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RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/16/2010 3:26:25 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nicwb

Hard Sarge,

I like the refernce in the aboove screen shot to units getting renamed to Guards units - is that an "earned title" in the game ?


Yes.

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Post #: 31
RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/16/2010 9:33:48 PM   
Grisha


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Status: offline 		The Soviet tank armies ended up being the premiere instrument of Soviet operational exploitation, and their development spanned nearly the entire war. Starting off as a very unwieldy formation in 1942, the tank army by 1944 was a robust versatile formation, well suited for maneuver into German operational depths.

How does the game cover these formations (of which there were 6 by 1944)?

< Message edited by Grisha -- 8/16/2010 9:34:59 PM >

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RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 2:43:54 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		not sure how to reply to that question

but here is one of my SU Tank Armies

I use them for my break though, the Mech Corps is really nasty




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RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 5:04:11 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		The following rule was added last week to give the Tank Army a bonus:

When a motorized unit is performing an admin leader check, leaders of Tank Armies, Panzer Armies, or Panzer Corps involved in the admin leader check receive a +1 to their admin rating during the check. Among other things, Admin checks are made to determine MPs for the turn, and when checking repair of damaged elements.



Aside from this, the formation of very powerful Tank and Mech Corps take time, admin points and the evolving TOE of the units. From the manual:

Soviet Tank and Mechanized Corps: It takes 3 tank brigades to create a tank corps, and 3 mech and or motorized brigades to create a mech corps. Once built, they break down like a German division into 3 parts (in this case brigades) and may only build back up together. Soviet Tank and Mech corps will suffer a 25% experience loss from the existing units’ experience when they are first formed. There is a cost of 20 Admin points to form a Soviet Tank or Mechanized Corps. Broken down Soviet Tank or Mechanized Corps with brigades designated 1/2/3 may assign one support unit to each brigade. When the parent corps is first broken down, any attached support units will be divided up 1 per brigade. If the parent corps is reformed, all support units attached to the 1/2/3 brigades will once again be attached to the parent corps.

Designers Note: The major difference between tank & mechanized corps versus rifle and cavalry corps is that that tank/mech corps have unique TOEs they follow while rifle/cavalry corps are simply the sum of three divisions. Therefore while you can form a tank corps from three tank brigades, the TOE of a tank corps is not the same as the TOE of a tank brigade times three (i.e. tank corps contain combat elements not found in tank brigades).


Please keep in mind that the 3 part build-up break-down is an abstraction and does not match the actual parts that made the units. The key is that once the unit is created, it will take on the additional replacements needed to fill out the TOE of the Corps. Notice the large experience loss when the corps is formed. Over time, this can be built back up. Also, the 1942 Tank Corps are 1/2 to 2/3 the size of the later war Tank Corps, so they grow stronger over time.


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RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 9:45:05 AM   
janh

 

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Status: offline 		Do I read correctly that the above Tank Army only has 52 tanks?  Depleted?

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Post #: 35
RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 10:15:48 AM   
wosung

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Soviet Tank and Mechanized Corps: It takes 3 tank brigades to create a tank corps, and 3 mech and or motorized brigades to create a mech corps.




1. So you decided to leave out an organic brigade for each corps type?

IRL wasn't it 3 tank brigades plus a mech/mot brigade for a tank corps, and 3 mech and or motorized brigades plus a tank brigade for a mech corps... Plus several organic regiments with assault guns? No small difference.

2. About German tank strengths end of June 1944:
Your figures “4971 (4819)” (22.6.1944), in post #6 of this thread, are too high.

AG North (end of June 1944):
30 tanks, 206 assault guns (plus 12th Panzer Division, maybe 100-150 tanks max., which end of June, after the beginning of Bagration, left for AG Centre.

AG Centre (22.6.1944):
118 tanks, 452 assault guns

AG Nordukraine (end of June 1944):
1510 tanks and assault guns (some 1300, 86%, ready)

AG Südukraine (11.7.1944):
424 tanks, 390 assault guns, 40 assault howitzers

altogether:
some 3270 tanks, assault guns, assault howitzers for the time around the start of Bagration.
Operating with the above micro-readiness-rate of 86% overall you’ll get some 2812 ready tanks, assault guns and assault howitzers.

Source: Karl-Heinz Frieser (ed.), Die Ostfront 1943/44. Der Krieg im Osten und an den Nebenfronten [The East Front. The war in the East and on the minor fronts], Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Vol. 8, Munich 2007, pp. 532, 624, 687, 736.

BTW: I'm curious about Russian unit density in late war short of Berlin. Three corps plus support per hex seems a bit low.

Regards



< Message edited by wosung -- 8/17/2010 10:17:14 AM >

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Post #: 36
RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 10:44:52 AM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

Do I read correctly that the above Tank Army only has 52 tanks?  Depleted?


No that is just the HQ for the tank army.

