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RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/23/2010 2:04:58 AM

Knavery

Posts: 286
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quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I play and throw away cos 99.9999999999999999999999% of games have NO lasting appeal.....I certainly wont be playing any games on my hard drive in 20 years anyway...granted there are time si wiosh I could play a game I have ditched BUT I'm sure if I installed it again it wouldn't stay on my hard drive there was a reason it left in the first place...

Well I guess you never played Master of Magic and wanted to play it again? Let's see how about Alpha Centauri? You never want to play that again? Oh wait you don't like civilization games as I recall? So you're telling me you're going to toss BftB away an $80 game and have no interest in playing it 20 years from now? I have a laptop full of old DOS games I play and some are 20 years old or near abouts. Renegade Legion Interceptor is still one of the best tactical space fighter games around. And let's not forget all of Matrixgames titles that will still be being played and sold (hopefully) 20 years from now. What about Steel Panthers? Don't tell me you've taken that one off your hard drive? Combat Missions? Lord I hope someone shoots me if I ever remove those from my hard drive. There's plenty of games already 10 years old that are still great today. Many 15 to 20 years old as well. Come on guys tell him all the old games you still play (if your computer will let you) that are older than dirt!

Hey diablo1,
I agree with you. Wodin may throw away 99.9999999999999999999999% of his games, because they have no lasting appeal. But that is the exception to the rule that most gamers follow. Most of us keep our games for years in hopes we can dig them out for a little nostalgia action. His argument for Steam like apps is weak at best as most of us don't feel like throwing our money away. Personally, I love Steam and other download services due to their convenience, but that's it. I only use these services when there are awesome deals I can't get elsewhere, or don't have a choice like with Civ5. On the other hand, I feel very vulnerable to losing 25% of my games because of the possibility of these services going bankrupt.

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Post #: 61

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/23/2010 2:54:15 AM

Anthropoid

Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline

Steam is malware that you agree to allow on your machine. Much like AOL, and AVG and a wide range of other apps that are effectively impossible to uninstall.
Many years ago, I had it on a former machine for Half Life I believe. Hated it. Will never deal with it, even just for one DL.

Even if it works wonderfully, it is a step in a direction of greater intrusiveness into my life that I do not approve of.

Here is a thread from Overclockers Forum from 2005 with various guys expressing pro and con perspectives on it. In particular I thought this statement was apt

quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oni
2. Steam is not an attempt to take away any rights from the user. It is an attempt to protect Valve's intellectual property, and it does a very good job, I must say.

Steam protects valves rights to make valve even more rich by taking away simple liberties from the customers, it does a good job of it too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oni
I mean, if we're speaking of rights, does Valve not have the right to protect their investment from those who would steal it? They made it, they payed for people to write it, make graphics, debug and advertise for it. Do they not deserve the right to protect that? And sure, some people out there wouldn't even consider pirating it, just like some people wouldn't even consider walking into your house and stealing your stuff. But I bet you have locks on your doors, don't you?

Games with CD keys make money. And they dont not work. Yeah they deserve the right to protect their investment, but not while screwing the consumer.

I lock my doors. But I dont have a security system that has landmines and attack dogs, where simple locks would suffice.

More threads with the problems with Steam discussed:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1152603

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1025602

So I'm supposed to allow this company to put this malware on my machine that will be buggy, and laggy, and sometimes prevent me from playing my game with no apparent reason in order to "protect their investment?" Nah, I don't need to invest in them that much. There are plenty of other games that I can buy that do not need to invade into my privacy, freedom and happiness so much in order to protect their intellectual property.

And then the ultimate irony. About 3 years ago, I was gonna reinstall HL2, and I encountered some bug in one of the elevators toward the end of the first cell in the game. I looked around for a fix, even sent a note to the Valve tech support guys. No what I was told?

We don't support that game any longer.

Well then I won't buy any of your games any longer, and I also will not buy any game that uses you to distribute. PERIOD. End of story.

