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Barter Pricing - 8/28/2010 10:07:41 PM

torrenal

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When I barter item X for another empires item Y, these items have price-tags attached.

From experience (ie: When the game allowed me to try trading my Race-tech to another empire with the same tech), the prices for the same product can vary.
Looking more recently at mining stations, it looks as if this variation can be significant.

Does anyone have ideas on how that pricing works, or how it can be manipulated into our favor?

//Torrenal

Hmm... my one mining station, sans shields, weapons, armor, one cargo hold, one docking bay... for 3 of your colonies, 9 of your stations, and your WMD tech. Fair, right?

Post #: 1

RE: Barter Pricing - 8/29/2010 4:14:12 AM

the1sean

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From: Texas, USA
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It can easily manipulated by bettering relations with that empire (ie: gifts, and trades heavily in their favor). Positive treaties and reputation all come into play as well. In addition the racial differences play a huge role (ie: "we naturally dislike you" doesnt help at all). Some races also seem to be hard negotiators that will only take trades substatially in their favor, even if you have awesome relations, reputation, mutual def pact, etc.

No specifics on pricing numbers :P

(in reply to torrenal)

Post #: 2

RE: Barter Pricing - 8/29/2010 6:15:18 AM

Foraven

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I believe there is some fixed pricing mechanics that adjust the value of what is being traded. When exchanging technologies, it seems to include all other techs from that line that they have, that's why it vary from one empire to the next... Well, i believe it works that way, but i never checked if i received more techs than what i traded for. In the case of mining stations, it's not the station itself that is worth something, it's the resource it's mining. I've seen some of my mining station being worth several millions (like the rare luxury goods)... Sometimes mines are worth more than well developed colonies. But i haven't figured out the real mechanics of it. One thing is sure, giving the price don't always ensure we can get it, they can refuse the trade until they have a much higher price. But the AI will always trade if you give the proper price.

I noticed though that if the AI has the money, it will buy what you sell them, it's just that most of the time the AI is short on money.

(in reply to the1sean)

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RE: Barter Pricing - 8/29/2010 6:33:05 PM

torrenal

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Sometimes empires have no interest in things you try to trade them.

Try trading the Zennox a shield sometime, and you will see what I mean.
They already have the 'best of the best' shields. The game lets you trade them lesser shield techs, but the zennox have no interest in them.

I tend to hoard the weapon, shield, hyperdrive, storage, construction, and habitation techs, which leaves me with mostly techs that other races tend to ignore. (Yay. Better solar panels. wahoo.)

Conversely, this suggests that you might be able to trade fairly well for such techs... though, what effect having the latest & greatest mining tech and solar panels will have....

*shrug*
//Torrenal

(in reply to Foraven)

Post #: 4

RE: Barter Pricing - 8/29/2010 7:34:00 PM

Foraven

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quote:

ORIGINAL: torrenal

Sometimes empires have no interest in things you try to trade them.

Try trading the Zennox a shield sometime, and you will see what I mean.
They already have the 'best of the best' shields. The game lets you trade them lesser shield techs, but the zennox have no interest in them.

There is no sometimes there, races won't trade techs they don't need.

quote:

Conversely, this suggests that you might be able to trade fairly well for such techs... though, what effect having the latest & greatest mining tech and solar panels will have....

Better mining tech mean we need less mines operating for the same output, and better solar panels means less fuel used (if in a solar system that is). And i do use solar panels on my ships, that shave a bit on fuel while they are in system and not fighting. Less fuel used, more profit.

(in reply to torrenal)

Post #: 5

RE: Barter Pricing - 8/29/2010 9:31:00 PM

torrenal

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With mining tools, its usually more an issue of where the material is, or how fast the merchants push it. Not so much a question of how quickly you dig it out of the ground.
(Ok, digging has once or twice been an issue for Zenatabia fluid, but otherwise I've not seen any shortages at the source).

With solar panels, if the ship is moving, the panel is of no help, star or no star.

If the ship is stationary, barring resupply bases and construction ships, a single panel will in most cases cover its power needs, even if its inefficient.

You might be able to get by with fewer panels on a base, but then when most of the building is at a planet, the number of panels used is only an issue in terms of initial cost, materials, and the upkeep fees.

Whereas, the next gen shield lets my ships stay in a fight longer, the next gen weapon lets me blow bigger holes into enemy ships, and the next gen enviro-tech lets me colonize planets other empires can't touch, and with the proper construction tech I can build my own desolation moons, perfect for soloing large space ports (Even if they don't have a super-laser, they can still be handy).

