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Replayability and price

 
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Replayability and price - 10/7/2010 3:46:30 PM   
mgdpublic

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 12/15/2006
Status: offline 		I just tried out the demo and have to wonder about the price especially given my concerns about replayability. For the same reason that designers chose not allow the player to play Rome, it seems there are only a few smart choices for Hannibal as well. While the cards may be different every time, that doesn't seem like enough for real replayability.

This game is pretty clearly based on the awesome board game "Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage" but is much much more stripped down and only playable as one side. The upshot of this game is the AI of course. But $40 just seems like too much for the amount here. This seems like a 25 or $30 game at most. Can someone convince me the full game is really worth that price?

< Message edited by mgdpublic -- 10/7/2010 3:47:30 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Replayability and price - 10/7/2010 4:47:04 PM   
PJJ

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline 		In my opinion, it definitely is. I know I've wasted more money into some games that I've played much less than Hannibal. There are quite a few things that can happen and change how the game plays out, and the AI puts up a really good fight, especially when playing at the hardest difficulty level. Gameplay is so smooth that it's very easy to start a game and see how it goes. If you happen to lose, it's not a big deal to start over and do things differently. There's no trace of the usual tediousness of wargaming here. I'd say this is a must buy if you happen to be interested in ancient history and warfare.

It'd be a shame if people didn't support this game and any potential future projects in the series just because they hope to save a few dollars. Are Matrix games really that expensive when you think about how easily you can waste the price of a game by going to a restaurant (or something) for a couple of hours?




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Post #: 2
RE: Replayability and price - 10/7/2010 8:01:38 PM   
Brutus

 

Posts: 112
Joined: 2/25/2003
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mgdpublic
[...]
This game is pretty clearly based on the awesome board game "Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage" [...]


No, it is not based on the really great Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage but on the older and much less popular Hannibal: Rome and Carthage in the Second Punic War 219-202 B.C..

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Post #: 3
RE: Replayability and price - 10/7/2010 8:46:34 PM   
Johnus

 

Posts: 615
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline 		After running this game through my highly sophisticated, secret and proprietary "Game Valuation Calculator Program," I can state, with absolute certainty, that this game is worth precisely: $68.87.

(in reply to PJJ)
Post #: 4
RE: Replayability and price - 10/8/2010 1:05:23 AM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		I just played a non-Matrix "strategy" game for 30 minutes before deleting it. Can you plug that into your calculator?

With Hannibal, just a little something to sweeten the pot--maybe in a patch--would get a few people off the fence.

(in reply to Johnus)
Post #: 5
RE: Replayability and price - 10/8/2010 3:17:41 AM   
emerson

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 3/24/2009
From: Fort Worth
Status: offline 		Quiet you... $68.87, I'm still playing the demo hoping by the time I compete well enough with the AI on "easy" the game will be on sale...

(in reply to Rosseau)
Post #: 6
RE: Replayability and price - 10/8/2010 8:00:15 AM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2930
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Murderous Missouri Scum
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Johnnie

After running this game through my highly sophisticated, secret and proprietary "Game Valuation Calculator Program," I can state, with absolute certainty, that this game is worth precisely: $68.87.


Hahaha!!

Finally someone's poking fun at the 'value' question.

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Post #: 7
RE: Replayability and price - 10/14/2010 12:54:56 PM   
diablo1

 

Posts: 994
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

Are Matrix games really that expensive when you think about how easily you can waste the price of a game by going to a restaurant (or something) for a couple of hours?


Well let's put it in another perspective shall we? Paying $40 for every game I buy on a $400 a year budget I can only buy 10 games a year. Paying $8 for discounted older games that were once great games I can buy 50 games a year. If you've looked at Steam, Impulse, D2D, Gamersgate, and GOG lately you'll see they have a lot of great game choices for that $8 figure a lot more now. Why I even got "Time of Wrath" for $7 the other day off of Gamersgate. Look how much Matrixgames wants for it here. hahaha

I really hope more and more independent developers move to Paradox and Stardock and those other places for their distribution avenues. Because they aren't getting anything off of "no sales at $40 here" vs at least something off of an even $8 sale at those other places.

As it is I don't buy 50 games a year, but, then again I don't spend $400 a year on games anymore either.

Now I'm not saying every game Matrixgames sells is "overpriced" like Forge of Freedom and Crown of Glory are certainly worth their prices for all you get, but, this game and BftB are certainly overpriced.

(in reply to PJJ)
Post #: 8
RE: Replayability and price - 10/14/2010 1:07:17 PM   
Miket_nz

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 8/28/2007
Status: offline 		Given how few good games there are on this particular topic, I would have probably bought it even if it was bad. Just to encourage game designers to treat this era in the future.

