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Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/12/2010 2:32:29 AM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
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Hi guys,

Any news as far as multiplayer with Harpoon 3.10?

Thanks!

Post #: 1

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/12/2010 2:39:19 AM

uncleharpoon

Posts: 106
Joined: 11/28/2004
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The feature is still in there, along with the "VCR" feature.

_____________________________

Don Gilman
AGSI
http://www.computerharpoon.com
http://www.h3milsim.com

(in reply to mikmykWS)

Post #: 2

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/12/2010 2:47:37 AM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
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Great. Have the guys been having a good time testing it? I always thought it was the best thing players were getting out of the whole project.

No pressure but think an AAR or something would probably be great. People need to hear more about whats good about this game.

(in reply to uncleharpoon)

Post #: 3

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/12/2010 7:11:19 PM

Bucks

Posts: 679
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

Good point Mike.

I'd even looked at modifying a Perl based "stats" program that might allow for the creation of a ladder based system of ranking MP games as exists on many FPS - First Person Shooter, servers.

Of course that's way down my "to do" list and I've never claimed to be a coder of any skill level but have worked with scripting a little and will at least try my hand at it.

I also believe it may be a good way to help new players. For example, games might be organised to allow a couple of new players on opposing sides to be teamed with an "old hand" each as a mentor and help them learn the ropes of what is obviously a fairly complex gaming system. I think Harpoon can lose some of the new players due to the steep learning curve, and MP might just be the way to make the learning experience a little easier and enjoyable.

Darren

_____________________________

*******************************************
Editor HUD-II/HUD3 Harpoon Databases

http://www.taitennek.com/hud3-db/hud3-index.htm

Development Team H3ANW v3.8, v3.9, v3.10 & v3.10.1
*******************************************

(in reply to mikmykWS)

Post #: 4

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/12/2010 10:09:24 PM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks

Good point Mike.

I'd even looked at modifying a Perl based "stats" program that might allow for the creation of a ladder based system of ranking MP games as exists on many FPS - First Person Shooter, servers.

Of course that's way down my "to do" list and I've never claimed to be a coder of any skill level but have worked with scripting a little and will at least try my hand at it.

Nowadays you probably wouldn't use Perl but there are tons of solutions out there that really anybody could install and manage. Take a look at what some of the Steel Panthers groups have done with their ladders(The Blitz etc.) and you probably have a great model with the very little technical hoops to jump though. PHPbb(forums), CMS's might actually provide you the tools/plugins to build a ladder with no coding on your part (well beyond knowing where files etc).

quote:

I also believe it may be a good way to help new players. For example, games might be organised to allow a couple of new players on opposing sides to be teamed with an "old hand" each as a mentor and help them learn the ropes of what is obviously a fairly complex gaming system. I think Harpoon can lose some of the new players due to the steep learning curve, and MP might just be the way to make the learning experience a little easier and enjoyable.

Darren

I think its great you're thinking that way Darren and hope you're able to make it happen. Post when its up and I'll be there.

Thanks!

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 10/12/2010 10:16:55 PM >

(in reply to Bucks)

Post #: 5

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/12/2010 10:16:55 PM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: koelbach

I think there should be an official AGSi ANW MP server. That would be great.

Probably a great idea from a testing standpoint too. Never know what else somebody's computer might be serving

Post #: 6

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/13/2010 2:59:17 AM

uncleharpoon

Posts: 106
Joined: 11/28/2004
Status: offline

Howdy

1. We have designed and started (and stopped) coding on a scoring system for MP. If we get enough interest we'll move it up on the backlog.
2. There are two folks who have offered to provide dedicated computer resources for MP play. More testing is GOOD. We do less MP testing than SP testing (I admit it).

DRG

_____________________________

Don Gilman
AGSI
http://www.computerharpoon.com
http://www.h3milsim.com

(in reply to mikmykWS)

Post #: 7

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/14/2010 10:39:16 PM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: uncleharpoon

Howdy

1. We have designed and started (and stopped) coding on a scoring system for MP. If we get enough interest we'll move it up on the backlog.

How do you gage interest? Have a place people can vote, post to or whatever on any particular thing?

quote:

2. There are two folks who have offered to provide dedicated computer resources for MP play. More testing is GOOD. We do less MP testing than SP testing (I admit it).

DRG

Great fans for offering to do that. Shows a commitment on their side to help move multiplayer forward.

What are other things people can do to help you move forward? Knowing this might help shape expectations to match actual outcomes.

Thanks!

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 10/14/2010 11:16:52 PM >

(in reply to uncleharpoon)

Post #: 8

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/15/2010 4:45:11 AM

TonyE

Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk
What are other things people can do to help you move forward? Knowing this might help shape expectations to match actual outcomes.

