RE: WAW serial - few toughts

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RE: WAW serial - few toughts - 12/29/2010 9:40:02 PM

cveta

Posts: 341
Joined: 1/4/2010
From: Croatia
Status: offline

French nawy dont exist at all in WAW. That is a problem. And again I belive that Germayn is too strong. Especilay since subs are faster than ships. LOL. And there is no point in using German subs in killing suplay. They have better use like warships.
And best defence against Germany subs II or III are DD III, Thouse ships kills subs without problem even when subs II outnumber them 3 to 1. So when you play as west against Germany that like subs ( that me ) build DD III ASAP.
Secons thougt about ships - I wont argue about historicaly number of ships. We all know that and internet have no secrets. But the question is how to put expiriance os soldiers in the game. In Mediteranean theathre - Italians ws Britis nawys - we all know about daring DD atacks on stronger ships wich forces Italians to withrow. We know how well Britis plains performed in attack on Italian nawy. So I would like to say that Italians should be crippled by some way.
But the greter problem with this game is weak Su.
I think that SU dont stand a chance against prepared Germany attack. And it may be done in 1941. So basicly to restore balance germany subs should be slower amnd Italian nawy should be weaker. But Su should have 50% more production capacity and some tank uits initialy.

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of Stupid People in Large Groups

(in reply to tweber)

Post #: 31

RE: WAW serial - few toughts - 12/30/2010 3:55:54 PM

srndac

Posts: 95
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cveta

French nawy dont exist at all in WAW. That is a problem. And again I belive that Germayn is too strong. Especilay since subs are faster than ships. LOL. And there is no point in using German subs in killing suplay. They have better use like warships.
And best defence against Germany subs II or III are DD III, Thouse ships kills subs without problem even when subs II outnumber them 3 to 1. So when you play as west against Germany that like subs ( that me ) build DD III ASAP.
Secons thougt about ships - I wont argue about historicaly number of ships. We all know that and internet have no secrets. But the question is how to put expiriance os soldiers in the game. In Mediteranean theathre - Italians ws Britis nawys - we all know about daring DD atacks on stronger ships wich forces Italians to withrow. We know how well Britis plains performed in attack on Italian nawy. So I would like to say that Italians should be crippled by some way.
But the greter problem with this game is weak Su.
I think that SU dont stand a chance against prepared Germany attack. And it may be done in 1941. So basicly to restore balance germany subs should be slower amnd Italian nawy should be weaker. But Su should have 50% more production capacity and some tank uits initialy.

I totally agree with this.
SU should be stronger than it is now.
There's no way SU can withstand the German attack in WaW as it is now. Fighting in 1941 is suicide.

Historically, in winter 1941, Germans lost because:
1. their units were whittled by fighting during Barbarossa down to 20% of their original strenght. So, an, let's say, 16000 man Division was reduced to a 3200 man Regiment.
2. these units then had to hold 30 or 40 km of front each (about 100 men per km)
3. they were totally unprepared for the Russian winter and had to get warmer. And the only place to do that was in a village.
And so the Germans huddled in the houses, while the 1 km wide gaps between them swarmed with Soviets ... okay, not literally, but you get the picture ... for Soviets, smuggling supplies to the partisans and getting men out of encirclements was slightly more dangerous than going to the store ... or crossing the road ...

The end result: when a (theoretically) reinforced (but practically battered) Soviet Regiment of 1000 men and 10 tanks attacked on a (usual) 1 km wide front, it only had to detach a few men to sorround the tiny German force, and then drive on to the German rear 'till the petrol runs out ...

Right now, SU has no power to whittle down the Germans - even if it has the room for maneuver and breakthroughs ... and the Russian winter hits it as hard as the Germans - something that isn't historical at all ...

