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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> The War Room >> RE: answers to some basic questions

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RE: answers to some basic questions - 12/16/2010 10:51:08 PM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

All he really needs to do is make the Russian infantry 45%, the German infantry 65%, and SS Leibstandarte 80%. About the same effect, and no early turn ending.

That's a really great idea. Easy to implement, makes sense to me, more efficient than work arounds, easy to tweak the values for scenario balance.........I like it.

(in reply to ColinWright)

Post #: 61

RE: answers to some basic questions - 12/17/2010 12:18:16 AM

Panama

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Otherwise, you exaggerate the incongruity. Just as salt is an essential nutrient but eating a pound a day will lead to unfortunate results, high proficiency is good -- but not over 90% (or somewhere around there).

Too much of a good thing. The guys won't know when to quit.

Wouldn't making the mrpb more reasonable help alleviate that? Instead of 99 perhaps 3, 4 or 5. It would be a lot simple than changing all of those unit proficiencys. Also, wouldn't proficiencys creep up over time and put you right back where you started? I think the manual says proficiency will increase much faster of low numbers than for high numbers.

< Message edited by Panama -- 12/17/2010 12:19:59 AM >

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Post #: 62

RE: answers to some basic questions - 12/17/2010 12:46:31 AM

ColinWright

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Otherwise, you exaggerate the incongruity. Just as salt is an essential nutrient but eating a pound a day will lead to unfortunate results, high proficiency is good -- but not over 90% (or somewhere around there).

Too much of a good thing. The guys won't know when to quit.

Wouldn't making the mrpb more reasonable help alleviate that? Instead of 99 perhaps 3, 4 or 5. It would be a lot simple than changing all of those unit proficiencys. Also, wouldn't proficiencys creep up over time and put you right back where you started? I think the manual says proficiency will increase much faster of low numbers than for high numbers.

It won't creep much unless the scenario is really long and there's a lot of combat: I've never noticed this being a problem, and I was developing a scenario with sixty turns and more-or-less continuous pounding along the front. It'll jump up or down for inexperienced units, but then they're veteran, and any further changes will be insignificant.

As to simply adjusting the MRPB, I see the purpose of the game as being to simulate war, and nothing is guaranteed in war. It may be more satisfying to be sure you can get off three rounds before your opponent can react -- but I don't see it as realistic.

Conversely, I don't see what the drawback to adjusting everyone's proficiency is. You can actually do it for every unit in a force with three clicks or something: 'Force - reduce unit proficiency - 15' or thereabouts should do it.

< Message edited by ColinWright -- 12/17/2010 12:47:59 AM >

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Post #: 63

RE: answers to some basic questions - 12/17/2010 5:14:58 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: toawfan

I really appreciate the patience of the veterans. After stumbling and bumbling, I now have a thorough answer. It's understandable. I now know what is happening and why -- and I can ignore some of the posts blaming the messenger.

Still seems odd that the worst strategy is to use ready, healthy, well-supplied and proficient forces. And actually, there are several posts about how low proficiency will severely hamper the number of tactical rounds you can squeeze into a turn. But at least that shows up in the battle planner with extra turn icons to warn you.

Thanks again to those who really tried to get to the bottom of this.

I very much doubt that that is the sole issue you've been having.

I've got 90+ prof units in plenty of scenarios and yet I rarely have issues with one-combat-phase turns. I can understand a problem once in a while, but I don't think you can attribute four one-round turns in a row to a few high prof units. We'd still like to see how you set up your attacks in those turns you've had the problems with.

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Post #: 64

RE: answers to some basic questions - 12/17/2010 6:03:02 PM

Panama

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quote:

ORIGINAL: toawfan

I really appreciate the patience of the veterans. After stumbling and bumbling, I now have a thorough answer. It's understandable. I now know what is happening and why -- and I can ignore some of the posts blaming the messenger.

Still seems odd that the worst strategy is to use ready, healthy, well-supplied and proficient forces. And actually, there are several posts about how low proficiency will severely hamper the number of tactical rounds you can squeeze into a turn. But at least that shows up in the battle planner with extra turn icons to warn you.

