RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor

Page: << < prev 6 7 8 [9] 10 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 6:54:32 PM

ChickenOfTheSea

Posts: 579
Joined: 6/7/2008
From: Virginia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Never accept malice as the answer where incompetence is possible. Incompetence is ALWAYS much more common (and likely) than malice. Malice requires work, incompetence just needs an opportunity!

Agree with you wholeheartedly, Steve. In situations like this, the first cut is always Occam's razor.

I am quite intrigued by Chicken o' the Sea's comments on the Chinese view of things. Factual interpretation is always internalized. And its analytical parameters are conceptually/culturally/linguistically based. Very much like the blind men describing the elephant. Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle wrote a sci-fi book about a race of aliens that evolved a class of beings whose sole purpose was to translate/mediate thoughts, attitudes, postures, etc .. between and among principals, thereby bridging conceptual gaps that lead to conflict through misunderstanding. Woof!

There are many words that resonate strongly in one language, that have absolutely no analog in another. Messages that initiate as 'soft' may well be received as 'adamant' because of simple linguistic/cultural misunderstanding at either the origination or reception end. I think Chicken o' the Sea's comments are fundamental to our understanding of not only the war, but also the environment of a portion of the world that we know only through sushi bars and Chinese take out.

Chicken o' the Sea, you be da man.

Well, if you look at the last century or so of social, political and cultural upheaval in China, it is easy to see how people can come to view the world as a series of conspiracies. I think the average Chinese person who lived through these periods felt like they had very little control over their lives.

_____________________________

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is. - Manfred Eigen

(in reply to JWE)

Post #: 241

RE: How to Judge Japan's Attack - 8/4/2010 7:38:37 PM

JWE

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChickenOfTheSea
Well, if you look at the last century or so of social, political and cultural upheaval in China, it is easy to see how people can come to view the world as a series of conspiracies. I think the average Chinese person who lived through these periods felt like they had very little control over their lives.

Which is the whole point, bro, and you got it wired pretty tight. Everything that transpires is viewed through the prism of experience and context of the observer. We use a working model (admittedly a minority view propounded by the wierdos in the sciences buildings) that looks at social inertia (population mass x desire as the velocity term, with d/dt being a resultant personality factor) as a primary determinant. The math is an awful lot like wavefront analysis of a tsunami.

I think like you. The 'average' person has much more impact than they are given credit for.

_____________________________

Home of DaBabes

(in reply to ChickenOfTheSea)

Post #: 242

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 8:05:37 PM

sprior

Posts: 8596
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline

quote:

Why, he got America into the European War, of course.

But how did FDR KNOW the Germans would declare war against the USA? They were under no obligation whatsoever to do so.

_____________________________

"Grown ups are what's left when skool is finished."
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.

(in reply to Phanatikk)

Post #: 243

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 9:20:47 PM

pompack

Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

quote:

Why, he got America into the European War, of course.

But how did FDR KNOW the Germans would declare war against the USA? They were under no obligation whatsoever to do so.

True. Without Hitler's declaration, I have this mental picture of FDR staring at Marshall saying " I can't believe it. We're in the wrong war at the wrong place and the wrong time"

(in reply to sprior)

Post #: 244

RE: How to Judge Japan's Attack - 8/4/2010 9:31:30 PM

AW1Steve

Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChickenOfTheSea
Well, if you look at the last century or so of social, political and cultural upheaval in China, it is easy to see how people can come to view the world as a series of conspiracies. I think the average Chinese person who lived through these periods felt like they had very little control over their lives.

Which is the whole point, bro, and you got it wired pretty tight. Everything that transpires is viewed through the prism of experience and context of the observer. We use a working model (admittedly a minority view propounded by the wierdos in the sciences buildings) that looks at social inertia (population mass x desire as the velocity term, with d/dt being a resultant personality factor) as a primary determinant. The math is an awful lot like wavefront analysis of a tsunami.

