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RE: European Theatres of Operations

 
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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 8/24/2010 10:49:31 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 82ndtrooper

Not much I can comment on yet. I am very eager to see how this plays out though. As you can see my forces in France appear to be very formidable. It looks like Germany will have a real hard time taking France but I just don't know how well the french will perform. Their war footing is only at 45% I think, And I don't know how much that will effect their combat effectiveness. They may collapse fast.

I am very curious about how the air war will work out in both land and naval. I want to find a German fleet and attack it haha.

The intercept range of most fighters is around 12 if i remember right so anywhere you bomb you will have to deal with interceptors, that should make it very interesting.

I am keeping roughly 30% of the British air force in Britain to simulate what happened historically. I want to have enough in reserve to defend the home islands.

hopefully next turn I can start producing units again, I really need to build up a army in England asap. as it is I have no British land units to help France out with. so what you see in France is pretty much it.

I also cant wait to see how North Africa works out.







France looks strong, but don't let that fool you, with a war footing of 45% thier combat effectiveness is only 73% (could be 72% I forget how it rounds). The Germans start out at 90% combat efficency and could easly be upto 100% by now. You can check the exact numbers in the "Peoples" section of the statistics, I believe.

Also the German Army should be pretty big at this point. Furthermore, most of thier troops should have an exp edge over you. Thier starting Army units all have 50 exp...Frances are only 20-30, I think. Depending upon how Poland went for them, they might be more or less...depending on how much experience they gained and how many losses they needed to fill with replacements.

I think most players will end up doing better then France did historicaly....it's hard to reproduce the level of strategic and operational impotence that the French High Command exhibited historicaly with players that have the benefit of hindsight. Unlike your historical counter-parts, you won't be expecting to fight WWI all over again..... and you probably won't commit your entire strategic reserve against a feint on the first day of the battle. I tried to simulate that a bit with the low war footing and the French HQ's having minimal staff...but I didn't want to go overboard and handicap the French position to the point it was completely hopeless, as that would be no fun to play.

As it is, the Germans should win unless their player is really screwing up...and the Allied player is really playing a top notch game. However, if BOTH players are playing well...France will probably fall more slowly then it did historicaly...I'm guessing it'll last the summer and go down sometime during that autumn.

< Message edited by GrumpyMel -- 8/24/2010 10:55:50 PM >

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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 8/29/2010 12:58:13 AM   
Bombur

 

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-Denmark is now fully liberated. The Luftwaffe risked an air raid against French units to test the enemy air defenses. While we easily beat the obsolete French fighters (a mix of P-36´s, Gloster Gladiators, MS-406 and Hurricanes), destroying 6 planes with the loss of two Bf-109´s, the bomber losses were heavy (2 He-111 and 2 Ju-87).

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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 8/30/2010 4:54:23 AM   
82ndtrooper


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From: tennessee
Status: offline 		Yes I found this air combat very interesting.
total loses where 6 planes each but the type of planes lost has me puzzled. It seems that my fighters where intent on attacking the bombers and your fighters attacked them. since bombers are more expensive I guess I came out ahead in this fight but it doesn't bode well for me in the future. there was some flak there and the highest xp of my fighter groups was 28, so that may account for the heavy fighter loses. While I expected the obsolete fighters to fair poorly I am disturbed by the loses to my hawker hurricanes.
It looks like I can expect heavy fighter loses.




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< Message edited by 82ndtrooper -- 8/30/2010 4:55:44 AM >

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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 8/30/2010 5:10:41 AM   
GrumpyMel

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 82ndtrooper

Yes I found this air combat very interesting.
total loses where 6 planes each but the type of planes lost has me puzzled. It seems that my fighters where intent on attacking the bombers and your fighters attacked them. since bombers are more expensive I guess I came out ahead in this fight but it doesn't bode well for me in the future. there was some flak there and the highest xp of my fighter groups was 28, so that may account for the heavy fighter loses. While I expected the obsolete fighters to fair poorly I am disturbed by the loses to my hawker hurricanes.
It looks like I can expect heavy fighter loses.