Thanks again to those who really tried to get to the bottom of this.

Actually, the bottom of this has not been gotten to. It would seem there is some problem with this scenario that needs fixed?

< Message edited by Panama -- 12/17/2010 6:07:22 PM >

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RE: answers to some basic questions - 12/17/2010 7:11:44 PM

ColinWright

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: toawfan

I really appreciate the patience of the veterans. After stumbling and bumbling, I now have a thorough answer. It's understandable. I now know what is happening and why -- and I can ignore some of the posts blaming the messenger.

Still seems odd that the worst strategy is to use ready, healthy, well-supplied and proficient forces. And actually, there are several posts about how low proficiency will severely hamper the number of tactical rounds you can squeeze into a turn. But at least that shows up in the battle planner with extra turn icons to warn you.

Thanks again to those who really tried to get to the bottom of this.

I very much doubt that that is the sole issue you've been having.

I've got 90+ prof units in plenty of scenarios and yet I rarely have issues with one-combat-phase turns. I can understand a problem once in a while, but I don't think you can attribute four one-round turns in a row to a few high prof units. We'd still like to see how you set up your attacks in those turns you've had the problems with.

Other factors may well enter into the matter, and I don't doubt that you may have scenarios with high-prof. units where turnend doesn't pounce, but I most certainly have seen scenarios where high-proficiency units can produce four one-round turns in a row. I don't think I burnt my fingers four times in a row, but I did see at least back-to-back turn endings, pulled the high prof-units, and stopped seeing them. As with leaving your car parked on Eighth Street, how many times do you need to see it vandalized before you decide it's a bad idea to park on Eighth Street?

There's no reason other factors couldn't enter into it. However, note that Toawfan's opponent has been experiencing this as well. Still possible that play is causing it, but less likely. My guess is that some other element makes the scenario susceptible to early turnend if there are high-proficiency units.

Happily, what that might be doesn't absolutely have to be determined. Whether removing the high-prof. units will fix the problem can be checked easily enough, and if so, the problem can be fixed easily enough.

Checking this will take somewhat less time than it would take to discuss the matter. Take a turn to the point where attacks are set up, save, run the attacks with high-prof units taking part (presumably get early turn end), load again, leave the high-units out, save, and run the turn again. Repeat both a few times to be sure. If the high-prof units do seem to be the problem, globally lower both sides' unit proficiencies by 10-15%. Repeat playtest to see if the problem has indeed gone away.

< Message edited by ColinWright -- 12/17/2010 7:22:30 PM >

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Post #: 66

RE: answers to some basic questions - 3/27/2011 5:53:23 AM

Catch21

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I've read that article 20 times and still don't get it.

I was really happy to find it. Told me a lot about what I wanted to know.

This took a lot of effort to test and write, but I stand by it and think it's pretty much untouched by the latest changes to TOAWIII.

The problem with some of the testing being done here by others as I see it is that the tests are not 'discrete' or 'atomic', just wheedling one grain of truth out at a time, as opposed to rolling in several test items in which case you just get to speculate or guess as to which piece contributes to what, which doesn't help hitting the nail on the head. The 'atomic' tests take little time to design but perhaps longer to test.

Another example of a discrete test I did was taking out the Allied Air Force in the Kasserine 43 tutrorial.

I'm looking forward to taking a look at the new math behind the new release, though once I've a basic grasp of this I tend to play with an empirical bias- common sense if you will.

If you've any specific Qs, let me know and I'll try to answer, but the best way in is to test for a discrete atomic result.

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Post #: 67

RE: answers to some basic questions - 7/23/2011 12:10:25 AM

KGrob

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Wow. This is a really good thread for noobs.

I bought this game waaaay back and didn't play it much for some reason. But, recently, I've been looking at it much closer and have found it is actually a very fun and versatile game.

