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RE: D21 v2.3 - 8/1/2011 12:42:50 AM

DRSTX

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While folks are reviewing this fine scn, can I suggest a fix to the soviet fleet assets? I find that after Lenningrad falls, the baltic fleet keeps reappearing endlessly. I also noted that the axis never gains any naval capacity after Lenningrad falls. While Im asking, Id like to also be able to see the Black Sea fleets when they are 2 hexes out and pounding the crap out of my units working on Sevestapol. As it is now, they are immune to return attacks as I cant see them during the axis turns, and frankly I think thier artillery values are hugely overrated.

So far my impression of the game is its highly enjoyable. Lenningrad may have fallen a bit easy but the pre April scn sure makes Moscow and Rostov a puzzle due to massive lack of supply. Im interested in seeing how well the new file works. Can I use the April file version by copying it in a game already in progress? Will those supply depots work then?

Regards,
Dan

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Post #: 61

RE: D21 v2.3 - 8/1/2011 7:34:03 AM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

... after Lenningrad falls, the baltic fleet keeps reappearing endlessly.

We fixed that in later versions. What version do you have?

quote:

... the axis never gains any naval capacity after Lenningrad falls.

I don't think they need it, and if they did have it then it could be used in the Black Sea also.

quote:

... Id like to also be able to see the Black Sea fleets ...

Unfortunately, there is nothing we can do about that. Maybe in the future there will be a patch to correct some of the naval issues.

quote:

Can I use the April file version by copying it in a game already in progress?

Sorry, but the games in progress are a separate file and won't be affected by newer versions. I think somebody said that we could edit a game in progress, but I haven't tried it to see if its possible.

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Post #: 62

RE: D21 v2.3 - 8/1/2011 7:34:51 AM

sPzAbt653

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stutter.

< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 8/1/2011 7:35:20 AM >

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Post #: 63

RE: D21 v2.3 - 8/4/2011 11:30:30 AM

samba_liten

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I don't know how constructive this is, but as far as my game goes, the severe slowdown of the PO started and ended at the same times as it got the winter offensive shock bonus.

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RE: D21 v2.3 - 8/4/2011 2:24:55 PM

sPzAbt653

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I wish there was something we could do to speed it up. Sometimes even I get frustrated waiting up to 2 hours for Elmer to figure out what he is doing.

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Post #: 65

RE: D21 v2.3 - 8/4/2011 2:42:31 PM

Panama

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I don't think the poor guy can handle such a large amount of informtion quickly.

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RE: D21 v2.3 - 8/4/2011 2:53:29 PM

samba_liten

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Consider yourself lucky. Im running TOAW on a netbook, which means hitting end turn in the evening and waking up with the PO only just finishing its moves...

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RE: D21 v2.3 - 8/4/2011 4:37:03 PM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

ORIGINAL: polarenper

Consider yourself lucky. Im running TOAW on a netbook, which means hitting end turn in the evening and waking up with the PO only just finishing its moves...

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Post #: 68

RE: D21 v2.3 - 8/4/2011 6:56:34 PM

Panama

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quote:

ORIGINAL: polarenper

Consider yourself lucky. Im running TOAW on a netbook, which means hitting end turn in the evening and waking up with the PO only just finishing its moves...

Wow. That means you're almost playing the game in real time.

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Post #: 69

RE: D21 v2.3 - 8/4/2011 7:16:34 PM

samba_liten

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A turn a day keeps the doctor away...or how did it go?

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RE: D21 v2.3 - 8/7/2011 8:21:07 PM

Judykator

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Bautrupp Units not moving (movment 0/0)???
Scenario version downloaded from:
http://tiberappraisalservices.appraiserxsites.com/TOAW

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 71

RE: D21 v2.3 - 8/7/2011 8:23:31 PM

samba_liten

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Just embark them and move them by rail. They aren't supposed to fix broken rail manually anyway. The auto fix will happen close to where you put them, even if they are still embarked.

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RE: D21 v2.3 - 8/12/2011 12:04:58 PM

requiem72

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Yes they do, but I got the feeling that they changed something with the new D21 2.3 version.
right now i�m playing a "southern approach " with the new version, and I need to stack four (4)

RR Regiments just to repair one hex per turn.
I don�t know if the terrain influences the probability of the repair or if the overall probability has changed, but I�m suffering from the lack of supply.
Having started a second time I used the Brandenburgers to secure rail lines to profit from the reduced rail damage ( bad gamy exploit

)
I don�t think this is what the designer wanted.
Personally I think the balance needs some finetunig.
Maybe an event that would provide an axis supply point, let�s say in Kiev.
I�m not much into the game mechanics, but something feels wrong.