I think like you. The 'average' person has much more impact than they are given credit for.

And a bunch of "average people" who get together ARE a tsunami!

_____________________________

(in reply to JWE)

Post #: 245

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 10:06:35 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

quote:

Why, he got America into the European War, of course.

But how did FDR KNOW the Germans would declare war against the USA? They were under no obligation whatsoever to do so.

He was psychic!

(in reply to sprior)

Post #: 246

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 11:55:33 PM

Lecivius

Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline

I heard on some documentary on the Military channel theat Germany (and Italy) declaring war came as a surprise to the Japanese leaders.

I have nothing at all to back this up, so take it for what it's worth.

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 247

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/4/2010 11:58:16 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

To paraphrase Winston Churchill: "A fanatic is someone who will change neither his subject, his mind or his volume".

This thread should have stopped the moment its subject line was changed to "The Truth about Pearl Harbor". People who capitalize the word "Truth" are dangerous.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Lecivius)

Post #: 248

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 12:22:22 AM

Kwik E Mart

Posts: 2447
Joined: 7/22/2004
Status: offline

i like this thread...

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Kirk Lazarus: I know who I am. I'm the dude playin' the dude, disguised as another dude!
Ron Swanson: Clear alcohols are for rich women on diets.

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 249

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 12:23:56 AM

Kwik E Mart

Posts: 2447
Joined: 7/22/2004
Status: offline

...and so do i...

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Kirk Lazarus: I know who I am. I'm the dude playin' the dude, disguised as another dude!
Ron Swanson: Clear alcohols are for rich women on diets.

(in reply to Kwik E Mart)

Post #: 250

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 1:12:50 AM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

To paraphrase Winston Churchill: "A fanatic is someone who will change neither his subject, his mind or his volume".

This thread should have stopped the moment its subject line was changed to "The Truth about Pearl Harbor". People who capitalize the word "Truth" are dangerous.

Depends on what the 'Truth' is they are espousing. There is absolute Truth, but it doesn't come from humans.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 251

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 1:32:58 AM

Historiker

Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline

He knows best!

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 252

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 1:43:22 AM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Then you can do with it like I did with my copy, put it next to the Da vinchi code and the Von Danikan books!

Hey, the DV Code was bull, but don't you go hatin' on my Von Danikan!!! THOSE were PROVEN correct by the SGC and Jack O'Neill (with two ells.) It was on the moving picture box, and is thus correct and true.

[Insert Bronx Cheer here.]

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to AW1Steve)

Post #: 253

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 1:45:49 AM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Never accept malice as the answer where incompetence is possible. Incompetence is ALWAYS much more common (and likely) than malice. Malice requires work, incompetence just needs an opportunity!

This was always my problem with Tom Clancy novels. The gear ALWAYS worked. The comms ALWAYS got through. NOBODY was ever hung-over or seeing the doc about the clap when the Rooskies came over the hill.

You could tell he never served himself.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to AW1Steve)

Post #: 254

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 1:57:53 AM

Torplexed

Posts: 305
Joined: 3/21/2002
From: The Pacific
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58This was always my problem with Tom Clancy novels. The gear ALWAYS worked. The comms ALWAYS got through. NOBODY was ever hung-over or seeing the doc about the clap when the Rooskies came over the hill.

I always thought that if Clancy wrote up the Pacific War as a work of predictive fiction in the 1930s, those wretched Mk 14 magnetic exploders US subs were saddled with would have worked like a charm from day one.

And B-17s would have sunk every ship in sight.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 255

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 2:17:27 AM

Torplexed

Posts: 305
Joined: 3/21/2002
From: The Pacific
Status: offline

A coupla years ago astronomer Robert A. Braeunig wrote this blurb about people who believe the Apollo moon landings were faked. I think it applies equally well to the PH conspiracy crowd.