Fortunately, this is a cracker of a little game and well "worth" the money in my opinion. But then "worth" is a very personal value judgement. The constraint I have is time not money for games, so I am really really happy with Hannibal, because it plays relatively quickly causes me lots of headaches in tough strategic choices and when you beat the romans you are really really satisfied...

The AI is razor sharp and will hand you your head on a platter if you are not 100% on your game, even then you risk getting beaten....

I rate this game a must by and it only cost me "6 pints" where I live, so for the price of a [insert here 40 mins to 3 hours] drinking I've had a bloody good time with Hannibal and his chums


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Post #: 9
RE: Replayability and price - 10/15/2010 10:41:49 AM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2930
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Murderous Missouri Scum
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

Paying $8 for discounted older games that were once great games I can buy 50 games a year.


You're not gonna find new games for $8. Sorry.


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Post #: 10
RE: Replayability and price - 10/15/2010 11:01:06 AM   
diablo1

 

Posts: 994
Joined: 2/27/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel


quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

Paying $8 for discounted older games that were once great games I can buy 50 games a year.


You're not gonna find new games for $8. Sorry.



It depends on ones definition of "new", newly released no, new to me, yes and yes to $8

(in reply to NefariousKoel)
Post #: 11
RE: Replayability and price - 10/16/2010 8:06:10 AM   
papajack

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 2/11/2010
Status: offline 		They are cheap but once the company go bust , you lose the ability to reinstall the games and they are as good as gone  

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Post #: 12
RE: Replayability and price - 10/16/2010 10:24:31 PM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		Speaking of sales, Battlefront has slashed everything. And that does not make me happy, because I paid full price for all that stuff over the past year. If I waited, I would have saved about $110.

So, bizarre as it seems, I sort of like Matrix's policy. I don't have to worry that the game I buy for $40 will be sold for $20 in six months. Time of Wrath and a couple of others are exceptions to the rule, but they were discounted by the big outlets.

So when Grigsby's WitE game comes out, I can buy it immediately and not feel I should have waited for a sale.

Sorry, back to Hannibal...


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Post #: 13
RE: Replayability and price - 10/16/2010 11:14:47 PM   
derwho

 

Posts: 236
Joined: 8/22/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Hi,

This is definitely worth your money. This is the best s*it I've played since I first got my hands on Armored Brigade.

Cheers,

Anssi

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Post #: 14
RE: Replayability and price - 10/17/2010 1:42:50 AM   
diablo1

 

Posts: 994
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: papajack

They are cheap but once the company go bust , you lose the ability to reinstall the games and they are as good as gone  


Nope, because now there is GOG and you can get games of companies that have been long gone for nearly 20 years now. Like Master of Magic, Master of Orion 2, Betrayal at Krondor and many more and they are getting more old games all the time now. Their games range from $2.99 to $9.99 also and many great games that will work on Vista and Win7 machines now.

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Post #: 15
RE: Replayability and price - 10/18/2010 1:32:01 AM   
Arctic Blast


Posts: 1168
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1


quote:

ORIGINAL: papajack

They are cheap but once the company go bust , you lose the ability to reinstall the games and they are as good as gone  


Nope, because now there is GOG and you can get games of companies that have been long gone for nearly 20 years now. Like Master of Magic, Master of Orion 2, Betrayal at Krondor and many more and they are getting more old games all the time now. Their games range from $2.99 to $9.99 also and many great games that will work on Vista and Win7 machines now.


And none of them are new games by a long shot, meaning they hardly apply in a discussion of new game pricing.

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Post #: 16
RE: Replayability and price - 10/18/2010 8:57:28 AM   
diablo1

 

Posts: 994
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast


quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1


quote:

ORIGINAL: papajack

They are cheap but once the company go bust , you lose the ability to reinstall the games and they are as good as gone  


Nope, because now there is GOG and you can get games of companies that have been long gone for nearly 20 years now. Like Master of Magic, Master of Orion 2, Betrayal at Krondor and many more and they are getting more old games all the time now. Their games range from $2.99 to $9.99 also and many great games that will work on Vista and Win7 machines now.


And none of them are new games by a long shot, meaning they hardly apply in a discussion of new game pricing.


Every one of them was a new game at one time bz. I'm not talking about every newly released game being $8, man some people need to start thinking outside the lines.

quote:

You're not gonna find new games for $8. Sorry.


Also Nefarious you are wrong here as well since shortly after Victoria origional was released it fell to .99 and just recently HOI III fell way below $8 shortly after release. So, yes I can get New games for $8 or less occassionally as well. Mount & Blade origionally also came out at $7.50 on Steam shortly after its release. Oh an another one I just recalled Combat Mission:Shock Force fell to $4.00 shortly after its initial release because it was so bug ridden like the rest I listed above except for M&B.

