Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Scenario Design >> RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" Page: <<   < prev  4 5 [6] 7 8   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/20/2010 5:15:21 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline
There were only a few Ferdinands. Yet because they were unique they are in pretty much every Kursk scenario even though they made very little difference in the battle at all.

It doesn't matter to me one way or the other. Just thought I would point out that one of many unique things about the war.

_____________________________


(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 151
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/20/2010 5:43:40 PM   
briantopp

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline
I like including stuff like that (retrofit matildas), if it can be converted into toaw terms reasonably. It's interesting to see how the units perform and the layers of detail keep thingscfrom getting stale.

Re the whole lend-lease issue: trick here is to do a reconciliation with the glantz oob. I might fudge things a little to get some of the lendlease units in. Soviets seem in need of some play balance help in 42

(in reply to Panama)
Post #: 152
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/20/2010 6:11:24 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline
Another thing about the East Front is all of the conflicting information. Even with the release of previously unaccessible information there is still much confusion. Mainly because the whole afair was mass confusion. I think that's one of the things that keeps me there.

_____________________________


(in reply to briantopp)
Post #: 153
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/20/2010 9:15:32 PM   
briantopp

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline
Lots of interesting detail and feedback to play with in the discussion so far many thanks. Here's a new build if you feel like poking at it, with a bunch of tweaks:

- 22-panzer and 23-panzer are available to be transfered from AGS through theatre options, in April 1942 (this avail date basically for play-balance purposes). My story is AGS needs them until then -- and not afterwards, since "Blau" does not proceed.

- "Dora", "Thor" and "Odin" go into emergency reserve available for small VP penalties, and are reset as heavy artillery with no transport assets.

- Axis will pay a VP penalty if 10-panzer is not disbanded in late April 1942 (and Rommel will be very unhappy).

- 239-infanterie is disbanded early in the game. The unit history is sort of funny about it. Basically OKH disbanded this unit because it was taking too many casualities and because of the "excessive age of the men".

- A small but mighty series of Soviet tank brigades are feathered in between February and September 1942 with British or American lend-lease equipment (identified as "Ukll" or "USll" in the formation identifier). The M3Grant/Lee units seem fairly strong.

- I'm not sure what to do with the infantry AT equipment debate above, so have punted for now.

- Soviet PO and deployments are tweaked in a number of ways.

In my latest playtest (elmer-to-elmer, testing for playbalance within the framework of the orders both sides have), the Axis took Moscow and set up a defense efficiently between turns 1 and 50; a see-saw battle ensued between turns 50 and 100 with no fundamental change; and then the Soviets overwhelmed the Axis and drove them back to their supply centres on the western edge of the map between turns 100 and 150 or so. That seems about right at first look (similar to how "Blau" worked out over the same period). Some Manstein-level smart play should be required from the Axis side to avoid this outcome, given the rising power of Soviet production relative to Axis resources. In light of this playtest I've tweaked the Soviet PO to try to get it to play a little more aggressively in the mid-game.

- Messing with the OOB messes up many events in the editor, which then need to be fixed. Hopefully I've corrected all of them. I've read the scenario dump carefully but at a certain point it all glazes together.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by briantopp -- 11/20/2010 9:24:19 PM >

(in reply to Panama)
Post #: 154
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/20/2010 10:27:58 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline
If you want to setup the storyline in the way that 22nd & 23rd are at AGS doing their jobs(22nd conquering Kerch peninsula finished on 21st Mai & 23rd stopping Soviet attacks on Charkow finished on 28th Mai) than an even later date seems right, how about June 42 and also the units should come in with a lowered inventory.

I worked myself now thru the complete scenario so please check these files regarding initial deployment, altogether I was a bit nitpicking but I thought the shape of the front should come more out:
-TOAW save file where I move all units into position, note that corps/armies and their assets are only moved together for the sake of overview, of course the assets should be spread out as need but the HQ location seems OK were I placed them.
http://www.w7l1p4dc2.homepage.t-online.de/BattleforMoscow1941-19431.48.sal

-Here an excel file where I list the locations but also notes regarding the turn a unit should arrive but most important the OOB for the 2.10.1941 the start of Operation Taifun, the second link is for a PDF version of the excel file.
http://www.w7l1p4dc2.homepage.t-online.de/OperationTaifun2.10.1941.xlsx
http://www.w7l1p4dc2.homepage.t-online.de/OperationTaifun2.10.1941.pdf

That's all for the initial setup, my next post handles the reinforcements coming in and units that should be erased or modified.