You didn't do too horrible considering, but the Luftwaffe is pretty strong starting out. Depending upon what your War Footings are that could effect the combat as well. The hawker is a decent plane....but the BF-109 has a definate edge over it. Your Spits have an edge over the 109's but of course are more expensive. I'm guessing that his pilots probably had an exp edge as well....Luftwaffe starting forces have 50 exp, and of course he had the opportunity to gain more in Poland if he used them. His replacements don't start out with any more exp then yours though.... so that experience gap will probably disappear over time...unless he is very carefull about keeping his ace pilots alive.

Historicaly, the RAF's doctrine was to have the Spits engage and draw off Luftwaffe escort figters while the Hawkers went after the bombers. Of course the Luftwaffe was trying to prevent that from happening so it didn't always work out that way.

The Hawkers were a real workhorse for the RAF in the early war....and they did have plenty of air victories against 109's... but it definately was an uphill struggle for them. I think you'll see that in the game as well.... you're Hawkers will score victories against the 109's but one on one, they'll generaly get worse then they give. Thier numbers in the game are actualy better against bombers then the Spits, this reflects history as well. The Hawkers were very rugged and also had a very stable gun platform.... against bombers this was a little more important then the Spits advantage of speed and agility....which were more important in dogfighting.





< Message edited by GrumpyMel -- 8/30/2010 5:22:31 AM >

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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 8/30/2010 5:29:03 AM   
82ndtrooper


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Status: offline 		Oh I am not complaining, I am analyzing. 

I defended with 11 fighters and 2 light flak.
I find it interesting that I killed exactly 2 each of each type of plane he attacked with. That is what has me puzzled. I would have expected to have killed more of one type say the med bombers or more fighters. and I cant figure out if my flak killed any of them.

for instance if I had killed 4 fighters and 1 stuka , then I could assume that my fighters went after his fighters and the flak took out the stuka. the way it turned out though I have  no idea.  I wonder about this due to the war footing aspect. I am trying to decide if my best bang for the buck is to build more flak or if its worth investing in french planes with such a low war footing. England is only capable of building so many planes and I need to do something from the french production to beef up the air defenses. I don't want to build a bunch of expensive french planes that will just be cannon fodder.

also if a med or heavy bomber is used in a air strike like a dive bomber will light flak defend against it ?
and are the combat values for bombers only accurate when doing bombing raids and not air-strikes ? or are they the same no matter what type of attack ?


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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 8/30/2010 3:58:36 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

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Status: offline 		As far as I l know, the engine can't differentiate defense values by mission type, just SFT type. Light flak is designed for defense against fighters and strike craft (like the Stuka) while Heavy Flak is designed for defense against level bombers....presumably thier ground attacks are more like carpet bombing...attacking from altitude.

Both types of Flak defend about half as well against the opposite type of craft. Also to note that level bombers generaly only attack half as well against ground units as a dedicated ground support plane does... although they have better strategic damage numbers. So I think there is a bit of a trade off going on.

I used the targeting preference numbers straight out of vanilla AT, so no changes there. I'm not 100% up on the details of how AT handles air combat. However if I'm correct in my assumptions, Fighters are regarded as "front line" units and bombers (and most strike craft) as rear area...meaning your fighters have to achieve a "break through" to engage the enemy bombers. I don't remember exactly what the targeting preference numbers are....but I assume that the wouldn't be skewed heavly enough that fighters would completely ignore enemy bombers in preference to escorts if they did get a "break through".

The numbers from that combat kinda seemed to make sense to me... You had more fighters up in the air then he had escorts... so some of your guys were able to get past his escorts and score some victories against the bombers. At the same time, his fighters were better quality then yours...so chewed up the ones they did engage. It'd be nice to see more of the details of that resolution, as we don't know exactly what killed what.... but I wouldn't be surprised if your flak took down 1 or more of the Stukas...since Stukas are dedicated ground support craft, they would be vulnerable to ground fire from light flak.

I do know that when I fly unopposed missions, occasionaly I'll loose a plane or two to flak if it's present.