"Why do some people choose to believe in the moon-landing hoax? I wish I could provide a definitive answer to that question, however I suspect it is a combination of paranoia and, perhaps more importantly, feelings of inadequacy. The conspiracy believers create a delusional fantasy in which they are the heroes. Their ability to decipher the subtle clues and uncover the conspiracy is seen as a demonstration of their intellectual superiority. To the hoax believers the more complex and convoluted the theory, the smarter they feel for having figured it all out. To the rest of us the theory just doesn't make any sense."

(in reply to Torplexed)

Post #: 256

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 2:19:13 AM

AW1Steve

Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

...and so do i...

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!

_____________________________

(in reply to Kwik E Mart)

Post #: 257

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 8:42:37 AM

koontz

Posts: 274
Joined: 8/27/2009
Status: offline

....And we have never landed on the moon, the jews was behind that Hitler came to power, CIA was behind
9/11 etc etc....

or

_____________________________

Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics.

"All warfare is based on deception. There is no place where espionage is not used. Offer the enemy bait to lure him."

(in reply to AW1Steve)

Post #: 258

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 9:10:50 AM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

Where are the FACTS koontz? If you seek the TRUTH you will soon notice that:
There is no moon, the Viennese Acadamy of Art was behind that Hitler came to power, and the Texan oil lobby was behind 9/11.

I am sure Steve can provide the NAMES.

_____________________________

(in reply to koontz)

Post #: 259

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 9:14:21 AM

koontz

Posts: 274
Joined: 8/27/2009
Status: offline

I was ironic

_____________________________

Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics.

"All warfare is based on deception. There is no place where espionage is not used. Offer the enemy bait to lure him."

(in reply to LoBaron)

Post #: 260

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 9:15:57 AM

gladiatt

Posts: 2576
Joined: 4/10/2008
Status: offline

what amaze me is that there seem to be just one men against the whole forum

.

i think each one is allowed to think free ! that is a philosophical point of vue that many thinkers/philosophers/writers had fight for during 17th and 18th century.
This also mean that someone who is allowed to think freely and have it's own opinion should allow the othhers people to do the same thing.
So, you can try to express yourself and convince the others peoples, but once the others guys are keeping on their mind, well, just let them free ! that is respect.
I like blue. You like green and don't stand the blue color. OK, you try to explain me that green is better than blue.
Well, i hear you but i still like blue better. Just leave me with my liking and i leave you with yours.
That's the same thing about opinion of history facts.

I don't say one side is wrong and one is right. From my european point of vue, my opinion is a bit of this, and a bit of that.

And Phanatik has a behavior that remind me someone who lurked on the Thread a year ago or so, that could not admit that others people have others opinion. You think they are wrong ? Well, ok, let them be wrong and keep the thruth for you.
That is respect. People have the right to get things wrong if they wish.
I know what i am talking about, i always make things wrong

edited for spelling, sorry guys

< Message edited by gladiatt -- 8/5/2010 9:16:38 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to AW1Steve)

Post #: 261

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 9:17:04 AM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

Me too.

_____________________________

(in reply to koontz)

Post #: 262

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 9:31:19 AM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

what amaze me is that there seem to be just one men against the whole forum .

i think each one is allowed to think free ! that is a philosophical point of vue that many thinkers/philosophers/writers had fight for during 17th and 18th century.
This also mean that someone who is allowed to think freely and have it's own opinion should allow the othhers people to do the same thing.
So, you can try to express yourself and convince the others peoples, but once the others guys are keeping on their mind, well, just let them free ! that is respect.
I like blue. You like green and don't stand the blue color. OK, you try to explain me that green is better than blue.
Well, i hear you but i still like blue better. Just leave me with my liking and i leave you with yours.
That's the same thing about opinion of history facts.

I don't say one side is wrong and one is right. From my european point of vue, my opinion is a bit of this, and a bit of that.

