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Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/9/2010 6:12:46 AM   
bradfordkay

 

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Status: offline 		One of the WW2 magazines this month has an interview with a B24 pilot from the 90th BG. There were a couple of details that caught my eye.

One was that in late March of 1943 his squadron flew from San Francisco to Hawaii in the company of "a number of B-25s". I was surprised that the Mitchells could fly that distance, but then I notice that in game terms the B25C and B25D are only one hex shy of being able to make it so I suppose that IRL they were able to do so with bomb bay tanks.

The other was their route from Hawaii to Australia - Christmas Is, Canton Is, New Caledonia. Now Christmas Is is 11 hexes closer to Oahu than is Canton Is, but the latter is certainly within easy transfer range of the B24D. I wonder why they took the more convoluted route?

EDIT: Oh yeah, the other tidbit I found interesting is that Canton Is was the recipient of night air raids by the Japanese (one has to assume Betties or Nells), which of course did little damage.

< Message edited by bradfordkay -- 8/9/2010 6:14:32 AM >

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/9/2010 6:19:42 AM   
tigercub


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Tigercub!

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/9/2010 8:23:16 AM   
m10bob


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Status: offline 		For the sake of those transfers I would like to see the option of some of those larger planes having extra tanks in lieu of ordnance, as in real life..

DC 3's routinely flew from CONUS to Hawaii, but not in game.

We have been told this would make it "gamey", but nothing is more "gamey" to me than dummying down real capabilities of a machine with known parameters.

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/9/2010 10:14:17 PM   
crsutton


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Status: offline 		I suppose they could gain a lot of distance by removing MGs and some equipment and then retrofiting them at the destination.

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/9/2010 10:30:53 PM   
JeffroK


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Status: offline 		Usually they had extra tanks or filled from drums in flight.

Maybe allow extra range, but arrive 50-100% u/s or damaged


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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/9/2010 11:00:39 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Usually they had extra tanks or filled from drums in flight.

Maybe allow extra range, but arrive 50-100% u/s or damaged



With greatly increased fatigue , and a much higher op loss rate.

Most aircraft have what's called a "ferry configuration" (that is in real life) but are usually stripped down , with extra navigators and crew, and are very suseptable to weather and winds. Often a special fuel tank is placed in the bomb bay (NOT a drop tank, it must be removed by ground crews).

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/10/2010 12:17:52 AM   
AcePylut


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Status: offline 		Maybe the runway wasn't large enough to handle the larger aircraft.

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/10/2010 1:01:45 AM   
Don Bowen


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Here is a document on the subject. I have been working on this for several years, accumulating additional data whenever I can find it. See note 4.

Any additional data gratefully welcomed.



Attachment (1)

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/10/2010 6:54:57 AM   
bradfordkay

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

Maybe the runway wasn't large enough to handle the larger aircraft.



Since they ended up on Canton Is a couple of days later, that can't be the reason. Avoiding bad weather could be one reason, as mentioned by Tigercub. Another could have been something as simple as ferrying in some personnel.

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/10/2010 9:57:09 AM   
DBS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay


quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

Maybe the runway wasn't large enough to handle the larger aircraft.



Since they ended up on Canton Is a couple of days later, that can't be the reason. Avoiding bad weather could be one reason, as mentioned by Tigercub. Another could have been something as simple as ferrying in some personnel.


It may simply have been prudence. Fly in the shortest, easiest stages you can. Reduces crew fatigue and risk of mechanical failure (even in a four engined aircraft). Perhaps most importantly, when trying to navigate to a small island in the middle of the Oggin without the benefit of electronic navaids, the further you go without landfall, the greater the risk of your dead reckoning going awry...

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/10/2010 12:21:56 PM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Here is a document on the subject. I have been working on this for several years, accumulating additional data whenever I can find it. See note 4.

Any additional data gratefully welcomed.



Excellent work Don.



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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/10/2010 1:51:38 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Here is a document on the subject. I have been working on this for several years, accumulating additional data whenever I can find it. See note 4.