Then again, the historical Soviets had to fight against Hitler ... not the kind of super-geniuses that inhabit these forums ... :-P

cheers!
srndac

(in reply to cveta)

Post #: 32

RE: WAW serial - few toughts - 12/31/2010 10:38:48 AM

SMK-at-work

Posts: 3396
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline

Yeah I'm just throwing a few ideas out here - whether hey are able to be implemented or not I have no idea :)

The Italian fleet is easy to fix (I think...not knowing how much work it actually is...:)) - reduce their cruisers to 2-3 units and make them a unique type that can't be upgraded to CAII so the fleet doesn't have almost total immunity to air attack -that gives the Brits a chance to attack the Fleet with naval air - which is at least something close to historical and not obviously weird! :)

One of the things that makes the scenario play like a machine if the German player is up to it is that in the scenario� Germany knows that it is safe if it has 1499 PP on the border IIRC - which cveta has done.� Germany knows exactly what benefit it gets from an early attack - it should not - a bit of uncertainty would be a good thing IMO.

I honestly don't know what a believable restraint would be in the context of AT tho.

I don't agree with srndc's analysis of the reasons why the germans got bogged down - AFAIK it had more to do with lack of supplies - the units at the tip of the attacks were simply exhausted and could fight no more.

The roads were a mess, much of the motor transport had broken down & WaW has no effect for the mud that bogged down the Germans at some inopportune moment.

Could there perhaps be a "mud" effect like winter, in which all motor transport becomes immobilised and has 0 supply capacity for a turn??

< Message edited by SMK-at-work -- 12/31/2010 10:51:33 AM >

(in reply to tweber)

Post #: 33

RE: WAW serial - few toughts - 12/31/2010 11:38:08 AM

srndac

Posts: 95
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

I don't agree with srndc's analysis of the reasons why the germans got bogged down - AFAIK it had more to do with lack of supplies - the units at the tip of the attacks were simply exhausted and could fight no more.

The roads were a mess, much of the motor transport had broken down & WaW has no effect for the mud that bogged down the Germans at some inopportune moment.

Ooops - yeah, I forgot to mention supplies ...

Railroads were the main means of transport during WW2, and Soviet rails had different gauge than German - so the Gerries coudn't use them for their trains - and the Soviet trains were either blown up or pulled back - so, they (Germans) got next to no supplies.
Now - if this could be inserted in WaW - it would simulate the Russian front much better.
Also, winter clothing for ALL German troops on the Russian front was actually available - but still in depots in Poland, and with no way in hell of getting it to the front, where it's most needed.

Also, the siberians were no elite troops at all - only a fresh reserve to throw into the fight. And with both armies worn out and shot to pieces, some hundred thousand fresh siberians must have looked like a tsunami ...
Besides - the side which is the last to commit it's reserve - wins! And since the Siberians were the last reserve on both sides ...

cheers!
srndac

(in reply to SMK-at-work)

Post #: 34

RE: WAW serial - few toughts - 12/31/2010 10:30:09 PM

SMK-at-work

Posts: 3396
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline

The Siberians are a great topic of discussion - I had some arguments with people on the CEAW boards about them - they absolutely refused to accept that the Siberians were anything other than fresh troops straight from the east - even when presented with information uncovered in the last 15-20 years about exactly which divisions were bought across and where they fought, how few troops actually fought at Nomonhan, and the fact that they had all served there 2 years by he time of Barbarossa and were in reserve - IIRC there was a division or 2 in the Ukraine where most of them were known to have been called back to?

the myth of the Siberians is deeply inculcated in wargamers - especially those who like to play the side of the Germans - they cannot believe that the Communists actually raised fresh troops who were able to defeat their nice uniforms and good looking tanks

, therefore they must have had reserves of elite spetnaz trained supertroops!

But the sheer numbers of Soviet manpower are astonishing - IIRC they had 5 million troops in July, they lost 5 milloin in 1941, and hte army was actually 6 million strong at the end - so they lost the entire army but ended up with more! Sure they were not so well trained or armed....but they were enough.

