castor troy
Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
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ORIGINAL: TheElf
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ORIGINAL: TheElf
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ORIGINAL: mbatch729
Ok, been away from the forums for a while, but understand from my opponent that there is debate going on about high altitude sweeps. Below is a typical result from our game. And even though the results say 12 lost, it was actually 20. His high altitude sweeps are KILLING my fighters. The below group average experience was 77. I've had similar results against groups that have 85-90 experience. Plenty of air support/supplies/etc at the bases. I'm to the point of grounding all my fighters. No point in putting up CAP...
Morning Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid spotted at 38 NM, estimated altitude 39,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 21
Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 16
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 12 destroyed
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 36000 feet *
CAP engaged:
Kanoya Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (21 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
21 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 32810
Raid is overhead
did you have radar?
Couple of quick hard facts.
Hurricane IIB
Max Ceiling 36,000
Critical Altitude 1185hp @ 21,000' (with 2 stage supercharger)
Topspeed at Crit Alt = 340 mph
MVR from data base above 31k' = 14
Armament= 12 Browning .303 MG firing ~1200rpm
weight of fire 480 rounds in a 2 sec burst = 12.7 lbs of lead assuming the round is 180 grain (12 gr) SP
A6M2 Model 21
Max Ceiling 32,810'
Critical Altitude 950hp @ 16,000' (No supercharger)
Topspeed at Crit Alt = 331 mph @ 20,000' (Do not EXCEED speeds range from 391 to 410mph depending)
MVR from data base above 31k' = 10
Armament: essentially 2 browning .303s though I believe ROF is lower in IJ versions Weight of fire for 2 in a 2 sec burst 1/6th of the Hurricane so 2.1 lbs.
2 type 99 Mk2 Cannon with varying ROF depending on Model but for argument sake an Average of 505 rpm is realistic throwing 8.4 rounds ea or 17 rounds total in a 2 sec burst: Total Weight in 2 sec burst. 4.6 lbs (assuming all 17 20mm rounds hit in that burst)
Total weight 6.7 lbs or roughly half the weight thrown by the Hurricane.
Interesting note: Power to Mass for the Hurri is .15 hp/lb while the Model 21 is .18 hp/lb
At altitudes above 31k' the Hurricane enjoys a MVR advantage owing primarily to it's higher Critical altitude relative to the Zeke 21 which begins to see degraded engine/power performance at 16,000' compared to the Hurricane at 21,000'. The MkIIb throws twice as much lead in a 2 sec burst at arguably a much more fragile aircraft, and THAT assumes the Zeke is landing all it's 7.7mm ammo AND all 17 of the 20mm shells it can pump out in 2 sec. So room to lower probable ACTUAL Weight. Of course we are also assuming all 480 rounds from teh 12 .303s in the Hurri are hitting too, but you get my point...
Topspeed also goes to the Hurri, but by OUR stats that edge is only 10 mph. I've seen Tests of A6M2 21s that cite 321mph as it's level best at critical altitude. Any airspeed advantage in the code as it is written, even a small one like this will translate in at least a slight MVR modifier in favor of the faster Aircraft.
Oh and you are at your max ceiling while the Hurris are above you.
Oh, and the code does not make British pilots attempt to turn with Zekes as they did IRL. So you don't have THAT working for you either...
Your opponent's Hurri unit is actually a fairly experienced unit at 65, I bet there are a couple pipe hitting Battle of Britain Vets in there. The LDR is mostly average in all categories, except he seems to be a pretty aggressive fighter leader. Watch out!
ADVANTAGE????
Topspeed: Slight, but Hurri
MVR: Hurri (at this altitude)
Firepower/accuracy: Hurri
Durability: Hurri
Altitude: Hurri (in this case)
Power/mass: Probably the Hurri given a 2 stage supercharger but slight I'm guessing
EXP would seem to be your only advantage in this case, unless you can provide more info.
excellent explanation. The problem (if you want to call it problem) in the game is that you can reverse this result easily with using the exact same two units but have the Zeroes 50ft higher than the Hurricanes. 20:0 kill rates aren´t the norm, but having my P-38 constantly achieving something like 10:1 is the norm for me. I guess with the Zeroes 50ft higher than the Hurricanes you wouldn´t get a 20:0 for the Zeroes but the difference to the 20:0 for the Hurricanes would be enormous. I would bet the Zeroes would come out as the winner.
And that is the problem with the game. The real life explanation is a nice read and surely correct, applied to the game... well, a better advise would be to say: "just get your fighters 50ft higher than your enemies". But it´s like you´ve said, it´s gaming the system. But the main reason for the 20:0 was the dive. My P-38 at best get a 1:1 against Tojos, Zekes, Oscars, Tonies, Jacks if you don´t get the dive, with the dive, say good bye to the Japanese. And yes, give the Tojos, Zekes, Oscars,... the dive and say good bye to the P-38.
One more thing is of course to say it´s gaming the system while on the other hand to say it´s working and giving a real life explanation. Not all but a hell a lot people ended up in the spiral going up and up and up and up until everyone ended up at the fighters ceiling because these people thought the dive is all they want. So it seems there must be something behind the dive being so powerful (uber IMO when you change a 10:1 into a 1:1 for example). And most oftne you get the never ending dive, which is what leads to these massacres. No problem with a bounce when higher fighters take out two or three suprised enemies, taking out whole squadrons with a never ending dive seems a bit out of whack.
< Message edited by castor troy -- 9/2/2010 8:24:45 AM >
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant - 
I'd be happy if he double checked it actually works, because I don't think people are seeing that much extra fatigue when strato-sweeping... Might be worth of upping the fatigue penalty bit or check that it works as supposed. 
But at least someone has done it, even though I think Oleg was bit biased. 
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