Any additional data gratefully welcomed.




Thank you Don. The data is VERY usefull.

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/10/2010 4:01:02 PM   
USSAmerica


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Status: offline 		Good stuff, Don!  

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/11/2010 4:57:48 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DBS


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay


quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

Maybe the runway wasn't large enough to handle the larger aircraft.



Since they ended up on Canton Is a couple of days later, that can't be the reason. Avoiding bad weather could be one reason, as mentioned by Tigercub. Another could have been something as simple as ferrying in some personnel.


It may simply have been prudence. Fly in the shortest, easiest stages you can. Reduces crew fatigue and risk of mechanical failure (even in a four engined aircraft). Perhaps most importantly, when trying to navigate to a small island in the middle of the Oggin without the benefit of electronic navaids, the further you go without landfall, the greater the risk of your dead reckoning going awry...



I can buy that argument. However, the last portion of it would make me want to fly from Christmas Island to Pago Pago or Suva - because of the close proximity of other large islands these boys would be more difficult to miss than the tiny flat atoll that is Canton Island.

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/11/2010 6:56:59 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Usually they had extra tanks or filled from drums in flight.

Maybe allow extra range, but arrive 50-100% u/s or damaged




My example was DC 3's...I would hate to think those guys would be 50-100% damaged carrying paying civilian passengers..

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/11/2010 8:25:35 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Usually they had extra tanks or filled from drums in flight.

Maybe allow extra range, but arrive 50-100% u/s or damaged




My example was DC 3's...I would hate to think those guys would be 50-100% damaged carrying paying civilian passengers..


In world war 2 there were no civilian paying passengers. If you flew, you flew on government business.

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/12/2010 1:30:34 AM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Usually they had extra tanks or filled from drums in flight.

Maybe allow extra range, but arrive 50-100% u/s or damaged




My example was DC 3's...I would hate to think those guys would be 50-100% damaged carrying paying civilian passengers..


In world war 2 there were no civilian paying passengers. If you flew, you flew on government business.

Yes, but my original response was that DC 3'd could fly to Pearl from CONUS daily, but not in game.
My comment regarding the 50-100% "fatigue" was somewhat tongue in cheek response as evinced by the smiling face icon following said remark in my second post.>>><<<

Oct. 1941

Inter-Island Airways changes its name to Hawaiian Airlines. Hawaiian Airlines begins flying the Douglas DC-3. The DC-3's were flown to Hawaii from the U.S. mainland in 13 hours and 55 minutes.


< Message edited by m10bob -- 8/12/2010 1:36:40 AM >

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/12/2010 3:13:43 AM   
AcePylut


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Status: offline 		Ya know, thinking about this... B17D's didn't have the range to hit PH from the West Coast. I'm thinking of that famous flight that came in on Dec 7th '41... they had to be stripped of guns to make it.

Perhaps transfers at extended range should wind up with the planes in a disabled state. Seems fitting.

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/12/2010 5:13:15 AM   
bradfordkay

 

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Status: offline 		Was it that the B17Ds didn't have the range or that in peacetime extra weight was removed in order to give them a further measure of safety?




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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/12/2010 8:33:07 AM   
m10bob


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Status: offline 		Oh, I definitely think it a great idea that any plane using "transfer" range be limited to one flight daily, I just wish accurate transfer ranges be allowed for that one way flight.
Further crippling the plane with that 50-100% "fatigue" hit is not necessary, (IMHO)..

Greatest game going, with many improvements over the years.I doubt any of us would have envisioned the vast development the game has gone through over the years, due to the many grognards involved.

Mr Browns' map has been the catalyst for so much vast improvement.
(See,Andrew, we don't forget.)