Thanks!

My experience running H3MP servers (four concurrently with different databases, what joy...

Three elements are needed imho:
1. Tiny scenarios for two or more players. By tiny I mean that they play in 45 minutes or less. Even small scenarios of today take an hour or more to play in MP. Just because a scen plays in 20 minutes in SP doesn't mean it takes 20 for MP (think 4-6 times that). These are needed to set the hook on a good number of players so they come back and start to rationalize that spending more time is worthwhile.

2. Old hands to walk people through their first MP games. Herman bless his soul does a great job with this, but then we all know that and it makes us sad that nodoby else can do a great job with it. Others need to do that well or better. You log on to the server and see this black and green screen of nothingness; one needs a human to pull you out of the dark and into the action.

3. The marketing campaign, AARs, whipping up fan support on the forums. It is a long, slow process but can be done. This includes infiltrating other MP game communities. I was pulled into TacOps by a Harpoon player and that TacOps player shared Harpoon with a few people. Sometimes serious wargamers are in the only genre they know and just need to see the genre they were meant for but missed. The PR war is huge and as you know Mike, Harpoon lost that long ago and has every right to be shoved aside by Red Pill, GCB, and any other group that can keep it together. Granted I hope something miraculous happens with Harpoon and it returns to honored position on its own merits rather than the failure of alternatives, but I'm not holding my breath for those changes in Harpoon.

Hehe, and don't get me wrong, I love Harpoon in all its variants and am a primary steward of HC but in the end that's all the time I have, time for stewardship, not to turn the game into a product of today with the capabilites we dream about and really should, imho, expect. Harpoon provides me with entertainment and I like to share that with others, that's why I'm here.

< Message edited by TonyE -- 10/15/2010 4:50:01 AM >

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to mikmykWS)

Post #: 9

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/15/2010 9:40:58 AM

Vincenzo_Beretta

Posts: 440
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: Milan, Italy
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A good first IMHO step would be to fix bugs. Both elation and desperation are moot when the product is broken in the first place. But that's just me, and I know that it is an unpopular idea.

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(in reply to TonyE)

Post #: 10

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/15/2010 6:15:05 PM

FreekS

Posts: 323
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline

I have also hosted a server for a few hundred games, and in addition to Tony's points, two more are needed

4. Support to set up the server and get through the firewalls and port settings (roughlz the same complexity as the PEEK and POKE commands in BASIC on the Commodore VIC 20 were)

5. Either the host needs to be present when multiplay in in grogress or one of the players needs to have remote access to the server to reset the server after the frequent crashes and freezeups.

However, MP is much more fun than solitaire.

Freek

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Post #: 11

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/15/2010 7:16:37 PM

Dimitris

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Joined: 7/31/2005
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If all goes well, the MP server for Red Pill should be able to address the technical problems/limitations.

We are aiming for a mechanism that:
* re-starts automatically upon encountering any problem
* recovers gracefully from mid-game crashes and resumes from the last healthy point
* requires no firewall config
* can handle large scenarios

We are learning from the mistakes of those before us, and building upon their experience.

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 10/15/2010 10:07:08 PM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/15/2010 8:13:22 PM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyE

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk
What are other things people can do to help you move forward? Knowing this might help shape expectations to match actual outcomes.

Thanks!

My experience running H3MP servers (four concurrently with different databases, what joy...

Thanks for doing that Tony. Don is very lucky to have you around.

Should be fine on a vm right?

quote:

Three elements are needed imho:
1. Tiny scenarios for two or more players. By tiny I mean that they play in 45 minutes or less. Even small scenarios of today take an hour or more to play in MP. Just because a scen plays in 20 minutes in SP doesn't mean it takes 20 for MP (think 4-6 times that). These are needed to set the hook on a good number of players so they come back and start to rationalize that spending more time is worthwhile.

Sounds easy enough. How has the core group been doing with creating scenarios for HUD and the stock DB? Any place I can grab them?

quote:

2. Old hands to walk people through their first MP games. Herman bless his soul does a great job with this, but then we all know that and it makes us sad that nodoby else can do a great job with it. Others need to do that well or better. You log on to the server and see this black and green screen of nothingness; one needs a human to pull you out of the dark and into the action.

3. The marketing campaign, AARs, whipping up fan support on the forums. It is a long, slow process but can be done. This includes infiltrating other MP game communities. I was pulled into TacOps by a Harpoon player and that TacOps player shared Harpoon with a few people. Sometimes serious wargamers are in the only genre they know and just need to see the genre they were meant for but missed. The PR war is huge and as you know Mike, Harpoon lost that long ago and has every right to be shoved aside by Red Pill, GCB, and any other group that can keep it together. Granted I hope something miraculous happens with Harpoon and it returns to honored position on its own merits rather than the failure of alternatives, but I'm not holding my breath for those changes in Harpoon.

