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Re: Re: Re: The Unbeatable Panther G Uhu - 8/26/2002 11:17:38 AM

tohoku

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tomanbeg
Originally posted by tohoku

It could not see through smoke, and certainly not through vehicle-generated smoke (as the Russians did with sprayed oil/fuel over the exhausts). Even modern systems have almost no ability to see through vehicle-generated smoke.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]

Maybe yours can't, but the Abrams can. so can the FLir's mounted on AH's. I think it is called "Raliegh scaterring"

[/QUOTE]

Putting aside your interesting description of what IR is, the fact remains that even modern systems have trouble with smoke that contains hot particulate matter.

Sure, vehicle smoke not be terribly effective, but it was just an example from the period people were talking about.

Quite a few vehicles are equipped (it's not like it's hard to build!) with smoke launchers these days that generate smoke that is very difficult if not impossible to see through, thermal sensors or no. They do this by containing material that burns at variable rates for the duration of the smoke itself: present a cloud of material burning at different rates and most sensors have trouble. The WW2 Uhu system certainly couldn't have coped. In order to see through this sort of smoke you need a *very* hot heat source on the other side in order to pick out - an Abrams is actually easier to see through smokes than many other types of vehicle simple because of the *huge* and intense heat signature it has.

More interestingly, a lot of the new smokes system are also using prismatic particals in order to defeat laser ranger - you might be able to see something well enough through smoke to shoot at it, but you still won't be able to range on it accurately. Vehicle-generated smoke also coincidentaly has the same effect, although, again, it's a bit random in effect.

It's entirely possible to build a system that *will* see through almost any smoke or obscuration (look at the British system for photomapping through cloud for a related example!), but the problem is building one that can deal with the processing involved in real time.

Modern systems do a better job than in the past, but they're not invincible, no matter how often you believe the advertising, T.

tohoku
YMMV

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Post #: 31

- 8/27/2002 4:26:34 AM

G_X

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From: Atlanta, Georgia
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The best of both worlds, IR and Light Enhancement, are coming together soon.

Neat ****, heard about it on Mail Call I believe, definitly was a History Channel show.

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Post #: 32

- 9/6/2002 12:41:35 AM

Commander Klank

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From: Killleen, Texas
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I know of a guy who got his butt kicked by these Panthers becouse they were firing trough his smoke screens AND out to 30 hexes:eek: at night.

Seems the real system could NOT see through smoke AND could only site targets out to around 500 meters in the dark, which is what? 10 hexes in the game. Also I might add a infared spot light CAN be seen with the naked eye. It would appear as a dull illuminated red dot to somebody looking into the covered arche of the searchlite. If you know what your looking for they are easy to spot after awhile. We used to spot IR searchlights/headlights that way out in the field. ;)

Seems like we need a patch to fix this "power gamer" unit. Right now it's a very unrealalistic unit. I would not use or allow an opponent to use them in ladder matches.

Also just to let you guys know here at Ft Hood they are playing with a sight for the M1A2 that uses somekind of x-ray waves or something.

Nasty stuff:D

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Post #: 33

- 9/6/2002 12:54:25 AM

Belisarius

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Commander Klank
[B]Also just to let you guys know here at Ft Hood they are playing with a sight for the M1A2 that uses somekind of x-ray waves or something.

Nasty stuff:D [/B][/QUOTE]

Probably just to check out the chicks - Superman style :D :D :D

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Post #: 34

- 9/6/2002 4:32:44 AM

Katana

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30 hexes??:eek:
Mine only work out to r10. Maybe in an older version of the game?
I don't think they should be toned down, just severely limited in availability.

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Post #: 35

- 9/6/2002 4:57:08 AM

Voriax

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Hello

I did a small test...I made a open field type battle with some Uhu's and bunkers for targets. I set the visibility to 5. And I used 12 batteries to fire smoke in front of the bunkers.
I noticed that the vision range was definitely 10 hexes but that the tanks did indeed see through 6-7 hexes of smoke..

I then pondered a bit...it's been quite some time since I played SP3 so perhaps someone else can confirm this. But I recall that in SP3 the various vision systems were coded like 10 = Infrared, 20= image intensifier and *maybe* 40 was the code used for thermal imager. So it could be that old thermal imager part still lurks in the code somewhere

Update (sort of) :) While typing this I got an idea and changed the IR vision of Uhu's to 36..meaning 9 hexes. And sure thing, the vision range was 9 hexes and they *did not* see through smoke. So editing the OOB file a bit would solve this problem, at least to a degree.

Voriax

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Post #: 36

- 9/6/2002 7:25:21 AM

AbsntMndedProf

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Orzel Bialy posted:

""Owl" in German....as the AFV could "see in the dark"."

Didn't the Luftwaffe have a night fighter called the 'Uhu' also, due to it's radar system?

