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Forest terrain - - 10/3/2010 8:28:56 PM

rickier65

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I didn't want to interupt MRs AAR

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gerry

Hello:

This scenario does not show dense forest terrain - looks like the area is very thinly populated with trees? I think even regular wooded areas would have trees closer together. Are there other maps with dense woods/forest?

Thanks,

Gerry

Here is a shot of another map with forest. The map maker, or scenrio designer can make the woods VERY dense. BUT, if you have large areas of very dense forest on a large map, you can start having performance issues.

Thanks
rick

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/3/2010 8:57:58 PM

gijas17

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Of course some of those trees can be cleared out by tanks as a video on here suggests.

< Message edited by gijas -- 10/3/2010 8:58:42 PM >

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/4/2010 9:23:44 AM

RockinHarry

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If I�m watching screenshots like this, I�m always evaluating from a modders and scenario makers point of view, partly as programmer too. Although the quality of tree objects and textures in PCO appear to be quite excellent (as appears other PCO content), the weak point looks like to be the 3D lighting (or lack of), preventing the really nice maps to have the required "depth" and really shine!

Assumption:

All game (static & dynamic) objects, with exception of the ground mesh cast live shadows(?).

You cannot switch single or groups of objects, to cast shadows or not (?).

Only the ground mesh "receives" shadows and does not "cast" any(?).

Shadows are a generic type that base on a single generic light source for all times of day (?).

From my judgement about the capabilities of the PCO editors, I would try the following to "improve" densely forested areas:

Seperate the edges of forests from the interior visually by:

Using the standard trees and an appropiate ground texture for the forest edges.

Using progressively darkened variations of the ground texture for the interior.

Using tree variations, that have the trunks and the lower parts of twigs and foliage darkened, for the interior.

I think this way one could improve the appearance of "depth" a lot, when looking into a forest from outside (any angle & range).

This is just some basic ideas, that also might help to conserve computer resources, with the exception of added texture memory demands.

From programming POV this process might be automated, by defining the forest interior area in the map editor and let the 3D engine adjust gamma to the ground textures and objects, within this defined area.

This also might solve the issue, that dynamic objects (infantry & vehicles), that move into the forest interior, do not shine out that much, since these don�t "receive" and benefit from shadows visually.

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/4/2010 9:42:15 AM

rickier65

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry

If I�m watching screenshots like this, I�m always evaluating from a modders and scenario makers point of view, partly as programmer too. Although the quality of tree objects and textures in PCO appear to be quite excellent (as appears other PCO content), the weak point looks like to be the 3D lighting (or lack of), preventing the really nice maps to have the required "depth" and really shine!

I'll try to answer some of these, but thre are quite a few I don't know answer to. (I'm not a modeller). if I don't know answer, I"ll simply skip it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
All game (static & dynamic) objects, with exception of the ground mesh cast live shadows(?).

most do, I cant say that all do. there is a setting in the object properties that indicates when an object casts or recieves shadows I believe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
You cannot switch single or groups of objects, to cast shadows or not (?).

See above, though I cant say wheter it works or not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
Shadows are a generic type that base on a single generic light source for all times of day (?).

No the light source changes, and if I recall so do the shadows, with time of day and location of map (lat long, and date).

quote:

From my judgement about the capabilities of the PCO editors, I would try the following to "improve" densely forested areas:

Seperate the edges of forests from the interior visually by:

Using the standard trees and an appropiate ground texture for the forest edges.

Using progressively darkened variations of the ground texture for the interior.

Using tree variations, that have the trunks and the lower parts of twigs and foliage darkened, for the interior.

I think this way one could improve the appearance of "depth" a lot, when looking into a forest from outside (any angle & range).

This is just some basic ideas, that also might help to conserve computer resources, with the exception of added texture memory demands.

these sound like some good ideas. they should be inserted into the Map Maker documentation.

Thanks for these comments. I'm pretty sure the folks currently making maps all read this forum, so this will help for future map work they will be doing.

thanks!
Rick

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/4/2010 1:09:42 PM

RockinHarry

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Thanks for the answers Rick!

I just found a wealth of info by master Stridor over at PcK forum, which I possibly should have looked at beforehand.

The more I read, the more I�m looking forward to PCO release.

