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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

 
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant - 9/23/2010 12:59:30 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yakface
You are representing the symptom as the problem. The problem IMO is that having 'the dive' the only thing that matters in air battles.

The dive gives benefits approximately equivalent to extra 15 knots of speed. At most. Likely less. Deliberately giving up the dive in exchange for the optimal altitude band seems to be actively and significantly beneficial for certain planes, like Ki-43-Ic. At least in my Scen 70 game, Japanese planes always sweep at 15k (due to our HR), and Ki-43s actually work better than they ever did in stratosweeps - even against my own airforce in JuanG's BB Enhanced scenario, where all of Japanese planes get about the same 15-knot buff. In fact, during that game Ki-43-Ic were relegated to cannonfodder once Allies got enough Hurricanes, while at 15k they got about 1:1 kills against the same Hurricanes.

Zeros work about as well sweeping at 15k as they did on stratosweeps. Again, in both cases (Japanese sweeping me in BB Enhanced, me sweeping allies in Reluctant Admira) Zeros had about the same small speed buff (although in the latter case it was unintended and somehow managed to creep into stats of Zeros/Oscars/Franks at some point in development - an unpleasant consequence of the several people working on one mod, and not being sufficiently in touch with each other, I guess), and in both cases Zeros dominated early Allied planes to about the same extent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yakface
Dealing with just the symptom would mean you are effectively changing one god-stat for another. Previously it was max ceiling - in future it would be whatever height you decide is right for the plane.

Actually it means the removal of player input from air tactics. Which might be a good thing or not, depending on whether you like AE's level of micromanagement or not. But it also means a tremendous metagame change in unclear direction and necessity to relearn how the air model works from scratch. And possible breakage of several air model aspects other than A2A calcuations (bombing altitudes, raid coordination). Which is a very bad thing.

EDIT: I do sincerely hope that was a joke.






perhaps I shouldn´t complain because I´m the Allied player and I´m fielding P-47 and P-38 for the rest of the war while the enemy flies lower than me, therefore me getting the dive (only due to altitude) and constantly achieving 10+:1 with the dive against Zekes, Tojos, etc. The same squadrons get 1:1 or perhaps 2:1 without the dive.

Now all of you that were saying altitude doesn´t matter probably missed the point when there was this official comment: "doing stratosphere sweeps exploits the game". If everything is fine, how can it exploit the game? Answer? It´s the players, not the game.

Ok, back to start. Not only me (I don´t care at all anymore) tried all the "advices" of the far smarter people than we are here on the forum with what outcome? It was even WORSE with these great advices. So what did my opponent do then? Of course going back to the fighters ceilings instead of all these fantasy advices. Now it even got worse for him I guess as now my fighters weren´t even only doing ceiling sweeps, but we´ve also got ceiling P-47 Cap now. He sends in nearly 40 Jacks at their ceiling somewhere around 39000ft, countered by my P-47 at 42000ft now. Result? It made me laugh, a 35:1 for my combined P-47 / F4U Cap, with the P-47 downing 80% of the enemy during the "non important?" dive.

Show me your results with all your so well working advices (that seem to be ignored by us?) against P-47 at 42.000ft. Show me please, it´s not like we "whiners" as you like to say have ignored all these advices right from the start. Same as not having had all our fighters at their ceiling right from the start. Discussion got senseless at exactly the day when there was the comment of ceiling sweeps being an exploit anyway. This should say enough. If it´s an exploit then noone can tell me it´s working.



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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant - 9/23/2010 1:29:54 PM   
FatR

 

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Status: offline 		It is impossible to prove anything to you, castor troy, even assuming I would want to. I don't care about the results you get, because your AAR is both unreadable and doesn't have a companion, so I can't see the full picture.

I do care about half the game being turned on its head just to fix the dive issue. Because in my practice the dive both is far from overwhelmingly strong, as anyone can see above, and helps to produce quite historical overall results, except at ahistorical altitudes.

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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant - 9/23/2010 2:06:17 PM   
Sardaukar


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Status: offline 		I think the old axiom was "ahistorical practices will produce ahistorical results". No-one has so far forcing anyone to play historically, flying in stratosphere included. But it'd be advisable to do so for enjoying the game more.

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F6D Missileer - 9/23/2010 2:10:58 PM   
herwin

 

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Status: offline 		You have to be careful what you wish for. As an example, look up the history of the F6D Missileer.

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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant - 9/23/2010 3:54:21 PM   
The Gnome


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yakface

I certainly agree with you, removing altitude controls from the game would not be a good idea.


Having them in the game in the first place never made sense to me. Not sure it's been proven to me that removing them is a bad idea.