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 11/20/2010 10:44:50 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to briantopp)
Post #: 155
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/20/2010 11:27:54 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline
Assuming that in almost all cases the arrival date of reinforcements isn't influenced by where the next summer offensive takes places I worked thru them and some dates seem to need correction, a list them all unless they hit the same month so Brian can decided where it's useful and where not the change it:
-68.ID(23K/9A) 8.8.42=should arrive March 42
-337.ID(6K/3PG) 18.11.42=should arrive 29.10.42
-291.ID(6K/3PG) 21.11.42=should arrive December 42
-331.ID(8k/9A) 28.2.42=should arrive March 42
-93.ID(27K/9A) 13.5.42=should arrive 27.2.43
-340.ID(27K/9A) 1.8.42=should arrive 7.-10.7.42
-72.ID(9K/4A) 12.9.42=should arrive 25.8.42
-218.ID(59K/4A) 25.2.42=should arrive March 42
-342.ID(59K/4A) 25.2.42=should arrive March 42
-377.ID(59K/4A) 23.5.42=should arrive June 42
-8.JäD(59K/4A) 25.2.42=should arrive 1.7.42
-3.GebD(2. Armee) 24.10.42=should arrive November 42
-383.ID(13K/2A) 11.4.42=should arrive July 42
-387.ID(13K/2A) 11.4.42=should arrive June 42
-24.PzD(47K/2PG) 23.5.42=should arrive July 42
-20.m.ID(48K/2PG) 9.12.42=should arrive 24.11.42
-Kav.Reg.Mitte(2 Panzergruppe) 13.6.42=should arrive 27.1.43
-2.Lw.FD(Luftwaffe) 17.10.42=should arrive November 42
-3.Lw.FD(Luftwaffe) 17.10.42=should arrive November 42
-4.Lw.FD(Luftwaffe) 17.10.42=should arrive November 42
-81.ID(39K/2PG) 10.12.41=should arrive 9.1.42
-205.ID(39K/2PG) 20.12.41=should arrive March 42
-328.ID(39K/2PG) 21.1.42=should arrive July 42
-246.ID(39K/2PG) 28.1.42=should arrive August 42
-211.ID(55K/2PG) 24.12.42=should arrive 12.1.42
-5.JäD(55K/2PG) 14.1.42=should arrive July 42
-88.ID(55K/2PG) 17.1.42=should arrive February 42
-329.ID(55K/2PG) 24.1.42=should arrive March 42
-330.ID(55K/2PG) 28.1.42=should arrive February 42
-LwD Meindl(2 Panzergruppe) 8.10.-19.11.42=should arrive March 42


< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 11/21/2010 2:22:56 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 156
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/20/2010 11:52:25 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline
And finally the units that should be erased or modified:
Erase:
-250.ID(only North of Lake Ilmen)
-403.SD(Never saw combat)
-201.SD(Never saw combat)
-286.SD(Never saw combat)
-203.SD(Never saw combat)
-442zbV(I think that was enever a really division just the staff)
-209.ID(was disband 1940)
-Luftwaffen-Division Meindl 21st Regiment(there was never a 21st Regiment)
-7 Fliegerdivision(no regiment xcept 1st saw action in Russia and the 1st just made rear area duty)

Modify:
-Hungarian 102. & 105. aren't not Division but Brigades at least in 41, I think they get Light Divisions but I coudn't track down when this happens.
-2 Panzergruppe is split, one has HQ and some aasets and the other no HQ and a lot assets, should that be so?
-35. Korps is 2x in the game one at 11,101 and one at 10,91, divisions are right except 1. Kavallerie-Division missing, so they should be merged together and set to the 2 Panzergruppe color schema
-331. ID has also a double entry, one at 8K/9A and one at 55K/2PG
-Ost Legion are a mystery as I can't find what units they exactly should simulate, can you give more info?
-3. Hungarian Corps should maybe be place on the south and with 2. Armee to cover the flank, that was also the oroginall position
-Infanterie-Regiment Großdeutschland leaves Theater in April 42 and comes back June/July 42 as Infanterie-Division Großdeutschland(infantry division NOT tank division)
-SS-Division Reich left theater in June 42 and came back as SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Division "Das Reich" in February/March 43

_____________________________


(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 157
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/21/2010 12:00:26 AM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline
And really finally:
The divisions available over TO:
-168.ID moved to 2. Armee in August 42
-299.ID moved to 2. Armee in January 42
-8.PzD moved to HG Mitte in December 42
-18.m.ID moved to 10K/16A on 21.12.41
So what to do than with the TOs?
Maybe those divisions should be changed with some that really not entered the theater.