(in reply to srndac)

Post #: 35

RE: WAW serial - few toughts - 1/1/2011 9:57:39 AM

srndac

Posts: 95
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

The Siberians are a great topic of discussion - I had some arguments with people on the CEAW boards about them - they absolutely refused to accept that the Siberians were anything other than fresh troops straight from the east - even when presented with information uncovered in the last 15-20 years about exactly which divisions were bought across and where they fought, how few troops actually fought at Nomonhan, and the fact that they had all served there 2 years by he time of Barbarossa and were in reserve - IIRC there was a division or 2 in the Ukraine where most of them were known to have been called back to?

the myth of the Siberians is deeply inculcated in wargamers - especially those who like to play the side of the Germans - they cannot believe that the Communists actually raised fresh troops who were able to defeat their nice uniforms and good looking tanks , therefore they must have had reserves of elite spetnaz trained supertroops!

But the sheer numbers of Soviet manpower are astonishing - IIRC they had 5 million troops in July, they lost 5 milloin in 1941, and hte army was actually 6 million strong at the end - so they lost the entire army but ended up with more!� Sure they were not so well trained or armed....but they were enough.

"Quantity has a quality of it's own." - in Stalin's own words.

Even though I'll take that 6 millions Soviets with a pinch of salt, they did outnumber that (approx.) 1 million Germans at about 2 (or 3) to 1 ratio ... and with clever deployment - that ratio grows even bigger. Russian swarms indeed.

Besides, the only elite-spetznaz-trained-supertroops in the Soviet army during that time were NKVD border guards ... and they were bigger danger to their own troops than to the Germans - being the proud descendants of the infamous Cheka. Their main expertise being: shooting deserters, shooting stragglers, shooting a few shirkers 'per encourageur les autres' (as Voltaire put it) ... well, you get the picture ...

cheers!
srndac

P.S. Well, the Germans did have nice tanks ... but as for uniforms - I'll quote the most famous Prussian of them all: "If peace had lasted beyond 1740, the soldiers would have probably worn rouge and beauty spots by now."

(in reply to SMK-at-work)

Post #: 36

RE: WAW serial - few toughts - 1/1/2011 10:06:41 PM

SMK-at-work

Posts: 3396
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline

For much of the whole "Battle of Moscow" (from Oct 41 to Feb 42) the Germans outnumbered the Russians on the Moscow front, or were only slightly outnumbered by them - another one of those myths long held by war gamers.

However when the Soviets attacked they were able to achieve superiority at selected points - which is something hte attacker vcan usually do.

I think it is a very hard dynamic to simulate in a wargame.

(in reply to srndac)

Post #: 37

RE: WAW serial - few toughts - 1/11/2011 8:51:35 PM

cveta

Posts: 341
Joined: 1/4/2010
From: Croatia
Status: offline

Nice historical discussion you two have. I must say that I agree with bouth of you. And I hope that new AT gold will fix some of problems in WAW scenario we mentioned.

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of Stupid People in Large Groups

(in reply to SMK-at-work)

Post #: 38

RE: WAW serial - few toughts - 4/13/2011 2:20:57 PM

kondor

Posts: 714
Joined: 5/27/2004
From: Croatia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

Yeah I'm just throwing a few ideas out here - whether hey are able to be implemented or not I have no idea :)

The Italian fleet is easy to fix (I think...not knowing how much work it actually is...:)) - reduce their cruisers to 2-3 units and make them a unique type that can't be upgraded to CAII so the fleet doesn't have almost total immunity to air attack -that gives the Brits a chance to attack the Fleet with naval air - which is at least something close to historical and not obviously weird! :)

The roads were a mess, much of the motor transport had broken down & WaW has no effect for the mud that bogged down the Germans at some inopportune moment.

Could there perhaps be a "mud" effect like winter, in which all motor transport becomes immobilised and has 0 supply capacity for a turn??

This ^.

Italian fleet should be attackable from CAG-s (air), and a few mud turns before and after winter would help making SU stronger which SU desperatly needs...

+mass arty&air units are way to strong in destroying ground forces...

(in reply to SMK-at-work)

Post #: 39