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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant - 9/23/2010 4:11:44 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

It is impossible to prove anything to you, castor troy, even assuming I would want to. I don't care about the results you get, because your AAR is both unreadable and doesn't have a companion, so I can't see the full picture.

I do care about half the game being turned on its head just to fix the dive issue. Because in my practice the dive both is far from overwhelmingly strong, as anyone can see above, and helps to produce quite historical overall results, except at ahistorical altitudes.




yeah I know, combat reports are far harder to read than fairy tales. I would kill your fighters at will buddy, no matter what altitude you have them fly, as long as mine can fly 100ft higher. This can be tested to death if you want. In fact, my opponent and me seem to do nothing else than exactly this. Noone cares about "tips" anymore, everything is up high and the one that is higher wins. Problem for you, you wouldn´t understand the tests I guess as you would only get unreadable combat reports.


Other than you, I´m posting ALL my combat reports and not the ones picked out that I like... and that makes it a really consistent non fairy tale from page one to page 27. It´s all there. And surprise, surprise, for what reason ever we did not start out at 42000ft but rather at 15000ft with all the "pro tips" by default. To be honest, all these tips about HQ, supplies, airfield size, numbers, altitude, Zero vs Warhawk, Hurricane vs Oscar, P-47 vs Jack is of no value for people that have been playing for 6 years+, no matter if WITP or AE because they are aware of it anyway. We also didn´t jump from 15000ft to 42000ft for some amazing reason you probably won´t understand. Now why on earth did we end there? boooohhhhh

< Message edited by castor troy -- 9/23/2010 4:22:30 PM >

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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant - 9/23/2010 4:14:34 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I think the old axiom was "ahistorical practices will produce ahistorical results". No-one has so far forcing anyone to play historically, flying in stratosphere included. But it'd be advisable to do so for enjoying the game more.



Would be flying at 20000ft and 10000ft be ahistorical too with the lower flying side losing high time too when the never ending dive kicks in?

You are certainly correct that it would be more fun, but as pointed out lots of times already, where do you stop? Should I stop at 20000ft and my opponent stops at 21000ft? Or the other way around? What would be more historical, or realistic? Probably having the Allied second gen fighters being higher but then my opponent again ends up being dived on most of the time (at least as long as land based radar doesn´t work and his Cap won´t be sent up higher).

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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant - 9/24/2010 12:33:55 AM   
tigercub


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From: brisbane oz
Status: offline 		hi Castor i have a house rule for it the defender can fly cap at 27,000 but sweeps\attacker can only fly at 25,000 max...it works for us.

Tigercub

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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant - 9/24/2010 5:57:20 AM   
Sardaukar


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Status: offline 		Well, dive is not the end of the world or only factor in combat, as been pointed out many times before.  It only becomes overwhelming factor when both fly at max alt and that prevents lot of those other factors to take place.

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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant - 10/12/2010 10:35:04 PM   
dontra85

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline 		definant problem with the cap model. had 75 zeros do a sweep against an equal number of p40's,39's and a few f4f's. most of my pilots had over 70 expierience and all had over 50 with a minimum air to air rating of 60. I lost 56 zeros to 2 p39's and 2 p40's. it is only may 42. i can see that against the hellcats and p47's and 51's later in the game but not that at 28,000 feet.

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Post #: 250
RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant - 10/13/2010 7:06:15 AM   
tigercub


Posts: 2004
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From: brisbane oz
Status: offline 		i would say you were lower than them and your sweep was at long range and he did have expierience over you at a guess?

< Message edited by tigercub -- 10/13/2010 7:08:13 AM >

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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant - 10/13/2010 10:39:10 PM   
The Gnome


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From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline 		I love the game, but still think setting altitude at all on a game of this scale is kind of silly at best.

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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant - 4/24/2011 5:48:55 AM   
bigred


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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Gnome

I love the game, but still think setting altitude at all on a game of this scale is kind of silly at best.

yep, remove the altitude settings and let the designers task the altitude depending on the missions, targets and weather.

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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant - 4/24/2011 11:27:56 AM   
FatR

 

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Status: offline 		post deleted. Did not notice the thread necromancy.

< Message edited by FatR -- 4/24/2011 11:44:46 AM >

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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant - 4/24/2011 11:34:23 AM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Oh goody, we really needed to revive this thread...

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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant - 4/24/2011 11:43:02 AM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
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< Message edited by FatR -- 4/24/2011 11:44:20 AM >

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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant - 4/25/2011 10:50:53 AM   
Sardaukar


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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant - 4/25/2011 12:15:42 PM   
USSAmerica


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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant - 4/26/2011 12:04:39 AM   
DivePac88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar







Priceless!


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