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/4/2010 1:35:05 PM

Mad Russian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry

Assumption:

From my judgement about the capabilities of the PCO editors, I would try the following to "improve" densely forested areas:

Seperate the edges of forests from the interior visually by:

Using the standard trees and an appropiate ground texture for the forest edges.

Using progressively darkened variations of the ground texture for the interior.

Using tree variations, that have the trunks and the lower parts of twigs and foliage darkened, for the interior.

I think this way one could improve the appearance of "depth" a lot, when looking into a forest from outside (any angle & range).

This is just some basic ideas, that also might help to conserve computer resources, with the exception of added texture memory demands.

You've known me for a long time. We've written countless articles on how to design tactical scenarios together. I value your input as much as any gamer I know. I've already implemented every single one of your suggestions for that map. We are rapidly approaching a point where you can speculate PCO to death. Just understand that it will do anything I've ever dreamed of doing to a map and then goes way beyond that.

quote:

From programming POV this process might be automated, by defining the forest interior area in the map editor and let the 3D engine adjust gamma to the ground textures and objects, within this defined area.

This also might solve the issue, that dynamic objects (infantry & vehicles), that move into the forest interior, do not shine out that much, since these don�t "receive" and benefit from shadows visually.

All I can tell you is to wait until you get your hands on this map maker!

There are limits to what the system can bear at the moment though. I can't put 2 million trees on a map and have PCO run it. It checks LOS for every single structure that a designer puts on a map. That can mean every single tree until they block LOS. Not many computers in the world could do that. Mine wouldn't and I have a new one.

This map was an attempt to see where the boundaries are for the system. There are lots of ways to make the forest more dense 'looking'. Each week there are improvements to the system. We have to learn those and try to apply them as we go. That way you guys will at least get some idea of how the whole thing works.

Let me just say that the game system editor we wrote all those how to articles before is back at the dawn of time compared to this map maker. You won't soon find things with this one that you have to abstract.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/4/2010 3:07:20 PM

RockinHarry

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Steve, I�d initially put my questions in the wrong thread anyway and so it looks like I was "criticizing" your map in particular, which isn�t the case. I already noticed same stuff on other SSs, including those to be found at the offcial product page and PcK forum.

Off cause you guys have year long experience with the PC tools and my point of view is rather theoretical. Nontheless, I was expressing my interest and comparing what I learned from working with Men of War, UDK and Battlecraft42 3D game editors. Thus I know well about the technical stuff and my aim wasn�t just to "improve" on visuals, but also to the most resource friendly way.

I keep on reading through Stridors excellent tutorials, thus giving me the info I need, to get a grasp of how PC 3D game world works, without necessarily having the tools at hand.

I�ll get back into discussion, after purchasing PCO in early 2011.

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/4/2010 3:28:42 PM

Mad Russian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry

Steve, I�d initially put my questions in the wrong thread anyway and so it looks like I was "criticizing" your map in particular, which isn�t the case. I already noticed same stuff on other SSs, including those to be found at the offcial product page and PcK forum.

Off cause you guys have year long experience with the PC tools and my point of view is rather theoretical. Nontheless, I was expressing my interest and comparing what I learned from working with Men of War, UDK and Battlecraft42 3D game editors. Thus I know well about the technical stuff and my aim wasn�t just to "improve" on visuals, but also to the most resource friendly way.

I know you're not criticizing my maps. Even if you did that's okay. The MM was extremely resource heavy in the beginning but Stridor's a genius. Each new build allows more and more capability. There's really no telling what MM will be able to do by the time we get it released to you guys this year.

No, my point was more along the lines of, you can think of a million questions to ask me/us about it and there's just no way to describe all it can do. Just understand it can do everything you've asked and multiples more than that. If there is an issue with the maps displayed here in the forums it's because I'm not presenting them to you in the right manner. There's really no way to describe what this map maker can do until you start using it.

We've been associated with each other now for a lot of years. If we'd had this map maker all those years ago our scenarios would have been much the better for it. But we didn't. Once PCO is released though we will now. I can't wait to get with some of the 'old gang' and start to collaborate on some projects. The maps can now be made in extremely fine detail. No more tiles. When I was first told about MM I was extremely skeptical. Nothing I'd ever heard of compared with what I was being told. Then there was a process of simplifying the processes.