Eric Maietta

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Post #: 37

- 9/6/2002 7:54:40 AM

Major Destruction

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Perhaps a German speaker can help here, but wasn't the radar system codenamed Freya because it could see in the dark?

I suspect Uhu was the codename for night hunting.

Those Germans were not as imaginative with their codenames as the British, who liked to name major offensives after race courses.

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Post #: 38

- 9/6/2002 10:28:48 AM

AbsntMndedProf

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Here is a site with information on the Luftwaffe's uhu:

http://www.simviation.com/gryphon/cfs1/he219-info.htm

Eric Maietta

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Post #: 39

Re: The Unbeatable Panther G Uhu - 9/7/2002 10:33:23 PM

Jacc

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From: Viikki Imperium
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt. Pixel
[B]These are cool German tanks (avail 8'44)
Can anyone answer these questions? Was the system used as I described above? Is the system actually able to penetrate smoke as I described? What does 'Uhu' mean?

They may be expensive, but a platoon of Panther G Uhu can easily carry the day. :cool: [/B][/QUOTE]

'Uhu' means actually "eagle owl" ([I]Bubo bubo[I] or[I]Bubo virginia[/I]) . The IR searchlights were also installed upon other vehicles. Check out the Czech OOB. There is a IR FO Vehicle... Hellowa truck... can observe arty fire in practically every situation, including the night.:eek:

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Post #: 40

- 9/12/2002 1:09:34 AM

Frank W.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt. Pixel
[B]Yeah - that's some pretty cool info. Thanks!

So I guess the Panther G Uhu couldn't have actually seen through all the smoke. Probably some glitch in the vision routine. :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]

correct .

panther G uhu is moddeled wrong in the game!!

he should have a capability of 500-600 mtr. seeing
in the dark, but not 20 hexes through thick smoke.

fighting right now a PBM against some UHU, and
they are hard to beat, you don�t see them,they see you. :eek:

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Post #: 41

- 9/13/2002 6:38:32 AM

john g

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank W.
[B]

correct .

panther G uhu is moddeled wrong in the game!!

he should have a capability of 500-600 mtr. seeing
in the dark, but not 20 hexes through thick smoke.

fighting right now a PBM against some UHU, and
they are hard to beat, you don�t see them,they see you. :eek: [/B][/QUOTE]

How do you know you are being fired at from 20 hexes away in the dark and through smoke? Every test I have made with Uhu's gives them an infared range of 10 hexes in the game.

Could it be that your opponent has modified the oobs and has better range modded in?
thanks, John.

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Post #: 42

- 9/13/2002 7:25:44 AM

JediMessiah

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im the gamer frank is referring to...and i havent modified the oobs

uhus in this game see thru all but the deepest smoke

should be limited like arty (rarity doesnt do a good enough job)

im just experimenting with em right now

-jedimessiah

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Post #: 43

As I've said... - 9/13/2002 9:03:51 PM

Jacc

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http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891/nightfightingpanthers/nightfightingpanthers.htm

That should have about all about Uhu (and the night vision equipment the Germans used).

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Post #: 44

- 9/14/2002 6:39:34 PM

Warhorse

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Well, by now we all know the capabilities, historically of this tank, unfortunately, this game engine will let things that see in the dark, see thru smoke also, that's the way it is!!:D It should belong to the '49er group though, so it can't be bought in PBEM games, just MHO.

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Post #: 45

- 9/15/2002 12:15:48 AM

Voriax

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Btw, check my earlier post. There's a fix to the 'see-thru-smoke' Uhu's. Just change one value with the OOB editor and there you go.

Voriax

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Post #: 46

- 9/16/2002 9:35:22 PM

Frank W.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Warhorse
[B]Well, by now we all know the capabilities, historically of this tank, unfortunately, this game engine will let things that see in the dark, see thru smoke also, that's the way it is!!:D It should belong to the '49er group though, so it can't be bought in PBEM games, just MHO. [/B][/QUOTE]

i think the UHU shoulb let be where it is! not in the 49 group.

the range only shoulb be 500-600m (10-12 hexes). there was a 2nd vehicle which was equipped with a longer range IR system, but this was kind of halftrack (SDKFZ). all of these vehicles should be very limited for buyers, because all of them were build in VERY lim. quantities. and as far as i know the UHU had only 2 battle apperances, but these were quite succesful,destroying in one case a whole column of british tanks in the dark.

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Post #: 47

- 9/16/2002 9:39:35 PM

Frank W.

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the UHU currently in the game is more like a late 80ties leopard2/challenger/M1. in modern SP (SP3 or SPMBT)
you can experience this with battleing russian early T72/64
on long ranges through smoke or in the dark.

the russians introduced these very good systems later, so
there was a period NATO tanks had a great advantage to
the WP armies....

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Post #: 48

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