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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/2/2010 1:49:21 AM   
Bombur

 

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Status: offline 		The war against BENELUX started. Advance was slow, but kill rate was 80:1 in the land battles, howver, the lack of air opposition against the first raids resulted in an unescorted raid that was intercepted by throngs of Hurricanes, with the loss of 3 modern level bombers.
I fear the Lufwaffe will be unable to keep air superiority.....

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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/2/2010 9:03:56 PM   
82ndtrooper


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Status: offline 		I tried a air strike on a forward panzer unit and the result was dreadful, the first strike I lost about 7 Hurricanes and a couple strike aircraft and didnt kill anything in fact I dont think I even lowered the units readiness any.




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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/2/2010 9:05:29 PM   
82ndtrooper


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Status: offline 		So I decided to hit it with everything I had in range since I hoped his fighters would be low on readiness after defending the first strike.
my strike did get through this time and hurt the panzer unit but my air-force took terrible losses.




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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/2/2010 9:07:51 PM   
82ndtrooper


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Status: offline 		here is a pic of the situation




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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/2/2010 9:10:58 PM   
82ndtrooper


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Status: offline 		I am losing the air-war fast just as happened historically. whats interesting about my air strikes is I had a lot of outdated planes on the second one and they survived but my Hurricanes got creamed. I can not sustain these kind of losses.

the results




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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/2/2010 9:14:12 PM   
82ndtrooper


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Status: offline 		I lost 30 planes total  But i learned something for next time i play the west.

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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/3/2010 3:45:12 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

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Status: offline 		Ouch...bad day for the RAF!

Target selection within an SFT is pretty much random, I think... so it's probably just that your Hawkers got unlucky and ended up drawing more fire then your earlier models.

Still, a little surprising that the results were so lop-sided given the numbers of craft involved... maybe bad luck...or maybe the experience is really making a difference.

I note from the casualties that he appears to be flying some 109-F's already... so that could be a factor as well depending on how many he had involved.

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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/3/2010 5:53:29 PM   
82ndtrooper


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From: tennessee
Status: offline 		well I don't know it seems every air fight my hurricanes have gotten creamed, so I am going to make spitfires and Gloster gladiators and see how that works out.
Right now I am better off either spending more for the spitfires or spending less for the older models.

I made a lot of hurricanes because historically they where the RAF workhorse and this is a test game so its a platform to try somethings out. once i can upgrade them they may make all the difference. Also it appears that the hurricanes take all the fire allowing the older models to survive and do some damage so ill try mixing things up and adding multiple types of planes to my squadrons.
all is not lost I filled up most of the gaps with my reserves but not all I will have to really focus on plane production, which will slow down my PP's.

also of note one of my TBD got killed but none of the faireys got killed, so it seems that the newer models take more fire.


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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/4/2010 12:21:54 AM   
Bombur

 

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Status: offline 		82nd trooper: I wouldn´t take any conclusion about relative plane strenght based on these combats. There is a lot of luck involved...Your Hurricanes suffered massive losses now, but they made most of your fighter forces. My Bf-109´s also took relatively heavy losses. I lost about 1/4 of my fighter forces in only one turn. It´s likely that the Spitfires will do well against my 109´s, but you will also have less fighters.

The Blitzkrieg isn´t going as expected. The enemy is well entrenched and prepared, and even when we have massive air superiority, we are losing planes to AA fire. Land losses are small except for the tanks destroyed by aircraft, but we didn´t find enemy armour. the 88´s are being ferried to front line units but these huge weapons could actually slow the advanced if I fail to provide them with enough transport. I have the bad feeling this will degenerate in another WWI trench war...

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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/6/2010 12:31:38 AM   
Bombur

 

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Status: offline 		Turn 25.

Terrible news for the Germans. The enemy is well prepared and entrenched, and our advance on the Low countries stalled. Even worse, the enemy started a counteroffensive across the Maginot Line. They gained some ground but the Luftwaffe inflicted heavy losses to two tank divisions. French and British bombers are also attacking Germany cities. Hamburg and Nuremberg were heavily hit, but the allied paid a heavy price in planes. No less than 15 enemy planes were lost, against 3 Luftwaffe fighters. This seems to be influencing the tactical operations before the last ground attack missions from the Luftwaffe found little opposition. The Blitzkrieg now is over and we will have a long attrition war.

