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Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/6/2010 1:00:04 PM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		I had to restart my month long campaign after I accidentally saved my Guadalcanal campaign over it. Oops...

The good part was rethinking the situation over after reading some more tips. Kudos to Sardaukar's AAR -- Your turn 1 stuff is in my binder now. Yes, I keep a binder now, since I've learned not to rely on my faulty memory. I'm still adjusting to the correct use of the ship classification symbols.

The upshot was making better use of the three RN DDs at Hong Kong. After surviving several air attacks without result, ("There is nothing so exhilarating as to be shot at without effect.") I figured the best use for them was to help out in the PI. I'm on Dec 10 right now.

On the way, they caught one of the IJN East-West convoys south of HK and beat the snot out of it. Reaching northern Luzon, they then proceded to maul a lightly escorted invasion convoy, putting off one landing for some time. The torpedoes worked, too.

I guess the point is that it did take me a few tries in the campaign to get one bright spot in the early war mess. One bright spot in my resistance. (besides smacking the Wake invasion with carrier A/C). I figure repetition will pound some wisdom into my head.

One question. Will the two B-10s on Luzon ever fly a mission? I've moved them to Clark with the 17s, but after three goes at the campaign, I've never seen them fly.

M-

< Message edited by Mundy -- 10/7/2010 1:00:12 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/6/2010 2:22:12 PM   
greg_slith


Posts: 490
Joined: 9/14/2004
Status: offline 		There seems to be a minimum number needed for a/c to fly strike missions. I've had the same issue with the B-10's and other squadrons that were down to 1 or 2 planes.

(in reply to Mundy)
Post #: 2
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/6/2010 3:13:47 PM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline 		Surface combat is lethal in AE. A single cruiser can often wipe out an AP convoy completely... just look at what Boise can do with a bit of luck.

The 4.7 - 5 inch guns on DDs are a bit gutless in comparison, but 3 DDs can probably put the hurt on a convoy quite effectively.

Only issue I found is that this cuts both ways, quite often my raider cruiser groups would go in and run into a wall of Japanese battleships (who can bum around most places with impunity given the lack of Allied torpedo bombers) and get annihilated.

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RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/6/2010 3:43:37 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		Those three RN DD's are really useful early on operating out of Manila.  I sent them up to Lingayan Gulf several times to break up invasion TF's, at least until the AI wised up and sent a hunter-killer TF of CA's and DD's to stop that nonsense.  My PT boats got in some licks there too.

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Post #: 4
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/6/2010 4:53:56 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
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From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Those three RN DD's are really useful early on operating out of Manila.  I sent them up to Lingayan Gulf several times to break up invasion TF's, at least until the AI wised up and sent a hunter-killer TF of CA's and DD's to stop that nonsense.  My PT boats got in some licks there too.




Or, just run for it and save them for another day. British DDs come with experienced crews and upgrade to decent ASW weapons fairly early in the war. This can prove to be a valuable asset as your ASW forces are going to blow for the first half of 1942 and Japanese subs are much more deadly than they were historically.

Use the clemson's for raiding in the early months. However, those clemsons that can upgrade to APDs are not to be wasted. APDs for the Allies should be looked upon as solid gold as they are very useful and very scarce.

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Post #: 5
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/6/2010 5:03:36 PM   
EUBanana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
Use the clemson's for raiding in the early months. However, those clemsons that can upgrade to APDs are not to be wasted. APDs for the Allies should be looked upon as solid gold as they are very useful and very scarce.


The problem with Clemsons is, those 4" guns are almost useless.

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RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/6/2010 5:16:28 PM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		I've also been running 3 US DD groups out of Manila for guerilla strikes.  When I first saw the RN replay, I thought it was one of those, until the torpedos hit.  I've also sent Houston out with these for good results.  When things get hairy, I'll pull them to a Dutch base.

What's the best way to sort out the optimal upgrade path for a specific class of ships?  I haven't even been thinking that far ahead, yet.

One more thing to sort out.  I'm just trying to get every piddling base supplied until I can spare the xAPs to consolidate.