I can't say enough just how much Stridor has done with this entire project. But Map Maker is 100% his baby and for that the wargaming industry as a whole owes him a huge debt of gratitude. With his Map Maker he has set the bar for the rest of our hobby from here on out. This is the map making tool you have wanted since the dawn of time.

I know I'm on the development team, and the development team and beta testers are notorious for being upbeat about the games they work on. I'm upbeat about PCO as well. But that's not the same as when we are discussing Map Maker. I've given Stridor fits over it and at times I'm amazed he still talks to me. BUT Map Maker is the worlds best map making software for tactical wargames. Bar None! That is just a fact.

quote:

I keep on reading through Stridors excellent tutorials, thus giving me the info I need, to get a grasp of how PC 3D game world works, without necessarily having the tools at hand.

I�ll get back into discussion, after purchasing PCO in early 2011.

Rick has video tutorials as well. I'm hard on game companies that come along with games that have, 'high learning curves'. All that means is the documentation is poor and you have to figure it out for yourself. Map Maker doesn't have a high learning curve. After making about 2 maps it will be second nature to you.

I asked Stridor the other day a question about the basic terrain map and his answer was, that didn't concern me because I hand edit everyone of my maps. Which is true. You can get as detailed with MM as you want. You want telephone lines and fences around the house with the cow standing out by the barn? You can do that. You want to skip the telephone poles and add more trees? You can do that too.

You want to make a mod of the Reichstag down to the last brick and put it in the game? You can do that too.

You want to make a single building mod be anyone of 12 different kinds of building structure? You have 6 choices for a light structure and 6 choices for a heavy structure. All using the same building mod. I've included a screen shot.

What I'm trying to say is there is no way I/we can describe all the things that Map Maker can do. But I'd venture to say within the size limitations it can do anything you can think of in either Russia or Eastern Europe at the moment.

I can't wait until you have it too. Then the fun really begins, for all of the 'old gang', and the new gamers that will come to play as well!!

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/4/2010 3:41:24 PM

Mad Russian

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I forgot...I was rambling on so much....the numbers you see listed to the right of the structure type are building capacity.

The one that's highlighted is, Light / 1 / 1, which means 1 squad/ 1 story. It's a one story house that can be occupied by a single squad. With that in mind look at the possibilities a single structure can have in the game. That was becoming a problem in game play though so there was a feature added that allows you to simply click on a structure on the map during game play and it tells you what the capacity of the building is.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/4/2010 3:41:58 PM

Mad Russian

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And another.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/4/2010 3:43:03 PM

Mad Russian

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Here's a big one.

Good Hunting.

MR

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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 10/4/2010 3:44:00 PM >

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/4/2010 3:48:22 PM

Mad Russian

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But this thread is about forests. So let's take a look at some trees then.

Here is the structure selection for trees.

Light Tree
Tree
Heavy Tree

then of course there's just the forest itself;

Light Woods
Woods
Heavy Woods

Those are the selections for each tree structure you can put on the map.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/4/2010 3:50:55 PM

Mad Russian

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But what about the trees themselves?

First we have to get there. You have to find trees in the list of structures you can choose from.

Good Hunting.

MR

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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 10/4/2010 4:04:11 PM >

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/4/2010 3:56:44 PM

Mad Russian

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Then you have to decide what trees you actually want and in what numbers.

Here is the first page of trees.

There are live trees, dead trees, summer trees, autumn trees,winter trees, big trees, small trees, trees for all occasions and regions.

Good Hunting.

MR

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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 10/4/2010 4:07:12 PM >

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/4/2010 3:59:20 PM

Mad Russian

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Here is the second page. Notice the slider on the right. I've shown you about half the tree models you can use.

There are 4 pages of trees alone to pick from. There are 26 structure types in all to choose from.

You see, there's no way I can explain Map Maker to anyone that's not had it to play with.

And for every screen shot where the gamers like the Tigers and Panthers, there are mods, for the buildings and terrain, that are just as good or better. After Stridor's name in the credits should go the modders names! They have done a fantastic job with the graphics representations of our world.

Good Hunting.

MR

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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 10/4/2010 5:50:50 PM >

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/4/2010 4:28:21 PM

RockinHarry

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Steve, you�re mean! You can�t stop watering my mouth even more!

Truly looks like a map makers and modders dream!