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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/7/2010 7:39:43 AM   
82ndtrooper


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From: tennessee
Status: offline 		Grumpy
my engineer units cannot build roads or repair bridges.
good thing i found out before I blew more bridges. It would be bad if bombur couldnt repair them or build new ones.

I wont blow any more bridges bombur.


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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/7/2010 9:59:31 PM   
Bombur

 

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Status: offline 		Don´t worry, my engineers repaired a bridge.
The things improved somewhat to Germany, as the heavy losses suffered by Allied air forces resulted in the Luftwaffe achieving complete air superiority over France. The last raids were opposed only by Gloster Gladiators, which fell like flies to our BF-109´s. The offensive from Maginot line units also stalled. The bad news are that, despite heavy losses suffered by the allied units, we were just able to take one hex in the last 2 turns....

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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/8/2010 2:14:46 AM   
82ndtrooper


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From: tennessee
Status: offline 		ok I can repair bridges also just need 100 ap. But i cant build a road anywhere.

I had to pull my airforce back and regroup, my loses where unbearable. I had you outnumbered in 90% of the battles and I still took 2or3 to 1 losses. I lost over 30 hurricanes alone not counting the other planes. all total my aircraft losses are around 70+ planes. The only bright side is I haven't lost a single spitfire I just wish I had built more of them early on.
The hurricanes performance is horrible at best and it doesn't perform anywhere near what its stats indicate. It needs a small HP bump I would think. BUT i am still making a few and we will see what they do once they are upgraded to level II.
yes the glosters fell like flies to your 109's but so do the hurricanes and the glosters are 1/3 the price plus they are all french so they have a low war footing which hurts them in combat.

The Belgium army has performed better than expected and has been able to really slow down the axis advance due to the rivers. The german Army could do much better than it is if they where willing to accept heavy losses, for now they seem tentative which has allowed the allies to just keep digging in. However Intel reports claim that the Germans are moving a lot of artillery to the front which could change the situation.


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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/8/2010 3:44:26 AM   
GrumpyMel

 

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Status: offline 		I believe I turned road building off for the scenerio...as I wanted strategy to focus on the actual geography, including roads. Makes some strategic issues more important. Bridges should be repairable and blowable though.

Sounds like your air force is getting creamed. Not sure why. The stats on the Hurricanes aren't horrible...the 109's outclass them, but with similar experience and war footing they should be able to do some damage to the 109-E's even if they come away with the short end of the stick in 1 on 1 engagements.

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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/8/2010 4:44:13 AM   
82ndtrooper


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Joined: 12/19/2008
From: tennessee
Status: offline 		well here is a screen shot of one of my last bombing attacks. its typical of my overall losses. I sent in plenty of escorts and bombers and got creamed by a defending force 1/3 my size.




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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/8/2010 4:45:49 AM   
82ndtrooper


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Joined: 12/19/2008
From: tennessee
Status: offline 		here is the report for that attack




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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/8/2010 5:05:26 AM   
82ndtrooper


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Status: offline 		as you can see I lost 16 planes and he lost 3. My fighters outnumbered him 2 to 1
the only reason more hurricanes didn't get killed is I was almost out of them by this attack. I had about 5 or 6 spitfires in this attack also.

but this is what I have experienced on every attack and defense.  I just get destroyed.
I finally had to pull the RAF back before it was wiped out of existence.

Now I am not complaining and this is a fair comparison to what happened historically in the first year of the war. And like I said I haven't lost a single spitfire.  But I do believe that the hurricanes are a little more fragile then their stats show. If I play the allies again I will make twice as many spitfires and half as many hurricanes to start with. Out of 35 to 40 hurricanes about 6 survived.  

I hope as I tech the planes up things even out a little because I cant afford 5 to 1 losses on air strikes and bomber raids.

I wonder if I should try just sending in smaller waves of fighters first to engage the defenders and then send in the bombers? Maybe I am taking such heavy losses because I am sending them all in together , I just don't know.