I tend to run everything (supply & reinforcements) Pacific bound through Los Angeles.  Every usable LCU in the states hops on the train for LA.  Saves me from dealing out transports to ports.  I use Seattle for Alaska bound stuff.  Maybe it's not optimal, but it helps with the way I tend to organize things.

M-

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RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/6/2010 5:34:51 PM   
crsutton


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From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

I've also been running 3 US DD groups out of Manila for guerilla strikes.  When I first saw the RN replay, I thought it was one of those, until the torpedos hit.  I've also sent Houston out with these for good results.  When things get hairy, I'll pull them to a Dutch base.

What's the best way to sort out the optimal upgrade path for a specific class of ships?  I haven't even been thinking that far ahead, yet.

One more thing to sort out.  I'm just trying to get every piddling base supplied until I can spare the xAPs to consolidate.

I tend to run everything (supply & reinforcements) Pacific bound through Los Angeles.  Every usable LCU in the states hops on the train for LA.  Saves me from dealing out transports to ports.  I use Seattle for Alaska bound stuff.  Maybe it's not optimal, but it helps with the way I tend to organize things.

M-



You need to install WITP Tracker. A great utiltity for keeping an eye on these things such as upgrades.

Nothing wrong with using one major port in the US as a central hub, except that if your opponent figures it out he can concentrate subs there. Plus later in the game, you will be moving so much supply and troops that even one large port might not be able to handle the load.

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Post #: 8
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/6/2010 5:58:44 PM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		I've got Tracker.  I'm just not in the habit yet of looking at it every turn.

Yeah, I figure the pipeline will only be so wide.  If it gets too bad, I'll delegate to SF.  Once I settle into the campaign, I'll be able to feel out when the time is right.  I haven't PBEMed AE yet, but last time around, the AI had a few subs prowling the waters within a month.  Work for the YPs, I guess.

I did start out the initial supply surge from whatever bases the transports were at.  They'll just return to LA.  I was just wondering out loud if I'm in left field or not. 

In my UV PBEM that I've had going for a few months (my first PBEM campaign), I've found that I'm more likely to scrutinize every event in every turn.  I had never looked at daily air losses before.  Against the AI, I tend to just crank out turns.  I guess waiting for the daily turn makes one savor it more.

M-

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 9
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/6/2010 6:48:41 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

Yeah, I figure the pipeline will only be so wide.  If it gets too bad, I'll delegate to SF.  Once I settle into the campaign, I'll be able to feel out when the time is right.  I haven't PBEMed AE yet, but last time around, the AI had a few subs prowling the waters within a month.  Work for the YPs, I guess.



I use SF at least to 1/44. I feed PH steadily, and by then I have 5+ million there, ready to funnel to the PI or wherever. Never stop the CS flow to PH.

I think SF is superior to LA only because the satellite yard-cities around the Bay are the source of many/most of the Liberty/Victory ships you get in the game. Later on it's often going to be 4-6 per week. It's easier to group them into TFs and shift them one hex, safe from subs, to SF to do their jobs. Sending them to LA would cost fuel, time, and risk. SF is also the hub for auto-convoys if you use that feature.

But to each his own. LA is farther south, and that can have advantages for some destinations.

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Post #: 10
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/7/2010 1:49:03 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx

There seems to be a minimum number needed for a/c to fly strike missions. I've had the same issue with the B-10's and other squadrons that were down to 1 or 2 planes.


IIRC, the minimum number of aircraft to launch an attack is three so these B10s will not be able to pass that check. However, they are fairly decent at naval search...

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Post #: 11
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/7/2010 3:43:26 AM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		Regarding the three DDs, here's what they ran into off of Vigan. Much noise and fanfare, but no hits on either side.