< Message edited by diablo1 -- 10/18/2010 9:13:33 AM >

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Post #: 17
RE: Replayability and price - 10/18/2010 2:56:52 PM   
Toby42


Posts: 1626
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
Status: offline 		Hey Diablo! Just wondering, have you bought this game yet?

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Tony

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Post #: 18
RE: Replayability and price - 10/18/2010 6:41:58 PM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2930
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Murderous Missouri Scum
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1


Nope, because now there is GOG and you can get games of companies that have been long gone for nearly 20 years now. Like Master of Magic, Master of Orion 2, Betrayal at Krondor and many more and they are getting more old games all the time now. Their games range from $2.99 to $9.99 also and many great games that will work on Vista and Win7 machines now.


Then that's likely where you should be buying stuff if it's the only ones within your budget. Complaining about new games not costing less than ten or twenty bucks is a waste of time and very fantastical.


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Post #: 19
RE: Replayability and price - 10/18/2010 11:09:24 PM   
Arctic Blast


Posts: 1168
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast


quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1


quote:

ORIGINAL: papajack

They are cheap but once the company go bust , you lose the ability to reinstall the games and they are as good as gone  


Nope, because now there is GOG and you can get games of companies that have been long gone for nearly 20 years now. Like Master of Magic, Master of Orion 2, Betrayal at Krondor and many more and they are getting more old games all the time now. Their games range from $2.99 to $9.99 also and many great games that will work on Vista and Win7 machines now.


And none of them are new games by a long shot, meaning they hardly apply in a discussion of new game pricing.


Every one of them was a new game at one time bz. I'm not talking about every newly released game being $8, man some people need to start thinking outside the lines.

quote:

You're not gonna find new games for $8. Sorry.


Also Nefarious you are wrong here as well since shortly after Victoria origional was released it fell to .99 and just recently HOI III fell way below $8 shortly after release. So, yes I can get New games for $8 or less occassionally as well. Mount & Blade origionally also came out at $7.50 on Steam shortly after its release. Oh an another one I just recalled Combat Mission:Shock Force fell to $4.00 shortly after its initial release because it was so bug ridden like the rest I listed above except for M&B.


Most of the prices you're listing were temporary sales, NOT permanent price drops. Those happen regularly, then the price goes back to what it was before.

As for the actual price drops you listed...CMSF and Victoria...did those drops happen within a couple weeks of release? No. They happened over time, so it's not comparable to the situation with a game only a few weeks old like Hannibal.

Now, I DO think Matrix and others need to start looking at the prices of more of their back catalog, particularly games that have been out for years, but that's a different situation from a game that hasn't been out for a month.

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Post #: 20
RE: Replayability and price - 10/19/2010 12:53:58 AM   
diablo1

 

Posts: 994
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale

Hey Diablo! Just wondering, have you bought this game yet?


Nope I played the demo though and my whole point is the game is still not worth $40. It's a $19.99 game at best. Single player, can only play one side and there's really no variance as it's just a small area of the entire world at that time. Lot's of things were going on in those regions and many things could have happened to change that history it just happens there was only one that played out.

Those that think it's worth $40 more fun to yah, I and others though disagree. I like to get "lots" of value for my money and I just don't see it here. There's too many other games that offer a lot more for even less as I've stated (even newly released games). Plus whether it's a few weeks or even a few months price droppings of computer games is more common than ever now after the initial release and that's a fact. It wasn't even 6 months after CMSF and Victoria were released that their lowest prices were seen and HOI III even sooner. The majority of mainstream games now drop way down in price in less than a year and many in less than 6 months. All one has to do is just keep an eye on STEAM or D2D or GAMERSGATE and find them easily. Even Gogamer.com now as well.

Even HPS games can all be had for $29.95 which when brand new retail for $49.95 at their main site. So don't give me games don't go down in price upon release.

Matrixgames appears to be the only one that sticks to their prices of their old games like glue and then price gorge some of the new ones out of sales range for a lot of their customers or would be customers. Thier latest ones being BftB and now this one. I can hardly wait to see the price of Gary Grigsbys War in the East and World in Flames if it ever gets finished.

(in reply to Toby42)
Post #: 21
RE: Replayability and price - 10/19/2010 6:14:53 AM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2930
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Murderous Missouri Scum
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale

Hey Diablo! Just wondering, have you bought this game yet?


Nope I played the demo though and my whole point is the game is still not worth $40. It's a $19.99 game at best.


Who let Ravinhood back in?


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Post #: 22
RE: Replayability and price - 10/19/2010 11:04:05 AM   
PJJ

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline 		This discussion is pretty useless, as always. Some people will always find the prices of games too high (some would probably complain even if the developers gave them money to play their games), and some will happily pay whatever the companies ask for their products. And if somebody has to count every dollar in order to be able to purchase one game, then maybe he has bigger problems with his personal economy and needs to start prioritizing things. Video games shouldn't be top priority then. But that's just my opinion, like everything else in this post.