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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/8/2010 3:23:47 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

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Status: offline 		That is surprising. I've played 2 test games against myself so far up through the fall of Paris. In the first one (same version as you're playing). The RAF was winning against the Luftwaffe with a mix of 50% Spits and 50% Hawkers.

In the second one, the RAF had been loosing... though not nearly as badly as you had been.... up until the last turn or two. However, as the Allies...I went for Aircraft Level II Tech...and once I got the Spit V's and Typhoons... things have turned around rather dramaticaly in the last couple turns.... though I definately was running into problems before then.

I will note though, that I raised Britains War Footing every opportunity I had... so by the time France heated up...they were pretty much on par with the Germans. I also made sure not to fly with low readiness.... and I tried to fly some "safe" missions with fresh pilots so they got a little experience first before tossing them against the Luftwaffe.

As a result...there were a couple turns during the fight when I didn't fly combat missions or run intercept in order to give these forces a chance to better recover.

When I put up French or Minor aircraft, with thier low war footings (In the new version I couldn't afford to raise these much and raise the UK at the same time...which is exactly the result I was hoping for)... thier planes got roundly creamed whenever they flew against opposition...but that's pretty much as it should be.

I'm not adverse to raising the Hawkers stat's a little if they are underperforming... as they should be a decent plane... even if overmatched by the 109-E. Although I'm not entirely convinced the stats are the problem at this point.

Maybe I'll try to put together an "air combat simulator" version of the scenerio...just to test out plane performance to see that it is where ut is supposed to be.

I'll note that Bombur appears to have upgraded to the 109-F's though (Aircraft Tech II). Which would put your Hawkers even deeper in the hole then they would be against the 109-E's.... maybe that's a good part of what's going on as well. If he's got 109-F's and especialy FW-190A's out there right now.. I would expect the Hawkers to be running into problems... though possibly not as much as they seem to be from your results.

What's the UK's war footing if you don't mind my asking...and what sort of experience/readiness do the planes you are sending up have?

These could be playing into the results as well.

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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/8/2010 7:41:56 PM   
82ndtrooper


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Status: offline 		UK's war footing is 99% and has been for 4 turns. France is at 57%.

this is what I did.
I used Canada's production to supplement my naval forces.
I used England's production to build an air force and raised its war footing as rapidly as I could.
I stripped units from the existing French armies to make a nice mobile Armor force to counter attack with.
then I used Frances production to replace and reinforce the armies. This gave me an experienced mobile force and allowed my reinforcements and fresh units to go into dug in positions.
This also allowed my air force to consist of planes that had the highest war footing 90% British with only the starting french planes.

the air force in France at the time the Germans invaded the low countries consisted roughly of 2 squadrons with 1 spitfire and 4 Hurricanes each. 4 squadrons of 6 hurricanes each. 3 squadrons of 5 Blackburn skua dive bombers  and each starting french fighter group had 2 or 3 hurricanes added to them.
I also had about four squadrons of mixed spitfires and hurricanes and two dive bomber squadrons in reserve in England. Plus the planes in 4 carrier air groups.

the basic plan such as it was, was to field a strong air force of mainly hurricanes as it was historically and once the invasion of France started to switch production in England to building land forces and to withdraw the surviving air force back to England when France fell.

The Air war has been so disastrous that I have had to continue building planes in England to replace my losses.  But the land war has gone much better with the Belgium forces holding the germans in the lowlands and the french forces have yet to be touched.

right now I am building Glosters with the french just to keep his bombing raids from going unopposed while I rebuild my air force in England with spitfires. For all intents and purposes the Germans have air supremacy in western Europe ATM.

Initially my experience for my air force was as high as it could have been but with having to replace such huge losses you can imagine how that effected the experience level.

The Hurricanes that where grouped with the single spitfires took minimal losses it was the hurricanes that had no spitfires with them that took such high losses. Things could/might have been different if I had put a spitfire in each squadron.

Right now I have lost all confidence in the Hurricanes and have to replace them especially on my Carriers. I wanted to use the hurricanes as my workhorse like it was historically but they just havent performed well enough to do that.