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Post #: 73

RE: D21 v2.3 - 8/12/2011 4:11:39 PM

sPzAbt653

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Excerpt from post #42 on page 2 :

v2.3
Some changes to help the Axis supply/rail situation:
Axis Rail Damage is 0% on turn 1, 25% on turn 2, 75% on turn 3, and 100% on turn 32. Axis Forward Supply Dumps (75% supply points) will be established at Pskov, Riga, Bryansk, Smolensk and Kiev. These will be removed 20 turns after they appear (except the one at Riga, which stays for the duration).

So you should see the supply points that you suggested at Kiev and the other locations.

quote:

... and I need to stack four (4) RR Regiments just to repair one hex per turn.

That is actually about right. 3 or 4 units per Army Group to keep each one with a rail line trying to catch up to the front.

Good luck in the southern approach. I tried that on my last go around, and made it to turn 170 before I realised I screwed up. I had sent too many panzers into the south where they just stacked up in bottlenecks and were overkill, while I had few reserves for the rest of the front to help contain Elmer when he became attack happy. Next time, maybe two Pz Armies into the south, while the other two back up the rest of the front. I think the Axis would have had trouble maintaining two or more Pz Armies beyond Rostov anyway.

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RE: D21 v2.3 - 8/21/2011 11:37:40 AM

requiem72

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Facepalm!!!!!

those who can read do have an advantage.

I�ve just taken a look at some old saves of my " northern Approach " with your first version.
Rail repair is really much more difficult.
I still have a question.
will only those hexes next to the unit be repaired, or is there a chance of a repair two or even three hexes away?
If so I could really set a Schwerpunkt by stacking them up to 9 units.

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RE: D21 v2.3 - 8/21/2011 8:50:54 PM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

... is there a chance of a repair two or even three hexes away?

Yes. Its based on percentages, so the more repair units that you have near a location, the better the chance for multiple repairs. Watch what happens over the longer run (10 turns minimum), because results from just a couple turns could be deceiving.

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RE: D21 v2.3 - 8/22/2011 10:28:21 AM

samba_liten

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I'm playing an older version, so this might have been fixed already, but just in case...

There is a fixed artillery, coast bat unit that is set to arrive as reinforcements in hex 79,134. It never arrives, because that hex is water.

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RE: D21 v2.3 - 8/22/2011 1:25:23 PM

sPzAbt653

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And a few others. Thanks for catching that.

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RE: Directive 21 v2.0 - 8/23/2011 2:08:40 AM

Grungar

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In a nutshell

I'm on turn 8 In version 1.1 reaching pskov velike luki vitebsk orsha rogachev and kiev line. If i had known how to use the rail dudes i'm sure i would be dominating the upper dnepr as i am the dvina. My point is that giving the germans more supply ie the new points might be be giving the player to much. But this is just a first impression. The other topics in the dsicussion( including my issue) for the update were handled by everyone involved up to now as if it was avalon hill discussing it!..I have never seen such a thread. The feel of the scenario recreates the atmososphere i have craved from a russian campain since i first read fugates masterpiece in 1983.

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RE: Directive 21 v2.0 - 8/23/2011 4:08:58 AM

sPzAbt653

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Thanks very much for the kind words.

If you are using version 1.1, you won't get the new supply points. The reason they were added was to offset the difficulties that TOAW v3.4 added when D21 v.2.0 was modified for its use.

Sorry about the rail repair unit confusion. Its well explained in the briefing, but we know its difficult enough to read those things, let alone remember everything.

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RE: Directive 21 v2.0 - 8/24/2011 8:44:36 PM

samba_liten

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quote:

19. Volks Grenadier Divisions:

As all Volks Grenadier Divisions where actually reconstructed Infantry Divisions, there are none of these Divisions in Directive 21. The Divisions were named Volks (peoples) Grenadier Divisions to boost morale and to encourage the German people. They were in fact, a bit weaker than normal German Infantry Divisions in Artillery, as there where shortages of 105mm Howitzers at the time.

I am nit picking now, but as i am suffering from a severe shortage of Germans around turn 100, here goes anyway.

I have gotten onto the VGD's in my TO&E project, and it turns out not all of them were reconstructions. Some were freshly raised. Details in the .pdf or on request if needed.

EDIT: 16 divisions so far!

Anyway, it's a small point, and i doubt many people will make it until the VGD's start appearing anyway!