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Post #: 37
RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 11:38:36 AM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

1. So you decided to leave out an organic brigade for each corps type?

IRL wasn't it 3 tank brigades plus a mech/mot brigade for a tank corps, and 3 mech and or motorized brigades plus a tank brigade for a mech corps... Plus several organic regiments with assault guns? No small difference.


Based on what has been said/shown thus far, the extra brigades will just be added to the overall TOE, but the stacking limit is 3 units/hex, which also means the merge limit is 3 units/hex. Early on, you would as you say have a Corps that could have enough men to have 4 brigades on paper split into 3 brigades. Late war Corps could have around 6 brigades if SU units and possible heavy tank support is included, so that would be 6 brigades splitting up into 3 brigades.

I'm guessing that the Corps would split up just like the Panzer divisions, so they would form combined arms brigades, not Mechanized, Motorized Rifle or Tank brigades when splitting up. That's similar to how a Panzer division break down into 3 predominantly infantry based regiments with possibly around 50-75 tanks each, not into two Motorized Infantry/PzG regiments and a Panzer regiment, with the artillery, AA, AT, recon and pioneer assets split between them.

-

As a question: it has been mentioned several times that motorized >brigades< can form a Mechanized Corps. What about motorized divisions? Do you have to create brigades to form a Corps?

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 8/17/2010 12:40:46 PM >

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RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 1:01:55 PM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
I'm guessing that the Corps would split up just like the Panzer divisions, so they would form combined arms brigades, not Mechanized, Motorized Rifle or Tank brigades when splitting up. That's similar to how a Panzer division break down into 3 predominantly infantry based regiments with possibly around 50-75 tanks each, not into two Motorized Infantry/PzG regiments and a Panzer regiment, with the artillery, AA, AT, recon and pioneer assets split between them.


That would be a very sound implementation of splitting formation. Formation of mixed "Kampfgruppen", combat teams, was essentially this was one of the major innovations of German doctrine that was later adapted by allied and russian armies. It was a crucial factor giving the Germans high flexibity and substantial force despite smaller numbers.

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Post #: 39
RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 1:10:11 PM   
Hard Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

Do I read correctly that the above Tank Army only has 52 tanks?  Depleted?


no, you are reading the info the wrong way, those 52 tanks, are with the HQ, that is not counting the tanks that are in the 3 units assigned to the HQ (let me see if I can find it and some screens)

Okay, here is the attachements to the Tank Army HQ, that is where the 52 tanks are from, the Tank Reg




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RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 1:10:56 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		here is the Tank Corps




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RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 1:11:43 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		the Mech Corps (this is the bad boy of the SU Armies)




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RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 1:12:54 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		and the Light SU unit

now make a stack with those and you got a nasty little punch coming




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RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 1:14:11 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		and remember, those have been in combat, so, they are not at total full strength (they pretty good shape, but could be better)




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RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 1:37:22 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		from some of the other questions, I think those screen shots should answer how the Corps are set up

for tank numbers, I think part of that, is we are counting AFV, and not tanks, so while numbers may look wrong for tanks, other types are being counted as AFVs

not sure for the other Campaigns, but I know that the 41 matches almost to the dot, the numbers I was able to find (and I have a pretty good set of books on the Russian Front)

but back to the war

as I said, I lost a lot of screen shots, so I have gotten a bit beyound where I last talked

so, it is turn 9 and here are some of the numbers and what not

I think I had said, I wanted to hammer on Finland and AGC, get what I could get moving into Romyland, and just to keep pressure where I could along the rest of the line

Finland turned into a mess, I broke though and trapped a good part of the Fins, and then they moved and cut my supply lines, then I opened my lines and trapped them again, and again, and again, but, I was able to wear them down, before they could wear me down, as of week 9, Finland is about to break

AGC has taken a pounding, very, very nasty, I am able to make some pockets, others they are able to break out of, but, the pressure is such, that to break out, makes a chance for a bigger pocket later, and on and on, the Center is breaking, and all pressure anywhere else on the line, will pay off

and then, it happens, the Romy line breaks, and the Romy surrender and change sides in the 9th week, very bad break and timing for the Ge forces, troop sent to try and help the line, end up trapped deep behind the Russian lines, my short breakthough's are able to shift and my the pockets even deeper and HARDer to break out of, 23 Divs are trapped in the south, 7 Armor

that is going to hurt

my 3 Tank Armies I was using to put pressure on, are able to shift fronts, and make a major breakthough, and drive into Poland (and my Polish Army is later created)

disaster in the south, soon followed by another one in the center, 24 Div's are trapped, in fact, the only thing saving the German right now, is I have over ran my supply line, and my units deep into Poland, can't keep driving, and will have to wait for the supply line and other troops to catch up (which will allow the German a chance to reset his lines, but they will be much weaker now)

in the north, disaster is avoided by 10 miles !!!, or AGN, would be joining the troops on the march to the POW cages in the East






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RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 1:40:53 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		over all losses as of turn 9