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/17/2010 5:55:24 PM   
Don Bowen


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Something new (on the original subject):
http://www.amazon.com/Racing-Sunrise-Reinforcement-Americas-1941-1942/dp/1591149568/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1282063911&sr=1-1

USNI has it available now, but there is a shipping charge. About the same price for members. You all are member of USNI aren't you? www.usni.org

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 8/17/2010 6:48:24 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Something new (on the original subject):
http://www.amazon.com/Racing-Sunrise-Reinforcement-Americas-1941-1942/dp/1591149568/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1282063911&sr=1-1

USNI has it available now, but there is a shipping charge. About the same price for members. You all are member of USNI aren't you? www.usni.org



Thank you, Don!

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 10/9/2010 11:25:03 PM   
Don Bowen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Something new (on the original subject):
http://www.amazon.com/Racing-Sunrise-Reinforcement-Americas-1941-1942/dp/1591149568/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1282063911&sr=1-1

USNI has it available now, but there is a shipping charge. About the same price for members. You all are member of USNI aren't you? www.usni.org


Update. Got mine - BUY THIS BOOK!

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 10/9/2010 11:43:49 PM   
madflava13


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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 10/10/2010 12:21:19 AM   
Pascal_slith


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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

For the sake of those transfers I would like to see the option of some of those larger planes having extra tanks in lieu of ordnance, as in real life..

DC 3's routinely flew from CONUS to Hawaii, but not in game.

We have been told this would make it "gamey", but nothing is more "gamey" to me than dummying down real capabilities of a machine with known parameters.


You can propose to modify the database to add drop tanks for Maximum range only. Could that be the answer?

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 10/10/2010 12:29:46 AM   
Pascal_slith


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

Ya know, thinking about this... B17D's didn't have the range to hit PH from the West Coast. I'm thinking of that famous flight that came in on Dec 7th '41... they had to be stripped of guns to make it.

Perhaps transfers at extended range should wind up with the planes in a disabled state. Seems fitting.


Weren't these B-17Cs (3) and B-17Es (8)?

Quote from Wikipedia:

On 7 December 1941, a group of 12 B-17s of the 38th (four B-17C) and 88th (eight B-17E) Reconnaissance Squadrons, en route to reinforce the Philippines, were flown into Pearl Harbor from Hamilton Field, California, arriving during the Japanese attack.

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 10/10/2010 12:31:02 AM   
Pascal_slith


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From: back in Commiefornia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Something new (on the original subject):
http://www.amazon.com/Racing-Sunrise-Reinforcement-Americas-1941-1942/dp/1591149568/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1282063911&sr=1-1

USNI has it available now, but there is a shipping charge. About the same price for members. You all are member of USNI aren't you? www.usni.org


Life Member here

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So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(


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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 10/10/2010 12:45:14 AM   
Herrbear


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Status: offline 		Waiting for my copy to be shipped in 11 days from Amazon.

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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 10/10/2010 1:26:31 AM   
Don Bowen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: madflava13

Details?


From the book (sic):

MV American Packer departed San Francisco 10/19/41 and proceeded, unescorted, at 14 knots via the Marianas, arriving Manila 11/18/41. Aboard were 26 Aircraft (25 P-40E and one other), 20 T-12 75MM SP guns, 12 3-in AA guns, 4 37mm AA guns, 20 60mm mortars, wire, canned salmon, hay, gas masks, machinery horse shoes, trucks and other vehicles, barbed wire, ammunition, inert bombs, machine guns, airplane engines, engineer heavy equipment, 1,899 rolls roofing paper.

Also an interesting little detail on AA guns. Enough AA guns had been sent to the Philippines to equip a third AA Regiment (only two were present). The extra guns were retained in depot. I'd guess these were probably the guns used to equip the 515th when it was split from the 200th.



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RE: Interesting info on historical cross Pacific transfers - 10/10/2010 1:59:52 AM   
Reg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

My example was DC 3's...I would hate to think those guys would be 50-100% damaged carrying paying civilian passengers..


My Grandfather flew in a Connie from Australia to England just AFTER the war and the trip included an unscheduled three day layover in Aden whilst they performed an engine change. Things were different in those days.....



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