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Post #: 62

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/23/2010 6:54:05 AM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

lol - oh look - another Steam thread

I'll check out now - have fun amongst yourselves - remember to wear your tin foil hats though

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Post #: 63

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/23/2010 9:18:53 AM

ilovestrategy

Posts: 3611
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I play and throw away cos 99.9999999999999999999999% of games have NO lasting appeal.....I certainly wont be playing any games on my hard drive in 20 years anyway...granted there are time si wiosh I could play a game I have ditched BUT I'm sure if I installed it again it wouldn't stay on my hard drive there was a reason it left in the first place...

Well I guess you never played Master of Magic and wanted to play it again? Let's see how about Alpha Centauri? You never want to play that again? Oh wait you don't like civilization games as I recall? So you're telling me you're going to toss BftB away an $80 game and have no interest in playing it 20 years from now? I have a laptop full of old DOS games I play and some are 20 years old or near abouts. Renegade Legion Interceptor is still one of the best tactical space fighter games around. And let's not forget all of Matrixgames titles that will still be being played and sold (hopefully) 20 years from now. What about Steel Panthers? Don't tell me you've taken that one off your hard drive? Combat Missions? Lord I hope someone shoots me if I ever remove those from my hard drive. There's plenty of games already 10 years old that are still great today. Many 15 to 20 years old as well. Come on guys tell him all the old games you still play (if your computer will let you) that are older than dirt!

See my sig regarding Civ II?

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Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

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Post #: 64

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/23/2010 10:01:37 AM

Anthropoid

Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline

If you don't have something to contribute to the discussion, why bother posting with flippant driveby comments? That seems very unlike you.

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Post #: 65

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/23/2010 12:31:48 PM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

To be completely honest, Anthropoid, I think my post fitted in nicely with the craziness being posted here

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Post #: 66

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/23/2010 12:40:31 PM

sprior

Posts: 8596
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline

If I buy Civ5 from Steam and install it on my family PC can my son play it using his Steam Account if he want to do MP online?

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Post #: 67

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/23/2010 2:19:49 PM

Zakhal

Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyv�skyl�, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior
If I buy Civ5 from Steam and install it on my family PC can my son play it using his Steam Account if he want to do MP online?

If you have one family pc why cant he use your account? Besides singleplayer is the meat of civ not mp imho.

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Post #: 68

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/23/2010 2:28:40 PM

sprior

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From: Portsmouth, UK
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Becuase he'll want his own friends to play MP with. Or so that I can play MP with him from my laptop.

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Post #: 69

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/23/2010 3:30:29 PM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

Sprior

I'm not entirely sure, but I'd guess no. I think the game is linked to an account (i.e. yours). The only way other people in your household would be able to play it is by having their own copy linked to their account, or by logging in as you.

Like I said though - I'm not 100% on that.

And Anthropoid, I apologise for the flippant comment I made earlier...it was meant to be tongue in cheek than a drive by verbal assault - no offense intended

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Post #: 70

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/23/2010 4:16:13 PM

Bison36

Posts: 480
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline

Judge is correct. Each Steam account must have it's own copy of the game and a Steam account can only be logged on with one computer at a time.

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Post #: 71

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/23/2010 5:18:30 PM

RedArgo

Posts: 524
Joined: 8/2/2004
From: Illinois
Status: offline

So I can have Civ5 on as many PCs as I want, but only play it on one at a time?

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Post #: 72

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/23/2010 5:53:49 PM

ilovestrategy

Posts: 3611
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedArgo

So I can have Civ5 on as many PCs as I want, but only play it on one at a time?

That is correct. For example I have Steam on my desktop and laptop but can use my account on only one or the other, not both at the same time. Unless you play in offline mode.

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After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

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Post #: 73

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/23/2010 6:23:43 PM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

Yes - u can play in offline mode and both play the same game - I did it with my kids when I was going through my Plants vs Zombies game

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Post #: 74

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/23/2010 8:57:43 PM

wodin

Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline

Diablo and Knavery,

Yes there are a few games that have lasting appeal....but on the whole not many games will still get played ten years later let alone twenty....I mean Steel Panthers is a pure classic and true classics are very rare indeed....many new releases get touted as one but no one is playing them a few years later...also it's down to gameplay and replayability....games like Steel Panthers have endless gameplay and replayability....I probably can only think of a handful of games like that....I still have all my Close Combat games and my Combat Mission games...but considering how many games I've had since then it any many keeps to be honest.