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RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 1:48:55 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		as you can see, the numbers are really kind of close, it is the surrenders that tilt the scales, KIA and WIA are very close, along with AFV losses (and again, a lot of the Axis AFV losses are going to be captured, broken down, while the SU losses are going to be burnt out husks)

air losses

where the LW has fighters, it controls the air, but they don't have fighters everywhere, but they have to try and supply there troops and make some raids, then I have the numbers to make them pay

plus, I try to hurt them where ever I got the chance, I can put up 1000 planes, while the LW is lucky to put up 120, after a fight or so, those will start to wear down, once I catch you on the ground, I am going to make you pay

in that screen, I finally over whelmed a AF in Finland, had a good Gruppen of 190's who had been making my life pretty lousy, I wore them down, along with the 190 Fs based there, and then over ran the base !!!

the Fin and LW forces in Finland are Kaput




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RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 1:50:46 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Units KIA while looking bad, is not too shabby, yet, the disasters are to come




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RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 2:03:00 PM   
Great_Ajax


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Status: offline 		Tank strengths were input directly from Jentz 'Panzer Truppen' as of June 1944. The AFV category includes more than just tanks and stugs as it also includes all of your tank destroyers and I believe it also includes armored recon vehicles and perhaps and self propelled howitzers as well.

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Soviet Tank and Mechanized Corps: It takes 3 tank brigades to create a tank corps, and 3 mech and or motorized brigades to create a mech corps.




1. So you decided to leave out an organic brigade for each corps type?

IRL wasn't it 3 tank brigades plus a mech/mot brigade for a tank corps, and 3 mech and or motorized brigades plus a tank brigade for a mech corps... Plus several organic regiments with assault guns? No small difference.

2. About German tank strengths end of June 1944:
Your figures “4971 (4819)” (22.6.1944), in post #6 of this thread, are too high.

AG North (end of June 1944):
30 tanks, 206 assault guns (plus 12th Panzer Division, maybe 100-150 tanks max., which end of June, after the beginning of Bagration, left for AG Centre.

AG Centre (22.6.1944):
118 tanks, 452 assault guns

AG Nordukraine (end of June 1944):
1510 tanks and assault guns (some 1300, 86%, ready)

AG Südukraine (11.7.1944):
424 tanks, 390 assault guns, 40 assault howitzers

altogether:
some 3270 tanks, assault guns, assault howitzers for the time around the start of Bagration.
Operating with the above micro-readiness-rate of 86% overall you’ll get some 2812 ready tanks, assault guns and assault howitzers.

Source: Karl-Heinz Frieser (ed.), Die Ostfront 1943/44. Der Krieg im Osten und an den Nebenfronten [The East Front. The war in the East and on the minor fronts], Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Vol. 8, Munich 2007, pp. 532, 624, 687, 736.

BTW: I'm curious about Russian unit density in late war short of Berlin. Three corps plus support per hex seems a bit low.

Regards





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Post #: 49
RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 2:37:42 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Breakthough by the 1st, 3rd and 4th Tank Armies

the Front to the North of them is still Static, or it would of been nasty

think the front is about to collapse, think there may be more troops in Germany refitting then on the front lines




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RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 3:28:42 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Andy says I make lousy pockets, but...

oh so close




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RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 3:29:37 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		and another almost




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Post #: 52
RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 3:31:30 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		but some of them work, none of them are air tight, but the enemy is going to have work to break them all, and if they do, then they are in place, for the next pocket to be formed, and so on and so on




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RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 3:35:35 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		I trapped 12, some broke into the open, are now in trouble of being pocketed this turn, and the hunt goes on

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RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 3:37:57 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		week 12, Finland and Slovakia give up the fight

war is going down hill fast




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RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 4:56:09 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Sept 7th, Warsaw falls to the SU, Germany is entered, 11 Div surrender, massive pockets are formed, if they can't break out, the entire front line is shattered

from the map, looks like there are more Divs on the German border then on the frontline


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RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 5:20:07 PM   
Grisha


Posts: 355
Joined: 5/11/2000
From: Seattle
Status: offline 		Regarding the tank armies, thanks for the response all!


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Post #: 57
RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 5:29:09 PM   
Grisha


Posts: 355
Joined: 5/11/2000
From: Seattle
Status: offline 		Btw, Hard Sarge, Soviets didn't go for huge pincer maneuvers on purpose. It was inefficient for one. Better to go for lots of smaller ones. This way reduction of encircled units was quicker due to size and greater systemic disruption of command network/infrastructure. A random thought here :)



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Post #: 58
RE: Alpha Test Late War Scenario-1944/45 - 8/17/2010 6:45:08 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		I not really showing how I go about things, but I tend to go for smaller pockets, and then try to combine them, so more of a double envelopment idea

most times, when I do get a large pocket, it is more a movement trap, vs a solid wall (I think a lot of Jon's pockets would be more of the solid wall type)




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