Can you also get "underground" structures to work, like basements and dugout sorts of? So far, I understood that the 3D objects need to be prepared in a 3D application, with entry points added and such. I�ve also seen, that trenches, foxholes, rivers and other detail 3D objects ar at last molded into the base terrain mesh.

So I assume, it is theoretically doable, but the game engine is not (yet) prepared, to handle infantry units, that are visually taken off the face of the earth and no LOS or damage calculations can be made to them.

What about pillboxes, that can be occupied by both opponents alike?

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/4/2010 4:49:15 PM

Mad Russian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry

Steve, you�re mean! You can�t stop watering my mouth even more!

I tried to get you stop but you wouldn't so you just had to see it in person.

quote:

Truly looks like a map makers and modders dream!

PC was set up from the beginning to be really mod friendly.

quote:

Can you also get "underground" structures to work, like basements and dugout sorts of? So far, I understood that the 3D objects need to be prepared in a 3D application, with entry points added and such. I�ve also seen, that trenches, foxholes, rivers and other detail 3D objects ar at last molded into the base terrain mesh.

So I assume, it is theoretically doable, but the game engine is not (yet) prepared, to handle infantry units, that are visually taken off the face of the earth and no LOS or damage calculations can be made to them.

I should have known you'd have wanted to go underground!

quote:

What about pillboxes, that can be occupied by both opponents alike?

I know Mobius made the Maxim Gorky battery at Sevastopol but not sure if the game comes with bunkers. Wanting to go back and revisit the Siegfried Line are you? I thought about your scenarios when I saw you show up here on the forums.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/4/2010 5:07:24 PM

junk2drive

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The Maxim gorky battery is a tank turret so not mountable by troops. All the pillboxes and bunkers are structures just like houses and can be mounted by either side.

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/4/2010 5:09:47 PM

Mad Russian

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Now, there you go. J2D is a modder from way back. I'm sure the two of you can cook something up before we get through with this game series.

That's a prime example of what can be done. One of the largest gun batteries in the world was modded from a tank turret. As a tank turret without the tank. I don't think you can make submarines submerge in our lakes or oceans if they were put in PC but I wouldn't bet against it if you gave the development team a week.

Good Hunting

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 10/4/2010 6:33:53 PM >

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/4/2010 5:39:48 PM

rickier65

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry

Can you also get "underground" structures to work, like basements and dugout sorts of? So far, I understood that the 3D objects need to be prepared in a 3D application, with entry points added and such. I�ve also seen, that trenches, foxholes, rivers and other detail 3D objects ar at last molded into the base terrain mesh.....

PCO has fortifications and in Map Maker there is a setting for tagging a structure as one that "cuts out terrain". As I recall Stridor added this to accomodate NEW trench and dugout structures. If that is what you're talking about.

I don't believe any of the modellers on the team have created any dugouts (Mobius did some of the pillboxes I think). BUT, NEW models can be added to map maker by users. So maybe if you're a modeller, you'll be adding some new ones.

thanks
rick

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/5/2010 3:28:18 AM

RockinHarry

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I see a lot of nice stuff that one can create elaborate fortification lines or strongpoints from.

How do these trenches and fortifications work in the game actually? I�ve seen some SS anywhere, showing infantry (figures) adapting nicely to a trench object. Can you set protection factors manually or is this set in the game (generic trench "class" object)?

Pillboxes: Is this sort of fortified house class object that carries a whole squad of infantry? How is squad weapons used from these structures? Is the AI engine able to use these and able to deal with them?

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/5/2010 4:05:07 AM

Mad Russian

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EVERYTHING in PC can be set manually if it pertains to terrain, structures, vehicles, weapons or units. If you make it then it can be put into the game.

Harry, you're the fortifications expert. To be truthful with you I've not played with them yet to tell. I don't have any fortifications in any of my scenarios. Fortifications were a pretty rare breed of animal on the Eastern Front, so not much call for them. Not near as much as in the West.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 10/5/2010 4:08:09 AM >

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/5/2010 4:18:54 AM

benpark

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The amount of stuff that has been built for this update is really mind blowing when you look at the numbers (if I may toot our own horns). I made the trees and quite a few of the buildings/structures, and it's about a year and a half of model making and file adjusting.