And Phanatik has a behavior that remind me someone who lurked on the Thread a year ago or so, that could not admit that others people have others opinion. You think they are wrong ? Well, ok, let them be wrong and keep the thruth for you.
That is respect. People have the right to get things wrong if they wish.
I know what i am talking about, i always make things wrong

edited for spelling, sorry guys

Gladiatt while I agree that everyone is free to think what he wants, if someone expresses an opinion he has to
accept that this opinion will be weighted against other points of view, these viewpoints depending on where he chooses
to expresses that opinion.

This is why I don�t run around in conspiracy forums with my own opinions because I don�t think anyone there would give a damn,
I could not change anyone to believe something else than he likes and they would have a hard time convincing me that one of the
most adored complex "it was all a cunning plan" theories have a realistic chance of turning out right.
Basically I would be flamed out of the forum in no time. So I�d consider it a waste of time and energy.

This is why I am so deeply thankful that I found this forum a long time ago because there are people who have a natural
grasp for logical chains and practically everyone here is able to adapt his point of view in the face of reason.
That its 1 against the rest when it comes to such topics only confirms my viewpoint of this wonderful place in the internet.

_____________________________

(in reply to gladiatt)

Post #: 263

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 9:45:53 AM

gladiatt

Posts: 2576
Joined: 4/10/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

what amaze me is that there seem to be just one men against the whole forum .

i think each one is allowed to think free ! that is a philosophical point of vue that many thinkers/philosophers/writers had fight for during 17th and 18th century.
This also mean that someone who is allowed to think freely and have it's own opinion should allow the othhers people to do the same thing.
So, you can try to express yourself and convince the others peoples, but once the others guys are keeping on their mind, well, just let them free ! that is respect.
I like blue. You like green and don't stand the blue color. OK, you try to explain me that green is better than blue.
Well, i hear you but i still like blue better. Just leave me with my liking and i leave you with yours.
That's the same thing about opinion of history facts.

I don't say one side is wrong and one is right. From my european point of vue, my opinion is a bit of this, and a bit of that.

And Phanatik has a behavior that remind me someone who lurked on the Thread a year ago or so, that could not admit that others people have others opinion. You think they are wrong ? Well, ok, let them be wrong and keep the thruth for you.
That is respect. People have the right to get things wrong if they wish.
I know what i am talking about, i always make things wrong

edited for spelling, sorry guys

Gladiatt while I agree that everyone is free to think what he wants, if someone expresses an opinion he has to
accept that this opinion will be weighted against other points of view, these viewpoints depending on where he chooses
to expresses that opinion.

This is why I don�t run around in conspiracy forums with my own opinions because I don�t think anyone there would give a damn,
I could not change anyone to believe something else than he likes and they would have a hard time convincing me that one of the
most adored complex "it was all a cunning plan" theories have a realistic chance of turning out right.
Basically I would be flamed out of the forum in no time. So I�d consider it a waste of time and energy.

This is why I am so deeply thankful that I found this forum a long time ago because there are people who have a natural
grasp for logical chains and practically everyone here is able to adapt his point of view in the face of reason.
That its 1 against the rest when it comes to such topics only confirms my viewpoint of this wonderful place in the internet.

LoBaron, i fear i hadn't express myself correctly, and i apologize. I will try to be forgiven.

I am not saying that "the whole thread" is right or wrong. I read, and liked the argument and facts that each here explain.
That shouold enlight those like me who don't know exactly in details what happend at Pearl. That is a great mind training also.
That is also great to see people trying to argue in a polite and respectful way.
That's why , like you, i lurk on this forum since 2 years now. Yes, people are explaining logical events with real facts and reason. That's a way of thinking that try to use good sense, and to avoid "belief " or faith.
Faith is for God, i was once told. Facts are for science. History is a science, altough not perfect (i studied History for 7 years in University if someone wonder).

Now, if someone is all alone against the whole world, thinking that his belief, that no fact can back up, is the "truth", maybe he should leave the whole world free of being "wrong".