Hehe, and don't get me wrong, I love Harpoon in all its variants and am a primary steward of HC but in the end that's all the time I have, time for stewardship, not to turn the game into a product of today with the capabilites we dream about and really should, imho, expect Harpoon provides me with entertainment and I like to share that with others, that's why I'm here.

Wow, sound like a whole lot of worry Tony but know you're a smart guy and will be able to work though it. I feel lucky to not have to worry about that kind of stuff. Anyways.. will follow up on your suggestions as I've got time.

Thanks!

o

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 10/15/2010 8:43:57 PM >

(in reply to TonyE)

Post #: 13

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/15/2010 8:25:48 PM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta

A good first IMHO step would be to fix bugs. Both elation and desperation are moot when the product is broken in the first place. But that's just me, and I know that it is an unpopular idea.

Vinnie!

Yeah agree and on the flip side the active community needs to be a little more congenial in their reporting and dealings with the devs. I think there is some give and take if you're interested in a getting/building a good game.

(in reply to Vincenzo_Beretta)

Post #: 14

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/15/2010 8:45:36 PM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
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Anybody seen Dale btw?

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 10/15/2010 8:46:17 PM >

(in reply to mikmykWS)

Post #: 15

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/16/2010 1:04:18 AM

Bucks

Posts: 679
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

Mike,

Here or in general? I could pass on a msg and have him contact you. I think he's given this up. I spoke to him after I'd escaped the hospital recently and he said he'd had his "fill" for now.

Quickest way would be an email I think.

Cheers

Darren

(in reply to mikmykWS)

Post #: 16

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/16/2010 1:14:02 AM

Bucks

Posts: 679
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: uncleharpoon

The feature is still in there, along with the "VCR" feature.

Hi All,

For people wishing to record VCR files I just wanted to take this opportunity to make sure everyone understands that, the VCR files are "locked" to the DB version they were recorded with.

If you install an update of whatever DB you used to record the VCR file, you should keep a copy of the previous versions of that DB. There's no way to rebuild a VCR file, so to keep your library "intact" you'll need to keep all the DB versions you've used to create your VCRs. I've a 29gb file here that I need to track down the HUD3 I used to create it with so I can watch it. After 3.10 is released of course.

Cheers

Darren

_____________________________

(in reply to uncleharpoon)

Post #: 17

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/16/2010 2:12:07 AM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks

Mike,

Here or in general? I could pass on a msg and have him contact you. I think he's given this up. I spoke to him after I'd escaped the hospital recently and he said he'd had his "fill" for now.

Quickest way would be an email I think.

Cheers

Darren

Ha yeah that sounds like Dale! Just wondering hows he's doing. Haven't seen him in ages.

(in reply to Bucks)

Post #: 18

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/16/2010 5:59:36 AM

Vincenzo_Beretta

Posts: 440
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: Milan, Italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk
Vinnie!

Yeah agree and on the flip side the active community needs to be a little more congenial in their reporting and dealings with the devs. I think there is some give and take if you're interested in a getting/building a good game.

I fully agree. However, when providing a full, constantly up to date bug list, of bugs found using the original DB, with a save detailing the bug and the condition where it appears... when all of this makes someone UNCONGENIAL, I don't for them see many ways to go out the steel box they locked themselves in.

I'm prefectly able to lose weight and live an healhier life: just don't ask me to stop smoking, to stop eating junk food, and to start a regular cycle of exercises. Everyone agrees that it would be a "congenial" plan!

Pity that it will also not work.

_____________________________

(in reply to mikmykWS)

Post #: 19

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/16/2010 7:27:19 AM

FreekS

Posts: 323
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline

Rumour is, theres a new server up somewhere in South America and a game is scheduled tonight.

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Post #: 20

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/16/2010 11:08:53 AM

Bucks

Posts: 679
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta

I'm prefectly able to lose weight and live an healhier life: just don't ask me to stop smoking, to stop eating junk food, and to start a regular cycle of exercises. Everyone agrees that it would be a "congenial" plan! Pity that it will also not work.

That's all a question of personal motivation (will power) it has nothing to do with anyone but yourself. I would suggest congeniality is somewhat of a symbiotic interaction. It will not matter how congenial the atmosphere is if you simply don't want to be part of it.

Do you follow the laws regarding paying tax or driving on the road or just selectively?