Where can I find more on the quantity of actions I can take before my turn is exhausted? I vaguely remember reading about that in one of the scenarios but I can't really remember how it works.

(in reply to ColinWright)

Post #: 68

RE: answers to some basic questions - 7/23/2011 1:12:28 AM

Oberst_Klink

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KGrob

Wow. This is a really good thread for noobs.

I bought this game waaaay back and didn't play it much for some reason. But, recently, I've been looking at it much closer and have found it is actually a very fun and versatile game.

Where can I find more on the quantity of actions I can take before my turn is exhausted? I vaguely remember reading about that in one of the scenarios but I can't really remember how it works.

A good reason to visit and d/l the tutorial and homemade scenarios of the Oberst at the Gefechtsstand. A bit of pro-active advertisement won't do any harm, aye? Feedback, +/- highly appreciated.

Klink, Oberst

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Post #: 69

RE: answers to some basic questions - 2/29/2012 11:30:56 AM

1st Sgt Tnic

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A little late to the party, but I couldn't agree more with KGrob.

So I have another noob question for you vets. I'm starting to get confused (not a difficult thing to do actually) over the unit acronyms and such.

Q: I'm working on the France 44 Cobra scenario atm and can't for the LIFE of me figure out some of these outfits. Does anyone have a list/chart etc. to clear up who is who and which acronyms go with them? Those Free Fr. Int. has me completely baffled. lol Intelligence? Interdiction? Something else?

It's really a bit embarrassing having spent some 29 years in a uniform, but ya can't be expected to know all that stuff anyway.

EDIT: GOOGLE is my friend! I searched HERE for the acronyms, but forgot the rest of the web.

Interestingly I was an MP in the 1st Bgd. 8th ID stationed in Mainz W. Ger in the 70s. It's kinda cool to command my old unit for a change.

Another question?

Where can I find the list of which aircraft are assigned to the various air units. "Fighter" doesn't really help me much. "Combat Support" gives a clue and my first instinct for US birds would be P47 T-Bolts, but it could still be a couple different types.

Spasibo, Danke, Merci, Thanks in advance.

< Message edited by 1st Sgt Tnic -- 2/29/2012 11:39:17 AM >

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Post #: 70

RE: answers to some basic questions - 2/29/2012 2:36:41 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1st Sgt Tnic

Q: I'm working on the France 44 Cobra scenario atm and can't for the LIFE of me figure out some of these outfits. Does anyone have a list/chart etc. to clear up who is who and which acronyms go with them? Those Free Fr. Int. has me completely baffled. lol Intelligence? Interdiction? Something else?

French Forces of the Interior: In other words, The Resistance.

What others?

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 2/29/2012 2:53:56 PM >

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Post #: 71

RE: answers to some basic questions - 2/29/2012 2:53:42 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1st Sgt Tnic

Where can I find the list of which aircraft are assigned to the various air units. "Fighter" doesn't really help me much. "Combat Support" gives a clue and my first instinct for US birds would be P47 T-Bolts, but it could still be a couple different types.

You have to look in the Unit Report for that info. (Although, once you're savy, you can tell from the unit ranges).

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 2/29/2012 2:59:31 PM >

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Post #: 72

RE: answers to some basic questions - 2/29/2012 8:24:38 PM

1st Sgt Tnic

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Thank you General. I'll get my stuff together soon.

But first another noob Q.

France 1944 Cobra scenario, I have AB troops popping up in merry old England, but no transport (Air or Sea) for them in place or in the anticipated replacements list. I've parked a HMS something or other at a port and sent the troops there but no embark button.

Should I tell em to start swimming?

Thanks mates,

Oh PS I'm at turn 18 and STILL haven't broke out of the beach head yet. These b**tards die hard in this one. I'm putting every tube that can bear on one hex untill they finally die or back out, but holy artie Batman! I gotta get movin here!

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Post #: 73

RE: answers to some basic questions - 2/29/2012 9:42:02 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1st Sgt Tnic

France 1944 Cobra scenario, I have AB troops popping up in merry old England, but no transport (Air or Sea) for them in place or in the anticipated replacements list. I've parked a HMS something or other at a port and sent the troops there but no embark button.