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Post #: 75

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/24/2010 1:21:56 AM

diablo1

Posts: 994
Joined: 2/27/2010
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And let's not forget Medieval Total War the best Total War of them all. How old is it now? That XL mod for it made it almost the perfect game.

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Post #: 76

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/24/2010 1:35:31 AM

ilovestrategy

Posts: 3611
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

And let's not forget Medieval Total War the best Total War of them all. How old is it now? That XL mod for it made it almost the perfect game.

It's a good game but my fav is Rome Total War. Been playing it since it first came out. "The day is ouuuuurs!" That game is a war mongers dream come true!

_____________________________

After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

(in reply to diablo1)

Post #: 77

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/24/2010 3:40:08 AM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

And let's not forget Medieval Total War the best Total War of them all. How old is it now? That XL mod for it made it almost the perfect game.

It's a good game but my fav is Rome Total War. Been playing it since it first came out. "The day is ouuuuurs!" That game is a war mongers dream come true!

Warspite1

+1

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Post #: 78

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/24/2010 5:11:04 AM

n01487477

Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: L�tzow

Finished the demo 2x with two different nations, although the small map is way too crowded with city states for my taste. Switched from default difficulty level to Prince and it was a bit more challenging now. The one thing I enjoy is the new combat system, feels sorta like Panzer General. But then again, waging war seems to be the most feasible way to play CiV 5. On the other hand it's highly visible that Firaxis streamlined CiV for the sake of higher 'accessibility' (the disease of all modern games). Two things I noticed: there are no nation leaders to choose from anymore and land units don't need ship transports, but can embark themselves and 'walk' over water, considering one researched the according technology. Why companies always have to remove attributes instead of enhancing depth and details is beyond me.

Mind you, I'm rather the guy who plays a video game until he beats it and loose interest after. So loyal fanboys might come to a different conclusion and Civ 5 is in no way a bad game. Just not my cup of tea, as it doesn't require enough thinking.

I'm with you on this I just finished the demo and un-installed; the game is probably enjoyable with a few beers and brain downtime, but they won't be getting my money.

As for needing to make it more accessible - this is CIV - it's already easy to play. {insert your own dumbing down socio-political rant here} Give me depth and detail. Give me options. Make me think rather than just clicking through...

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Post #: 79

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/24/2010 1:28:15 PM

Anthropoid

Posts: 3107
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From: Secret Underground Lair
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I used to be a huge Civ fanboy. But based on what I'm hearing about this game, I have no interest at all in buying or playing it.

That to me is sad. A great game that is the culmination of a famous and successful game series from a powerhouse developer like Firaxis, should be so innovative, and include so many optional features, that it can appeal to a 'casual' lower-intensity gamer who is new to strategy gaming, and/or to the most intense and detail-demanding grog.

Many recent strategy games have continued to advance strategy gaming as an art form by exploring more nuanced, detailed and novel ways to simulate historical social processes. Civ it seems has chosen to go instead down the path of more alluring cartoons, and gross simplifications in game mechanics akin to the sorts used to teach history and social science in mediocre educational settings.

While I have not played the game, so cannot be certain, the reports I'm hearing indicate to me that this trajectory is maintained if not exacerbated in Civ 5.

I find that to be a very, VERY sad development for the strategy gaming community. I realize that Sid and company are at the end of the day, business men, who must stay in line with market forces.

But bold geniuses do not simply follow markets, they pioneer NEW markets, new art forms, new genres. Following the path of least resistance, and largest market share and consequently estranging the more Grog-oriented community, and the art form of strategy games as a whole is a seriously disappointing action by Firaxis.

Perhaps I'm being rash to judge without having played it; but the decision to use Steam has effectively deterred me from sampling the game for as long as Steam usage is required, and as such I feel warranted to make an initial assessment based on the 2nd hand reports I'm hearing. The resort to Steam is, IMO, in and of itself a shameful act of distrust and imposition by the game publishers onto the gamer community.

< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 9/24/2010 1:38:29 PM >

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Post #: 80

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/24/2010 1:39:53 PM

Joram

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I don't know why people keep saying it's dumbed down because it's not. There are as many if not more choices to make than ever before. They removed a couple elements that were exploitable like religion and tech trading (which many tended to turn off anyway) but that doesn't make it a 'simple' game by any means. I cruised through a warlord level game to be sure but now am getting my butt handed to me on Prince (the no bonus level). Civ V isn't revolutionary by any means but it a solid evolution of the series and if you were a fan of the series, you will like it. There's a 100-turn demo which while only scratching the surface of the decision-making processes you have to make, does at elast give a good feel for the flow of the game.

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Post #: 81

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/24/2010 1:47:45 PM

Yogi the Great

Posts: 1948
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From: Wisconsin
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I had the Total War series until Steam then stopped buying

I have Civ through IV now steam, will stop buying

Hopefully more traditional computer wargames, Matrix, HPS etc will never do this to us.

Or, are some right that someday we will have to deal with steam or something like it for any computer game? It will be a sad day for sure.

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Post #: 82

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/24/2010 1:47:56 PM

Anthropoid

Posts: 3107
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From: Secret Underground Lair
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quote:

. . . There's a 100-turn demo which while only scratching the surface . . .

And will not remove the requirement to patronize and network to Steam.

Given that navies, religion, and the exchange and diffusion of innovations and inventions are a sufficiently well-established aspect of actual history that these were modeled as mechanics requiring human decision-making in previous incarnations, I think it is safe to say that their removal constitutes rather major simplifications of the game series in Civ 5. The fact that they were not well-balanced, and/or exploitable in previous versions of the game are irrelevant.

Pushing the envelope means pushing the envelope, not chopping it down to 1/3 its original size and then holding it up to say "Oh look! Its open now!"

A good game in my opinion is one that advances the art form; not one that is simply fun, nor simply distracting, though those two are necessary elements to advancing the art form.

If we do not hold them to high expectations then we will not get better and better games over the years.

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Post #: 83

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/24/2010 2:01:08 PM

Joram

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I think your nitpicking now, you've obviously made up your mind not to get it even though some of your notions seem off. That's fine. I'm not a Civ or Steam apologist so each to their own. Enjoy not having Civ then. :)

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Post #: 84

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/24/2010 2:08:15 PM

Anthropoid

Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline

As discerning computer game-slut, I reserve the right to pick nits and pre-emptively savor the enjoyment of not having certain games

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Post #: 85

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/24/2010 2:13:28 PM

doomtrader

Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline

I've been playing for half an hour today and it looks fun.

Anybody knows how to adjust budget and increase science funds? (probably that's in the manual, but who reads manuals).

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Post #: 86

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/24/2010 2:18:38 PM

RedArgo

Posts: 524
Joined: 8/2/2004
From: Illinois
Status: offline

I read the manual! But I don't have the game yet.

I could be wrong, but I don't think there are sliders anymore. You just get the points that produced by your buildings, people, ect. The only exception is if you run out of gold it will eat in to your science points.

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Post #: 87

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/24/2010 2:35:32 PM

Zakhal

Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyv�skyl�, Finland
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If steam was the only thing on my plate life would be easy.

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Post #: 88

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/24/2010 2:38:26 PM

Joram

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

As discerning computer game-slut, I reserve the right to pick nits and pre-emptively savor the enjoyment of not having certain games

Hehe, I'm the same way.

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Post #: 89

RE: Civ 5 Manual - 9/24/2010 3:03:35 PM

ilovestrategy

Posts: 3611
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline

I love Steam. Been using it for years. I love having my games update without touching a thing. And no looking for stupid serial numbers on the back of a jewel case that's lost back in a closet somewhere. When payday comes I'll make my payment for Civ V and it'll download while I do something else like watch TV. Oh, and that's another thing. No more installing multiple disks.

The more I think about it the more I love using Steam.

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After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

(in reply to Joram)

Post #: 90