However, this game is a real gem and definitely worth more than 20 bucks. It's been ages since I enjoyed a wargame as much as I enjoy Hannibal.


_____________________________

"But here we are in a chamber pot, about to be ****ted upon."

-French General Auguste Ducrot before the Battle of Sedan, September 1870

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Post #: 23
RE: Replayability and price - 10/19/2010 11:36:48 PM   
mgdpublic

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 12/15/2006
Status: offline 		This discussion is definitely not useless. Matrix needs feedback on how their customers feel about their pricing. I am pretty much the exact target market for this game. I own roughly 8 of Matrix's games. Regarding Hannibal, I love the period, the gameplay, and have more than enough disposable income. I love simple strategic games with complex choices but low counter density. I've played the board game Hannibal: Rome v Carthage many many times and have a collection of 70 board and wargames. This game is a low production value (though certainly not ugly) port of a 30 year old somewhat simplistic board game in which you can only play one of the sides. I think Matrix is merely pricing this based on the idea that this is a niche game and that niche gamers will pay through the nose to play it. How much do you think the development costs for this game were? Christ, the rule set was already created for them and the algorithms for battle aren't exactly complex. I can see myself enjoying a game or two, but how many ways can Hannibal really invade Italy? I'd consider the game at $30, definitely buy it at $25, but consider it an insult at $40.

(in reply to PJJ)
Post #: 24
RE: Replayability and price - 10/20/2010 12:52:04 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Hi guys,

Feedback is always valuable, but obviously we are in some disagreement here. We're also in the target audience ourselves and we feel the price is quite fair on its own for the quality of the game and the amount of gameplay. This is clearly intended for wargamers who like the ancient period, prefer games that are not too complex or lengthy but have deep strategy and primarily play against the AI. For that audience, we feel this game is an excellent value and one of the strongest releases for that audience in a long while.

If you disagree with the pricing, there's no need to imagine any insult. We've provided a very full featured demo and there will eventually be a sale for this title as well, at which time those who are on the fence because of the price will be able to pick it up at a lower price point. In the meantime, I think many other folks are finding it to be a pretty good bang for the buck.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 25
RE: Replayability and price - 10/23/2010 3:25:04 PM   
Astyreal


Posts: 37
Joined: 10/2/2010
Status: offline 		I whole-heartedly concur. $40 doesn't break the bank, stop whinging please. Hannibal is shaping up to be my game of the year as judged by amount of time spent playing, thinking, and importantly for me ANTICIPATING playing. Lord knows I have sunk an impressive amount of time in more fully featured, well researched, moddable, exhaustive simulations on any number of topics (no offense to a myriad of other matrix titles). However my general mood when double clicking on one of the icons is "sigh...". It is often more work than pleasure, and I constantly have to push myself onwards to keep playing! Needless to say those titles often gather dust very quickly.

Hannibal truly hits the sweet spot, great depth, challenging AI, and it rewards players with layered play but doesn't over-burden them with complexity for its own sake.

Bravo bravo.

...now go make more!

Asty

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 26
RE: Replayability and price - 10/25/2010 2:39:22 PM   
jhdeerslayer


Posts: 1194
Joined: 5/25/2002
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		Actually has great replayability as I have to play over and over again as I can't win. One tough AI and every turn a nail biter. Most excellent $40 I have spent in a long time. Every restart presents a different situation in my experience and no two games I have had my arse handed to me have been the same.

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Post #: 27
RE: Replayability and price - 10/25/2010 3:09:34 PM   
SteveD64

 

Posts: 570
Joined: 10/26/2006
From: Shaker Hts, Ohio, USA
Status: offline 		Completely agree that there's replayability in this.  My favorite game of the year.

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Post #: 28
RE: Replayability and price - 10/31/2010 10:15:25 AM   
Joseph_Nevsky


Posts: 46
Joined: 7/28/2009
From: Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Deerslayer

Actually has great replayability as I have to play over and over again as I can't win.


+1

I´m reading AARs and so on looking for some clues but... I never win!
(I´ll try today, again... )


EDITING: no luck at all...
(it´s a little bit frustraiting, but I´ll try again in 2 or 3 days...)

< Message edited by Joseph_Nevsky -- 10/31/2010 10:50:21 PM >

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Post #: 29
RE: Replayability and price - 11/5/2010 12:58:10 AM   
mercenarius


Posts: 653
Joined: 7/6/2010
Status: offline 		I'd like to invite you (Joseph_Nevsky) and the Deerslayer to PM me so that I can understand where you are getting stuck. With your assistance I can then post some kind of addition to the strategy guide or a "battle manual" to help new players.

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Post #: 30
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