Is there any way for them to re-arm their torpedoes at Manila, or must it be a British base? It would make sense, but the actual criteria would be helpful.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Laoag at 80,72, Range 8,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CVL Zuiho
CVE Hosho
CS Chiyoda
DD Usugumo
DD Nagatsuki
DD Harukaze

Allied Ships
DD Scout
DD Thanet
DD Thracian



Reduced sighting due to 28% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 28% moonlight: 8,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
Range closes to 9,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 8,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 8,000 yards
DD Thanet engages CVE Hosho at 8,000 yards
DD Scout engages CVL Zuiho at 8,000 yards
DD Usugumo engages DD Scout at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
DD Thracian engages CVL Zuiho at 9,000 yards
DD Usugumo engages DD Thanet at 9,000 yards
DD Usugumo engages DD Thracian at 9,000 yards
DD Thracian engages DD Usugumo at 9,000 yards
DD Thracian engages CVE Hosho at 9,000 yards
DD Thracian engages CS Chiyoda at 9,000 yards
DD Usugumo engages DD Thanet at 9,000 yards
DD Scout engages DD Usugumo at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 12,000 yards
DD Thracian engages DD Usugumo at 12,000 yards
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape
Task forces break off...

M-




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Mundy -- 10/7/2010 3:46:45 AM >

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Post #: 12
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/7/2010 12:33:58 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline 		How can they survive the Jap air in this area ?

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RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/7/2010 12:59:06 PM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		The CVs were more intent on hitting my minelayer group at Bataan.  These three ships have all dodged several attacks over the game.  Thracian's single hit was a single return shot from a convoy.  Nettie activity over the PI has picked up quite a bit over the last couple days, though.  My hit and runs have done well, but I'm going to have to pack 'em up soon.

I got over ambitious with the USN carriers.  Enterprise and Lexington combined near Wake.  KB hit targets around Pearl for about 3 days and then proceded to pound on Midway a week later.  I was playing a hunch that their sorties might be getting used up and charged the CVs in.  Shokaku ate some bombs and Hiryu took a torp and bombs, but my carriers now have mid-range damage.  Lex's flood damage is a tad high, but they should make it back.  I guess that's what I get for not following the universal US CV rule at start. (keep away)  A sub near Pearl had a shot at the Akagi, but the faulty torpedos lost that opportunity.

I have to look at this game as several small wars to keep my sanity.  I haven't really got my supply train to India setup yet

M-

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 14
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/7/2010 1:27:14 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline 		Hi,

"The CVs were more intent on hitting my minelayer group at Bataan"

Yup they are sometimes targeted at those small craft, also British HDML are a lickely target :) Interestingly in my 1st game (both allied) the Jap AI doesn´t hit the small craft they attack 10 times or so to destroy them. Now started a new game and the Jap does now sink the small TBs after 1-2 attacks already

In this game I gather most ships and run for it. Cause it seems these escort craft can be of use in 42+43. In first game I tried to hit and run also, guess some transports damaged or so but nothing serious so thought it is not worth it. I only use subs and small crafts. I also tried to load fuel on AKs and then flee, sometimes worked sometimes not (AI sank 3 AKS at Rangoon loading fuel right now). Guess the fuel is not needed for defense anyway and will be captured by Japs anyway. I got the message of 1 torp hit on a JAP BB, but maybe only FOW (hope not ). In first game a Jap CVL also got 6 torp shots (ALL of them faulty ).


"I got over ambitious with the USN carriers"

I was thinking the same like you.After KB leaves Pearl use the carriers to thwart Wake landings. I gaterhed them at a point at see near Johnston. So waited 1 turn - but KB was still there. They attack Midway !! Though ok. Midway is some hexes away from Wake.... But decided not to take the risk for small gain, Wake is not very worthy and will be taken anyway. I am now in 17. Dec. - Japs landed at Rabaul already. They oblitered a force of APs, AKs and escorts which should evacuate the Rabaul garrison (as they will die anyway). Huge blow at the beginning I must admit. These were 2 BBs + escorts there  Guess I also used the wrong order "remain on station" (will they flee then??), cause I wanted them to stay at Rabaul and load troops next turn. Normally a fleet without "remain on station" just leaves for home without loading anything.But I wonder if they also don´t flee enemy overwhelming forces with "remain on station"

" I was playing a hunch that their sorties might be getting used up and charged the CVs in."