Don't know if now it is more clear : i never ever intended to tell that someone was wrong or right (although i have my opinion on the topic); just that sometime "leaving up" is better....

_____________________________

(in reply to LoBaron)

Post #: 264

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 10:05:15 AM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

Double misunderstanding here.�

My post was not intended as criticism, basically we have a similar opinion.

Maybe I just wrote an a bit more elabourate response to make up for posting crap in this thread over the last few pages to express
my amusement over such a point of view.
Not that I�m sorry for that, thats just the way I am when confronted with something ridiculous.

What is amazing though, even if the origin of a debate may be ridiculous, it can very well lead back to a path where it gets interesting
again. A debate�like the current one can contain�nice gems of information.�
As it already happened quite often in this thread.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 8/5/2010 10:07:22 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to gladiatt)

Post #: 265

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 10:16:14 AM

gladiatt

Posts: 2576
Joined: 4/10/2008
Status: offline

_____________________________

(in reply to LoBaron)

Post #: 266

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 12:00:49 PM

Phanatikk

Posts: 162
Joined: 10/22/2009
From: Nashville
Status: offline

Gee, I express a different opinion, so now I have a "behavior."

Maybe I'll just start another cockup by stating that a lot of individual facts from the Da Vinci Code were correct. Tying them all together is ify.

Ciao

(in reply to gladiatt)

Post #: 267

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 12:17:41 PM

sprior

Posts: 8596
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline

Because Brown was able to put "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" into novel form? Shame that book was discredited too...

_____________________________

"Grown ups are what's left when skool is finished."
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.

(in reply to Phanatikk)

Post #: 268

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 1:08:44 PM

xj900uk

Posts: 1340
Joined: 3/22/2007
Status: offline

Sorry, but I think everyone is reading too much into 'conspiracy' here.
For what it's worth, the US believed they were boxing the IJ into a corner, but they expected the IJ to behave like a western nation and either back down gracefully (at least for the short term) or else events would move towards a gradual declaration of war in the Spring of '42 (similar to the situation in the summer of Europe '39).
There was loads of information and speculation coming up from Washington which actually did very little to help their forces in the Pacific and PI. A surprise/sneak attack was not discounted, particularly after the translation/decoding of the '14-part' ultimatium that was coming back from the Japanese, and the fact that it finally mentioned a specific time (1pm Washington time, whihc was 8 am Hawaiian time) followed by instructions to destroy all of their decoding machines, vital documents etc was enough to raise eyebrows at the War OFfice and elsewhere. Important messages were sent out to everyone in the Pacific 'instructing officers and personnel to be on their guard as the actual significance of the deadline time was not yet known' but incredibly the PH notification was not received until nearly 3 hours after the attack due to somebody in the signals office not giving it a high enough priority (this is not a consipiracy, this is just good old fashioned plain incompetence layered upn yet more incompetence and complacency).
Finally, yes a few people in Washington thought the Japanese might do something really drastic with a surprise/sneak attack, after all Naval Intelligence could not confirm the location of their carrier fleet but had found some suspicious looking fleets going elsewhere south out of FOrmosa and in the South China Seas, but everyone thought it would be the PI that would get hit, not PH - that was a complete and utter surprise to everyone even the 'disaster mongers'

(in reply to sprior)

Post #: 269

RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor - 8/5/2010 1:25:46 PM

USSAmerica

Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phanatik

Gee, I express a different opinion, so now I have a "behavior."

Maybe I'll just start another cockup by stating that a lot of individual facts from the Da Vinci Code were correct. Tying them all together is ify.

Ciao

Not because you express a different opinion. If there are 5000 users on this forum, there are 5000 different opinions. The "behavior" is being unable to let it go and let other people have an opinion that is different from yours. It can be seen as "trolling" because it only becomes inflammatory.

The "behavior" looks like this (apologies to Steve