Adjective: Congenial
Suitable to your needs or similar to your nature.
"a congenial atmosphere to work in"; "two congenial spirits united...by mutual confidence and reciprocal virtues"

Darren Buckley

_____________________________

(in reply to Vincenzo_Beretta)

Post #: 21

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/16/2010 12:03:47 PM

Bucks

Posts: 679
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FreekS

Rumour is, theres a new server up somewhere in South America and a game is scheduled tonight.

Thx Freek,

In light of that, I'd like to ask Tony if "lag" upsets the way a MP game behaves itself? I've mentioned in the past my "obsession" with Counter Strike Source and almost without exception MP servers will have a 200 millisecond "lag or latency" limit. Meaning that, if you're lagging more than 0.2 of a second the server will kick you...

I wonder if we're not falling victim to servers that are simply outside of the optimal latency values to allow the MP version of ANW to function effectively? While playing CS I've only ever played on a server outside of Australia a couple of times and that server was based on the US West coast (California)with a lag time of approximately 120 milliseconds (luckily CS Source uses interpolation to keep everything happening "at once".

I've just checked the South American CS Source servers and with approximately two dozen servers showing up, I have latency times of between 453 milliseconds and 1936 milliseconds (almost 2 seconds!!!). I'm not a tech, but I doubt an ANW MP server will function as intended if one player is lagging 2 full seconds behind the current game time? I mean you only have to miss a server "update cycle" once and you can be dropped.

Tony, do you have any thoughts on this based on your extensive experience running MP games for ANW?

Cheers

Darren

_____________________________

(in reply to FreekS)

Post #: 22

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/16/2010 2:50:58 PM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk
Vinnie!

Yeah agree and on the flip side the active community needs to be a little more congenial in their reporting and dealings with the devs. I think there is some give and take if you're interested in a getting/building a good game.

I fully agree. However, when providing a full, constantly up to date bug list, of bugs found using the original DB, with a save detailing the bug and the condition where it appears... when all of this makes someone UNCONGENIAL, I don't for them see many ways to go out the steel box they locked themselves in.

I'm prefectly able to lose weight and live an healhier life: just don't ask me to stop smoking, to stop eating junk food, and to start a regular cycle of exercises. Everyone agrees that it would be a "congenial" plan! Pity that it will also not work.

Sure Vince.

Whats gonna be nice is when Harpoon and all these projects take off a little bit and people are more focused on playing the games and not so concerned about the other stuff.

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 10/16/2010 3:16:57 PM >

(in reply to Vincenzo_Beretta)

Post #: 23

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/16/2010 3:09:30 PM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FreekS

Rumour is, theres a new server up somewhere in South America and a game is scheduled tonight.

If its real and not rumour look forward to hearing about it Freek.

(in reply to FreekS)

Post #: 24

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/16/2010 3:26:19 PM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: koelbach

quote:

ORIGINAL: FreekS

I have also hosted a server for a few hundred games, and in addition to Tony's points, two more are needed

4. Support to set up the server and get through the firewalls and port settings (roughlz the same complexity as the PEEK and POKE commands in BASIC on the Commodore VIC 20 were)

5. Either the host needs to be present when multiplay in in grogress or one of the players needs to have remote access to the server to reset the server after the frequent crashes and freezeups.

However, MP is much more fun than solitaire.

Freek

+1 in all aspects.

and why is that Ralf. If there has **really** been a couple of hundred games played why is the developer still talking about help with testing. The community needs to be a little more interested in being honest about whats going on then self promotional. So maybe there might be a bug report/AAR or something tangible coming out of South America tonight other than rumours.

Just saying...

Post #: 25

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? - 10/16/2010 9:20:34 PM

Vincenzo_Beretta

Posts: 440
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: Milan, Italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta

I'm prefectly able to lose weight and live an healhier life: just don't ask me to stop smoking, to stop eating junk food, and to start a regular cycle of exercises. Everyone agrees that it would be a "congenial" plan! Pity that it will also not work.

That's all a question of personal motivation (will power) it has nothing to do with anyone but yourself.

Exact. I cannot lend my personal willpower to someone else so that bugs will be fixed. I'm happy to see that you got it at the first attempt.

quote:

I would suggest congeniality is somewhat of a symbiotic interaction. It will not matter how congenial the atmosphere is if you simply don't want to be part of it.

Which is why developers should be "congenial" to paying customers, and not the other way around. But, as I often say, maybe it's just me.

However, if you realy want more "congeniality", fix the bugs. I assure you that this will make a lot people a lot more "congenial" overnight. Well, maybe not the dudes working on "Red Pill", but everybody else will.

< Message edited by Vincenzo Beretta -- 10/16/2010 9:27:04 PM >

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Post #: 26