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 11/21/2010 2:22:01 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 158
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/21/2010 2:56:25 AM   
briantopp

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline
Wowvamazing research thank you very much. I'll take a very careful look as I tinker with next build.

(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 159
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/21/2010 2:57:44 AM   
briantopp

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

And really finally:
The divisions available over TO:
-168.ID moved to 2. Armee in August 42
-299.ID moved to 2. Armee in January 42
-8.PzD moved to HG Mitte in December 42
-18.m.ID moved to 10K/16A on 21.12.41
So what to do than with the TOs?
Maybe those divisions should be changed with some that really not entered the theater.

I think it works to simply delete the victory point penalty on the date they really entered the theatre.

(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 160
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/21/2010 3:30:27 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

Messing with the OOB messes up many events in the editor...


Truly. Every change pretty much requires flipping thru all events to do a check. You could add 'debug' news strings to those events that key on units. For example, in the screen shot, event 360 could have a news string that reads '1/2-cav. debug'. That news won't show up in the scenario, but will help when scrolling thru and checking for things that have moved/changed. Also, there is a tick in the ini file that allows those debugged strings to appear, which is sometimes good for playtesting and verifying the firing order of events.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to briantopp)
Post #: 161
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/21/2010 7:06:01 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
Marders - Took a look at the Marder info on Auchtung Panzer.

Marders - all were armed with 75mm PAK40's or Russian 76mm PAK51's. TOAW Marder I's have numbers similar to the 50mm PAK, so I don't know what they represent because the site doesn't mention any 50mm's.

Production of Marder I = 240 from July 1942 and into 1943. Marder II = 852 from December 1941 to March 1944, service started in April 1942. Marder III = 1,756
from November 1942 to May 1944. Many were still in service in 1945. Total of 2,848 from 4-42 to 3-44 = 24 months = 118.6 per month, 29.6 per week, 14.8 per half week.

Some went to Africa and some were always on the west front. So, maybe the Marder I's should be taken out and the Marder II/III's should be zero'd at start and the production started in 4-42. Schutzen regiments maybe should get some too.

This picture is of the Marder III at Aberdeen's Ordnance Museum.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 162
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/21/2010 8:55:18 PM   
briantopp

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline
This might be all I do on this until next weekend or so (crazy week coming up). So here is another build of this thing. In this version:

- The initial assigned equipment of the panzer units has been thinned out.

- The OOBs have been tinkered with along the lines discussed above.

- I've rejigged the Axis initial set-up and reinforcement schedule to conform to most of bigduke66's suggestions (in a few cases I think the map dictates a slightly different set-up than he proposes. A couple of teaks to the composition of two of the corps are going to wait until I can imagine re-editing all the events once again).

- Combat is completely frozen during mud turns through a "ceasefire" event. I was resisting this solution to modelling mud turns because it seems to me the basic problem was movement, not combat. But I tested it today and it does seem to work fairly well as a way to impose the historically-necessary pauses during the fall and spring.

- Some marders are assigned

- I tinkered with the VP penalties for calling in emergency reserves -- the penalties aren't applied after the date of historical arrival in the theatre.

- Adjusted various PO orders.



Attachment (1)

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 163
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/22/2010 1:04:00 AM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline
Regarding the Marder I I think some got 50mm because of not having enough 75mm Pak, but the AT value is 5 and not 6 like the 50mm AT has so it still doesn't male much sense.
Or could there be another explanation, the 88mm Flak as also just 12 compared to the 88mm AT who has 19 as AT value.