The variety of trees that I have made gives you summer, fall, winter options in about 6-12 trees for each season. This also is rounded out by many varieties of shrubs and hedges.

I have also added new types of buildings that include German and "Middle European" house types. Lots of them.

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/5/2010 4:25:35 AM

RockinHarry

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I didn�t actually mean the Stalin line, Sevastopol or Leningrad fortifications, that include that concrete made pillboxes. I rather mean a few thousands kilometres of elaborate trench lines, including wooden pillboxes, dugouts, shelters and such.

Nogo without it, when speaking of true eastern front combat. Just imagine initial stages of Kursk, or the year long stalements near Leningrad, Volchov, Rshev salient, just to name a few.

Ospreys Fortress series (023 and 062 in particular) gives a whole lot of good info about this topic.

I�d be fine of having at least parts of that included in PCO, even if PC series is more geared towards tank combat.

< Message edited by RockinHarry -- 10/5/2010 4:33:20 AM >

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/5/2010 6:18:59 AM

junk2drive

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I just had a multiplayer battle with a new tester. He sent a few Panzers through a village, hoping to get cover from the trees scattered about. He was buttoned up from all the action. 3 of them were taken out by squads in houses using close assault. He should have scouted ahead with troops.

Infantry in PC is not as well animated as a FPS, the mount/unmount routine turns off some people, but PC is not an armour only game.

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/5/2010 7:07:30 AM

rickier65

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry

.......I rather mean a few thousands kilometres of elaborate trench lines, including wooden pillboxes, dugouts, shelters and such........

I�d be fine of having at least parts of that included in PCO, even if PC series is more geared towards tank combat.

I know Mobius has used trench fortifications in a number of his scenarios (at least i think they were mobius's). I know I've faced more than a few in the scenarios I've tested.

Oh, and if I understood your question about cover, they are part of a generic "trench" cover, ie, the benefits aren't set differently by the scenario designer.

Thanks
rick

Rick

< Message edited by Rick -- 10/5/2010 7:09:59 AM >

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/5/2010 1:47:27 PM

Mobius

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The fortifications are pretty generic and represent a form of "heavy" cover for infantry. So are not an armored target. We will have to wait for PC4 for fort types with armored values. We do have one turreted fort that does have an armored value but that is for a specific battle.

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/5/2010 7:03:46 PM

RockinHarry

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quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

The amount of stuff that has been built for this update is really mind blowing when you look at the numbers (if I may toot our own horns). I made the trees and quite a few of the buildings/structures, and it's about a year and a half of model making and file adjusting.

The variety of trees that I have made gives you summer, fall, winter options in about 6-12 trees for each season. This also is rounded out by many varieties of shrubs and hedges.

I have also added new types of buildings that include German and "Middle European" house types. Lots of them.

From what I�ve seen, this is truely beautiful artworks!

Question: I assume every single (tree) object has its own bounding box, used for LOS and collision tracing?

Assuming you seek to create a really "dense looking" forest, can you create a group of trees (maybe 10 to 20m square), incl. underbrush ect. in your 3D Editor and make just a single bounding box around it, to lessen the burden on the LOS/collision tracing engine? The right place for this single 10-20m size group then would be the interior of a dense forest.

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/5/2010 7:05:48 PM

RockinHarry

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rick

quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry

.......I rather mean a few thousands kilometres of elaborate trench lines, including wooden pillboxes, dugouts, shelters and such........

I�d be fine of having at least parts of that included in PCO, even if PC series is more geared towards tank combat.

I know Mobius has used trench fortifications in a number of his scenarios (at least i think they were mobius's). I know I've faced more than a few in the scenarios I've tested.

Oh, and if I understood your question about cover, they are part of a generic "trench" cover, ie, the benefits aren't set differently by the scenario designer.

Thanks
rick

Rick

Thanks, that answered my questions!

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RE: Forest terrain - - 10/5/2010 7:07:34 PM

RockinHarry

Posts: 2963
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mobius

The fortifications are pretty generic and represent a form of "heavy" cover for infantry. So are not an armored target. We will have to wait for PC4 for fort types with armored values. We do have one turreted fort that does have an armored value but that is for a specific battle.

Thanks. I�d be fine with that system and it would be a big step forward from what you can do in CMx1.

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Post #: 30