is to go right to Pskov or near there and force that route. That tends to be the most common approach.

The last approach that works well for me is to divert the panzers down towards Velikie Luki linking up with panzers from AGC. This can really wreck havoc with the center defenses but then I turn 4th P north on the east bank of the Dvina and come up behind Pskov and then choose to either continue north or northeast.

Andy

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

quote:

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

This is a really useful discussion.   I plan to push wider on the Eastern flank, but only as far as Novgorod (your junction South of Lake Ilmen, Pieter, looks to be a very good spot for an ID to hold this long flank, but I am not planning on going any further East).  

Jon, I will clear Estonia  just as quickly as I can (and take Tallinn by storm -that's what Model's reinforced Corps is mustering for down by Riga),  but I was planning to use 18th army to do that, not my armour.   But maybe I can spare a division or two to help do it more quickly?!   The logic of losing an entire flank, and using the coast for that job instead of my precious landser, is inescapable for me.  

I also planned to slip some armour through the marshes, as you suggest Andy, to support the main drive of Tot and 8th Pz from Pskov.   (Does driving through marsh or rough country increase the chance of mechanical breakdown attrition, do you know?   No point arriving on time with no tanks!)

More this evening
Stuart

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ComradeP its about your flank. Do sweep some PzD's into Estonia and clear an 120 mile flank and reduce it to 30 miles or leave it open to a Soviet counter while you drive on Leningrad? You can't take Leningrad without your infantry, 4th PzG will become lunch if it goes it alone...Andy spoke above how he's tormented players by doing what youv'e recomended...

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Pieter, I take the point about not over-investing in clearing Estonia but I do think the 18th army will have a good jump off for Leningrad over the Narva (and that's where Model's corps will be, fresh and bristling with big guns).