I have all the turns saved Grumpy and will gladly send them to you with my password so you can take a look and mess around with it if you would like.


< Message edited by 82ndtrooper -- 9/8/2010 9:29:47 PM >

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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/8/2010 9:17:34 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks...I'll setup a simulator version of the scenerio and run some tests with Hurricanes and 109s with identical war-footings and experience in order to get a better idea of whether the performance is where it should be.

It's possible the Hurricanes might need some tweaking, as the results shouldn't be quite as lopsided as you are describing. My results weren't quite as bad...but luck can always be a factor... with the combat simulater function on...it'll even that out (think it runs each combat through 100 iterations to get the avg result)... and I can get a better picture of what typical results to expect.

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RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/9/2010 3:31:20 AM   
GrumpyMel

 

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Status: offline 		Ok so I put together a combat simulator test and I think it provides enough evidence to support the Hurricane was underperforming slightly from where it should have been. It wasn't all that far off, but a slight boost was justified...so that will make it into the next version.

In case you are interested here are the results

10 Hawkers vs 10 109-E's... War Footing and Exp equal
UK Attacker = 3.475 Hawkers Lost, 1.395 BF-109-E's
GE Attacker = 3.44 Hawkers Lost, 2.185 BF-109-E's

7 Hawkers & 3 Spits vs 10 109-E's
UK Attacker = 2.41 Hawkers Lost & .75 Spits, 1.88 BF-109-E's
Ge Attacerk = 2.15 Hawkers Lost & .655 Spis , 2.765 BF-109-E's

10 Spits vs 10 109-E's
UK Attacker = 2.535 Spits Lost , 2.825 BF-109-E's
Ge Attacker = 1.895 Spits Lost , 3.135 BF-109-E's


After modifications
10 Hawkers(modified) vs 10 109-E's... exp and footing equal
UK Attacker = 3.295 Hawkers Lost, 1.73 BF-109-E's
Ge Attacker = 2.835 Hawkers Lost, 2.565 BF-109-E's

That should bring things closer to the planes actual abilities. Note that if War Footing or Exp are not equal...these can have a significant effect on the combat odds. I expect that the Luftwaffe will likely have an exp edge at the start of the battle for France...as they will have had opportunity to gain some "easy" air experience in Poland.






(in reply to GrumpyMel)
Post #: 87
RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/9/2010 7:08:25 AM   
82ndtrooper


Posts: 1083
Joined: 12/19/2008
From: tennessee
Status: offline 		ok sounds and looks good.
they didn't need much just something to help their survivability.


_____________________________

HHC 302nd Engineer Battalion
82nd Airborne Division
Honorably Discharged Jul/80

(in reply to GrumpyMel)
Post #: 88
RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/11/2010 8:57:20 AM   
82ndtrooper


Posts: 1083
Joined: 12/19/2008
From: tennessee
Status: offline 		the axis advance is bogged down against the Belgium army still. I would think about reducing its strength IF the axis had to advance through Benelux but they dont, this scenario is very flexible on when and who the Germans can declare war on.
So I suggest a few more games and see what happens.

this is the very first test game and neither side has any clue what to expect.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

HHC 302nd Engineer Battalion
82nd Airborne Division
Honorably Discharged Jul/80

(in reply to 82ndtrooper)
Post #: 89
RE: European Theatres of Operations - 9/15/2010 1:14:49 AM   
82ndtrooper


Posts: 1083
Joined: 12/19/2008
From: tennessee
Status: offline 		well winter has hit and I pulled the Belgium army back into France. They held a long time but took a beating.

because of the disastrous results of the air war I was never able to build any kind of land forces in England and since my forces in France have held for longer than I expected I moved my strongest army from France to England so when France does fall I will have a army there to defend from invasion.

My defenses in France are only a hard shell with nothing behind it and once the axis achieves a breakthrough they will crumble.
it was never my goal to hold France forever.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

HHC 302nd Engineer Battalion
82nd Airborne Division
Honorably Discharged Jul/80

(in reply to 82ndtrooper)
Post #: 90
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