The airlift capacity should have arrived simultaneously with the airborne units. You simply right click on the unit and exercise the option to air embark them. The amount of airlift available is shown in the Situation Report.

quote:

Oh PS I'm at turn 18 and STILL haven't broke out of the beach head yet. These b**tards die hard in this one. I'm putting every tube that can bear on one hex untill they finally die or back out, but holy artie Batman! I gotta get movin here!

It might have helped to have read my AAR articles on the "France 1944 D-Day" scenario. See the first post in the Articles Thread.

(in reply to 1st Sgt Tnic)

Post #: 74

RE: answers to some basic questions - 3/1/2012 5:12:23 AM

1st Sgt Tnic

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???

I freely admit I'm NOT the brightest star in the night sky on any given day.

I had one unit (a stack) that let me embark them on a train. The Sit Rep shows no Airlift capacity and 29 of 250 for rail transport.

After changing my display options to ALL TOPICS, I finally found your How-To General.
Thanks

< Message edited by 1st Sgt Tnic -- 3/1/2012 5:52:21 AM >

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Post #: 75

RE: answers to some basic questions - 3/1/2012 4:34:42 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1st Sgt Tnic

???

I freely admit I'm NOT the brightest star in the night sky on any given day.

I had one unit (a stack) that let me embark them on a train. The Sit Rep shows no Airlift capacity and 29 of 250 for rail transport.

After changing my display options to ALL TOPICS, I finally found your How-To General.
Thanks

The airlift is only available on turns 13 through 17. (There is an exception that extends it to turn 18, but only under certain circumstances).

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 3/1/2012 4:46:23 PM >

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Post #: 76

RE: answers to some basic questions - 3/1/2012 9:54:00 PM

1st Sgt Tnic

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Aha, well it looks like the Lads will be keeping the ladies happy for the duration then.

Thanks General.

Actually I think I'm going to scrap that whole scenario and star over sometime.

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Post #: 77

RE: answers to some basic questions - 3/9/2012 7:44:15 AM

1st Sgt Tnic

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Air Boss, YOU'RE FIRED!!!

What the HE** is up with my Air groups?

Every darned turn I check and they are switched back to Ignore losses! I set em for Limit or Minimize and next turn, sure nuff, IGNORE losses again. Course that means that every 2nd or 3rd turn they're reorganizing or in rest because as soon as they can fight they go get themselves whacked again because they won't disengage until there's nothing left.

It seems to be the bombers that do this. The fighter guys seem to know when to run. I mean REALLY! Drop yer bombs and get out of there! This a WAR dudes!

Italy 43, btw.

TIA

< Message edited by 1st Sgt Tnic -- 3/9/2012 7:46:32 AM >

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Post #: 78

RE: answers to some basic questions - 3/9/2012 4:30:30 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1st Sgt Tnic

Air Boss, YOU'RE FIRED!!!

What the HE** is up with my Air groups?

Every darned turn I check and they are switched back to Ignore losses! I set em for Limit or Minimize and next turn, sure nuff, IGNORE losses again. Course that means that every 2nd or 3rd turn they're reorganizing or in rest because as soon as they can fight they go get themselves whacked again because they won't disengage until there's nothing left.

It seems to be the bombers that do this. The fighter guys seem to know when to run. I mean REALLY! Drop yer bombs and get out of there! This a WAR dudes!

Italy 43, btw.

TIA

Sounds like you have the Air Staff Assistant turned ON. Check your Advanced Rules Page 2 settings.

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Post #: 79

RE: answers to some basic questions - 3/9/2012 4:58:24 PM

1st Sgt Tnic

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I've been using the Air Staff, but didn't notice the constant switching to Ignore Losses until today. I also noticed it seemed to only be the bombers in CS mode. When they're in Interdiction it doesn't change.

The Assistant has been sent on R & R for the time being.

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Post #: 80

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