Don't get me wrong, mining tech and solar panels aren't worthless, but compared to the other techs, their practical use is limited, and resources may be better spent in the other tech trees.

(in reply to Foraven)

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RE: Barter Pricing - 8/30/2010 3:56:07 AM

Foraven

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quote:

ORIGINAL: torrenal
With solar panels, if the ship is moving, the panel is of no help, star or no star.

Is that a confirmed thing that they need to be immobile or is it just a deduction from the quote in the galactopedia? I haven't read anywhere in the galactopedia that solar panels need to be immobile to work, just that they are usually on stationary stuff.

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RE: Barter Pricing - 8/30/2010 2:42:11 PM

torrenal

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I've confirmed it, watching out-of-fuel construction ships in a system. They have energy, finish a repair, start moving at full speed. Energy decends to 0, they start moving at 1/3rd speed, they stop at the next wreck to repair, and they get energy again.

//Torrenal

(in reply to Foraven)

Post #: 8

RE: Barter Pricing - 8/30/2010 7:11:16 PM

Foraven

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quote:

ORIGINAL: torrenal

I've confirmed it, watching out-of-fuel construction ships in a system. They have energy, finish a repair, start moving at full speed. Energy decends to 0, they start moving at 1/3rd speed, they stop at the next wreck to repair, and they get energy again.

//Torrenal

Moving increase the energy drain by a lot, a single solar panel isn't enough to cover the expense. So that test doesn't prove or disprove anything.

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RE: Barter Pricing - 8/31/2010 5:11:08 AM

torrenal

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By how much? Depends on the number and type of engines. And I've seen this with more than just construction ships, just construction ships have a few habits that run them out of fuel, and are easier to stop dead when out of fuel too...

Test #1: Solar Panel Performance Test.
Process:
Design cruiser 'Super-Tank' with a fuel capacity of 6500, solar panel collection of 252, static energy use of 20, and Sprint power consumption of 44. Thus, should the solar panels perform at anything better than 26% while in-system, the ship will enough to power the engines.

Once designed, I moved to a random LSP and ordered 20.
Purpose: To run the base out of fuel, so that on completion, one or more ships are fuel-less. The expectation is that 2 will be sufficient to run the base out of fuel, but overkill never hurts (does funny things to forget about shipments... ooh look, another hydrogen shipment about to dock...

During construction, the first 3 ships all started to collect power from their panels to and charge their shields. Once completed, the first ship had fuel (what do you know, the AI sent 2 fleets to wait there, and they refueled while waiting...). Ship 2 exhibited normal speed while Energy was > 0. Once energy reached 0, movement speed remained at the the cruise speed of 12, while the max speed was reduced to 7. Selecting another target to move to triggered movement at the 1/3rd cruise speed of 4.

While a full test would involve stopping the ship to observe the charge take place, this was witnessed during construction, and stopping a ship post-construction without fuel would require a construction ship which already has a high static energy use. That said, such a complete test is not necessary, and similar results can be seen using ANY military ship with sufficient panels to power the engines. Just order one to refuel. It will do so, then it will generally move away from the port. Check such a ship after fueling and the fuel will commonly be down 1-2 points from full.

Good targets ships for solar panels are ships that spend long periods of time stationary (troop transports, construction ships, resupply ships, and ships within a fleet). Yes, resupply ships have alternate means of fueling... they will however not draw from their vast stockpile of fuel, they will only fuel their cells from a port or directly from a planet/nebula.
//Torrenal

(in reply to Foraven)

Post #: 10

RE: Barter Pricing - 9/8/2010 4:55:15 AM

the1sean

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so, do solar panels work in systems with no star, or outside a star system???

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RE: Barter Pricing - 9/8/2010 6:27:54 AM

torrenal

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That I recall, solar panels work based on distance to the star.
Assumption: Systems without a star (ahem, any gas nebula) will produce no power.
Unknown: Will a system with a black hole power solar panels? Assumption: Yes -- despite their all consuming habit, black holes are actually quite bright energy emitters (tearing matter to bits short of the event horizon has that kind of effect...).

I've not played around with it much. With the exception of resupply ships and construction ships, (and yes, I think, colony ships, but colony ships are special in this regard), ships have a low static energy usage, in most cases a single panel is enough and then some to keep things powered up.
//Torrenal

(in reply to the1sean)

Post #: 12