< Message edited by polarenper -- 8/24/2011 9:30:57 PM >

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RE: Directive 21 v2.0 - 8/24/2011 10:04:20 PM

BigDuke66

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Yes looks like those are newly raised and used on the east front:
320. Volks-Grenadier-Division(formerly 588. Volks-Grenadier-Division)
349. Volks-Grenadier-Division(formerly 567. Volks-Grenadier-Division)
That is just a quick check but most seem to have been used on the west front, some have a really weird heritage renamed several times etc. altogether a real mess so one must closely check if a VG is really new or if it's based on a division already in the game, if so there should be no need to put the VG in.
Problem is even when not using remnants as base for the VG they are often raised because a another divisions was destroyed, those 2 are replacement for the destroyed 320. & 349. Infanterie Divison but if those are reconstituted ingame again and again then there is no need to put them in.

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 8/24/2011 10:06:23 PM >

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RE: Directive 21 v2.0 - 8/24/2011 11:02:07 PM

samba_liten

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The 16 i mentioned are the ones i'm sure about. Good point about the western front though. I'll have to check that too.

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RE: Directive 21 v2.0 - 8/25/2011 12:41:59 PM

samba_liten

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Having done some checking, here are the divisions that are eligible for the eastern front:

563. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Formed 17th August 1944 from the Grenadier-Lehr Division, as 563. Grenadier-Division. Renamed 563. Volks-Grenadier-Division 9th October 1944. Served in the Courland pocket with the 18th Army until the end of the war. http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Volksgrenadierdivisionen/563VGD.htm
541. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Formed 7th July 1944 as a Sperr-division. At some point in August it was renamed 541. Grenadier-Division, and then, on 9th October 541. Volks-Grenadier-Division. The division served with Heeresgruppe Mitte on the Narew river. After the Soviet winter offensive it made its way to Heeresgruppe Nord, fighting in East Prussia. It ended the war with Heeresgruppe Weichsel at Swinemunde.http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Volksgrenadierdivisionen/541VGD.htm
542. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Formed 8th July 1944 as a Sperr Division. At some point it was renamed 542. Greadier-Division. 12th August it was renamed 542. Infanterie-Division. 9th October it was renamed again, this time to become 542. Volks-Grenadier-Division. At this point Grenadier-Brigade 1131 was incorporated into the division. It served on the Narew with Heeresgruppe Mitte, then Heeresgruppe Weichsel in west Prussia, and ended the war directly subordinated to OKH.http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Volksgrenadierdivisionen/542VGD.htm
544. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Formed 10th July 1944 as a Sperr-Division. Renamed 544. Grenadier-Division, then, on 9 October, renamed 544. Volks-Genadier-Division. Served with Heeresgruppe A in Poland. Ended the war in Czechoslovakia with 1.Panzerarmee.http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Volksgrenadierdivisionen/544VGD.htm
545. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Formed 10 July 1944 as a Sperr-Division. Renamed 545. Grenadier-Division, and assigned to 17. Armee. 9 October renamed 545. Volks-Grenadier-Division, and served with Heeresgruppe A and Mitte untill the end of the war.http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Volksgrenadierdivisionen/545VGD.htm
547. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Formed 11 July 1944 as a Sperr-Division. Renamed 547. Grenadier-Division, and assigned to Heeresgruppe Mitte in Lithuania. 9 October 1944 renamed 547. Volks-Grenadier-Division. It retreated into Poland, where it was destroyed in February 1945. It was reformed in March and assigned to Heeresgruppe Weichsel.
548. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Raised 11 July 1944 as a Sperr-Division. Renamed 548. Grenadier-Division and assigned to Heeresgruppe Mitte in Lithuania. 9 October renamed 548. Volks-Grenadier-Division and served with Heeresgruppe Mitte and Nord until April when it disappears from the sources.
549. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Formed 11 July 1944 as a Sperr-Division. Renamed 549. Grenadier-Division, and assigned to Heeresgruppe Mitte in lithuania. 9 October renamed 549. Volks-Grenadier-Division. It served with Heeresgruppe Mitte, Nord and Weichsel.
551. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Fromed 11 July as a Sperr-Division. Renamed 551. Grenadier division and assigned to Heeresgruppe Mitte in Lithuania, where it was nearly destroyed in the soviet offensive. 9 Octobe enamed 551. Volks-Grenadier-Division, and served with Heeresgruppe Mitte and Nord.
558. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Formed 11 July 1944 as a Sperr-Division. Renamed 558. Grenadier-Division, and sent to lithuania. 9 October renamed 558. Volks-Grenadier-Division. Served with Heeresgruppe Mitte and Nord.
561. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Formed 24 July as Grenadier-Division Ostpreussen 1. 6 August renamed 561. Volks-Grenadier-Division. Served with Heeresgruppe Mitte and Nord.
562. Volks-Grenadier-Division
Formed 24 July 1944 as Grenadier-Division Ostpreussen 2. 27 July, renamed 562. Grenadier-Division and assigned to Heeresgruppe Mitte. 9 October renamed 562. Volks-Grenadier-Division. Served Heeresgruppe Mitte until destroyed in the Heiligenbeil pocked. The staff was used to form a RAD division.