I think (guess) the AI get´s bonus sorties, cause in my 1st game 1-2 CVs and 1-2 CVLs of the Japs patrolled quasi forever between Fiji and Noumea, all the way bombing and flying sorties. Or the Jap get´s general bonus for this in 41 + 42 or so

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RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/7/2010 1:34:30 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline 		Ah btw. the JAPS laid mines at Bataan - 3 of my subs hit, so get you ships out of Manila fast if the AI does the same maybe in your game   In Manila only the 3 damaged subs are left now. Phew. At least in fleeing I have some success.

Well one AP fleeing from east coast OZ was hit I learned better to evacuate as much as possible the east coast of Australia as AI tends to raid the area with CVs and Bettys starting in April or so.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 10/7/2010 1:37:55 PM >

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RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/7/2010 2:01:02 PM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		Yeah, I caught on to the Bataan mining early on --hence, the AMs parked there.  The first couple times around my subs were hitting them.

Rangoon's only suffered one raid so far.  Too many fish for the AI to fry, I guess.

Andy Mac's scripting has forced me to take nothing for granted.  In vanilla WITP, eight months into the game, Manila and Soerabaja were still holding out against repeated attacks (although I learned the folly of defending Rangoon).  I was actually moving stuff into Timor for an advanced base from Darwin.  This time around, I might as well hold back the ocean tide.

As far as the carrier incident, I should have known better.  I am extremely lucky to only have the damage that I do have after a couple of 300 plane strikes.  Hopefully good 'ol USN damage control will keep the Lex in good stead.  I actually wrote numbers down to keep track.  I wonder if Tracker keeps damage history?

M-

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Post #: 17
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/7/2010 2:43:11 PM   
Smeulders

 

Posts: 1879
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Status: offline 		It does

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Post #: 18
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/7/2010 2:45:32 PM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		Good to know.  I'm a bit clumsy with it yet.

M-

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Post #: 19
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/7/2010 3:36:15 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		DDs are very hard to hit with air attacks, especially if they are in TF without any bigger ships, that is. Allied skip bombing and dive bombers of both side do get hits, though.

Against AI, I have been able to run small 1-3 DD TFs around Java quite a while before IJN CV pilots finally get them..usually CVs are busy hammering easier targets.

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RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/7/2010 3:42:41 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline 		Yes, tracker tracks also repairs (but I don´t use it anymore to time consuming).

"I was actually moving stuff into Timor for an advanced base from Darwin."

I also thought I could do this (1st game). Didn´t work at all - also Darwin needs to supplied per sea which means even more danger. IF Darwin would be a normal base with rail connection the chance would be better (and if the Japs were not so godlike in the first 5-6 months). Well all the stuff surrendered in Koepnang I had there, this was the result of trying to reeinfore it.

I will try also the destroyer run around trick :)

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 10/7/2010 3:43:47 PM >

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Post #: 21
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/7/2010 3:57:58 PM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		Well, it was WITP1,  and the entire Japanese offensive was seriously stalled.   I can't even consider such a move this time around.  While they were tied up, not only did I keep Wake, I took Iwo and Marcus.  I had been doing some early raids against the Home Islands.  IIRC, KB was safely tucked away at Hong Kong.

A Human player would not have let this happen.

At this point, I'll probably let the Commonwealth carry the baggage in the SW Pacific.  I'm favoring a WPO style direct run.  It depends on if I hit any capacity walls at some of the stops.

M-


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Post #: 22
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/11/2010 5:06:48 PM   
shall59

 

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Status: offline 		I'm Allies vs AI in my games. It's Oct 42 and Rangoon is still holding out and has over 45k supply. It will eventually fall but for now it's keeping 93k Japs tied up. Darwin had 100% damage to everything due to daily Betty raids, but with some hard work I've got it built up and holding its' own now. I held Wake and now wish I hadn't. Keeping it supplied is more trouble than it's worth at this point in the game. I've always wanted to try your strategy of going straight for the heart but never had the nerve to; didn't want to play for three months and find out I made a bad mistake.