That makes 12 divisions so far. They were formed as part of the 29th welle, and later updated to the TO&E of the 32nd welle.

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RE: Directive 21 v2.0 - 8/25/2011 1:25:13 PM

sPzAbt653

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I checked my notes and found nothing for these VG Div's, so I can assume they've been overlooked for D21. I also checked another scenario I did and the ones you mention above are all in, so I can assume I've been thru them all to verify their deployments. So it seems a good idea to add them in.

Their arrival date is a question, as they should be timed with a German reversal of fortune and the inability to keep up with losses. Late '44 seems too arbitrary, but maybe tied to a proximity warning for when the Soviets advance into Poland would work.

Once you get the TOE's for the 32nd Wave done, I can add these in.

Thanks Fred !

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RE: Directive 21 v2.0 - 8/25/2011 1:56:24 PM

samba_liten

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The 32nd is done, and anyway it's the same as the 29th, which i think made it into the upload last night.

I'm hoping to finish off the infantry before i go back to work in a couple of days, so it'll be there soon either way.

While I'm here, let me ask what scenario it might be that you mentioned, and if the Lebensraum scenario on your site is good for a test play?

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RE: Directive 21 v2.0 - 8/25/2011 5:10:40 PM

BigDuke66

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Crap I jumped over those renamed from Grenadier divisions no wonder my list is so short, nonetheless don't forget:
320. Volks-Grenadier-Division(formerly 588. Volks-Grenadier-Division later Schatten-Division "M�ckern")
349. Volks-Grenadier-Division(formerly 567. Volks-Grenadier-Division)

I guess there aren't any events left to make the VG divisions optional? A lot of them appeared to plug the hole that appeared after the destruction of Heeresgruppe Mitte, I guess no player will suffer in this way under Elmer.

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RE: Directive 21 v2.0 - 8/25/2011 5:39:44 PM

samba_liten

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The 320th was a replacement for the destroyed 320th ID, if i read it right. http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Volksgrenadierdivisionen/Gliederung.htm

Likewise, the 349th was replacement for the destroyed 349th ID.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Volksgrenadierdivisionen/349VGD.htm

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RE: Directive 21 v2.0 - 8/25/2011 9:35:11 PM

BigDuke66

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Well it says it was the replacement for the 320. Infanterie Division but there is nothing that indicates it was formed out of remnants of that division, the sources there say it was formed out of the 588. Volks-Grenadier-Division "M�ckern", same counts for the 349. Volks-Grenadier-Division that was formed out of the 567. Volks-Grenadier-Division as replacement for the 349. Infanterie-Division.
I guess they could have also ended up as replacement for any other division that was destroyed, question is what does the player need at that point of the game?
If the old divisions all stay and the VG divisions just raise the number of infantry divisions is that really good?
Won't the player have already a hard time filling up the normal infantry divisions?
I guess some late war feedback is needed on this part.

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RE: Directive 21 v2.0 - 8/25/2011 9:53:56 PM

samba_liten

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That's the point. The 12 divisions i listed had nothing what-so-ever to do with previously destroyed divisions, and thus, to my mind, they would represent a net increase in forces. The ones numbered after an old division have been disqualified.

I take your point that any of these divisions could have been raised to replace any old division, regardless of numbers, but if we follow that line of reasoning, i don't see why any of them should be added.

I think Steve is on the right track with some kind of proximity trigger on the border with Poland. If the Soviets get that far, the Germans are in trouble, and it would be reasonable to assume that they would convert all these training divisions and what have you into field divisions to strengthen the line. This is what the 12 divisions represent. The reset of the VGD would be covered by units returning to the game in the normal way.

Somewhat arbitrary, i know. However that is the basis on which i chose the divisions. Otherwise the list would be much longer.

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