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Post #: 23
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/11/2010 7:41:13 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Those RN DDs at Hong Kong have to be accounted for, as well as all surface ships in the DEI. The IJN player has to escort all transport convoys, or risk having them destroyed by just a couple DDs.

The bright side is that the IJN player should have piles of surface ships to commit to the DEI in the first couple months; there isn't a great need outside of the SRA, other than escorting a few landings in the Pacific.

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Post #: 24
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/12/2010 1:11:44 PM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		Yeah, I've noticed a lot of convoys heading west just south of HK.  I was amazed at how it wasn't too hard to intercept.

After my recklessness with my carriers, I've done a restart.  I was only about 10 days in.  It does take me about three evenings to get Dec 8 set up.  I've found, though, with each restart, I'm noticing more useful details.  I learned (very) early always to sweep the waters of Bataan.  I know enough to mine the crap out of the Dutch base in NW Borneo (Kuching?)

This may go against the grain here. but even though I disband TF Z on Dec 7, I always send them up to contest the nearest landing to the north on the 8th. (vs the AI anyway)  More often than not, at least one of the duo will survive.  Last time, Haruna took a serious pounding from the three 15" shells I landed on her.  I figure that real-life doctrine would have demanded it.  If they make it back, honor satisfied, I'll withdraw them to Columbo.

M-

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Post #: 25
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/12/2010 2:19:16 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		Your RN DD's will rearm their torpedoes just fine at Manila if you've still got the AD at that port.  When the AI got its troops too close to that city, though, I evacuated Black Hawk, Pelias and every other support ship I could move out of there and down to Darwin.  It was a close thing too; the AI's advance had already taken Davao and I barely managed to sneak the TF through their tightening air cover.  Also got the Bataan and Cebu Base Forces out and down to Oz, where they were invaluable in getting Darwin up defense-wise.  Also, consider evacuating some of the British base forces out of the DEI and Singapore.  You'll need them later, but you have to be quick about it.

(in reply to Mundy)
Post #: 26
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/12/2010 3:19:07 PM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		That sounds right.  I had Black Hawk evacuated early.  I'm still setting up the first turn, so I can fix that.

As far as the LCUs, that's pretty much exactly my thinking.  First priority goes to the Oz units once they reach Singapore.  From there I start with the southern-most Dutch base units, starting on Timor and working north.  Last time, I was too late with Cebu and lost the transport.  All this has to be combined with miserly expenditure of PPs to keep the flow efficient.  Darwin becomes the HQ for ABDA.  Of course, the more you save from the East, the less that's immediately available from the States.  But I figure nothing too major will happen from that direction right away.

M-

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Post #: 27
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/12/2010 3:39:28 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		The good thing about Cebu and Bataan Base Units is it requires no PP's to make them available for evacuation.  Just load them up and head south.  I think there's another PI base unit that can be moved as well.

I started at the north and NW and began evacuating units south to Oz.  The Dutch units got left for last, but since there's very few replacements for them they weren't all that valuable anyway.  The British and US units can rebuild even if you just get a fragment out though.

(in reply to Mundy)
Post #: 28
RE: Scrappy RN Destroyers - 10/12/2010 3:52:41 PM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		I think the Dutch are useful in the beginning anyway.  Aussie base forces seem to be at a premium at the start.  I've got the mass hinterland exodus to Brisbane underway.  I've got get all the scattered puzzle pieces reassembled.

Back in Vanilla against the AI, I saved a large chunk of the Dutch forces.  The Martin squadrons got rather skilled, and I wound up letting them keep their B-10s instead of upgrading.  I have a feeling I'll have a harder time duplicating that here -- especially with a more aggressive AI in AE.

As it is, I seem to be acquiring a perverse joy in setting up Dec 8.

M-

< Message edited by Mundy -- 10/12/2010 5:43:44 PM >

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