_____________________________


(in reply to briantopp)
Post #: 164
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/22/2010 6:01:37 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline
As we speak of Anti-tank I think we should look at the Pak too.
If the numbers here in the lower tables are correct(and I think so as they are from Sheets of Albert Speer and also appear in "Germany and the Second World War Vol. 5/1"):
http://sturmvogel.orbat.com/GermWeapProd.html#monthly
we end up with 1854 5cm Pak at best, OK pre August 39 production is missing but I think that can be neglected. In the scenario we have already over 2700 at the start.

The numbers in the upper tables are doubtful as Fritz Hahn doesn't back up his numbers and some indeed look "fantastic", I'll try to track down something for the 7,5cm Pak, but AFAIK the 40 version didn't arrive before February 42 and the 97/38 version not before summer 42.

Altogether this would significantly lower the AT power of the German forces in the 41 offensive and against the Russian winter offensive so maybe there is no need to pimp the Russians up in that timeframe, at best I can imagine a TO that starts the winter offensive and adds a small bonus of maybe up to 5% to the Russian side.

_____________________________


(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 165
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/22/2010 8:19:13 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
I wasn't too much concerned with the actual production numbers as every source will be different. I think we are more concerned with what was available and when. So, sorry for the repeat, but I'll re-say what was said in an earlier post because I think that is what will give Brian the basis for a decision:

What do you think about the Infantry Divisions starting the scenario with 27/27 37's, 6/15 50's, 0/12 75's ?

The 37mm production can stop at the beginning of 42, and the 75's can start at that time, while the 50's can stay thru out.

A further distinction between the stop gap 75mm PAK 97/38 and the very good 75mm PAK 40 could be made by giving Inf Div's 0/12 of each at start, with the 97/38 production running from 1-42 to 6-42, and the PAK 40 from 6-42 to the end. Maybe?


Any change like this plus a change to the Marders would lessen the early AT capability of the Axis, but what else do we do, claim that superior German tactics qualifies them for extra equipment?

(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 166
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/22/2010 8:53:04 PM   
briantopp

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I wasn't too much concerned with the actual production numbers as every source will be different. I think we are more concerned with what was available and when. So, sorry for the repeat, but I'll re-say what was said in an earlier post because I think that is what will give Brian the basis for a decision:

What do you think about the Infantry Divisions starting the scenario with 27/27 37's, 6/15 50's, 0/12 75's ?

The 37mm production can stop at the beginning of 42, and the 75's can start at that time, while the 50's can stay thru out.

A further distinction between the stop gap 75mm PAK 97/38 and the very good 75mm PAK 40 could be made by giving Inf Div's 0/12 of each at start, with the 97/38 production running from 1-42 to 6-42, and the PAK 40 from 6-42 to the end. Maybe?


Any change like this plus a change to the Marders would lessen the early AT capability of the Axis, but what else do we do, claim that superior German tactics qualifies them for extra equipment?


Hmm: 2700 in 1941 deployed, against 1800 produced, sounds like an over-deployment!

So your solution is for all the German divisions in lieu of their current AT assets? What about the schutzen and the motorised AT units?





(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 167
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 12:02:37 AM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline
Check these out if you have the time to look at some examples.

http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/941GJAA.pdf

http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/942GLDB.pdf

http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/942GBMC.pdf

http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/941GKMG.pdf

http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/942GBMA.pdf

< Message edited by Panama -- 11/23/2010 12:10:32 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to briantopp)
Post #: 168
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 2:00:07 AM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline
The 15th PzD may not be a good example as they were in Africa since Mai 1941.
But again I wonder why the Pak 3,7cm is still there when the 5cm Pak was so long in production, why are they not phased out to divisions that are in France, Benelux or Norway.

@sPzAbt653
It really isn't so important how many there are at least not if the numbers are close enough together but one must not forget that Production numbers should also have an impact on the layout of the units.
But I agree totally that equipment should be available on the historical date, especially when it's a great improvement other the one it replaces.


< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 11/23/2010 2:08:27 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Panama)
Post #: 169
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 2:14:59 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

So your solution is for all the German divisions in lieu of their current AT assets?


Yes, those numbers were only for the infantry divisions.

I'll take a look at the pages that Mr. Panama posted, and here are some highlights:

1) There is an oob for the German 9th Army and 3rd Panzer Group for October 2nd, 1941. Most infantry divisions are listed as having a 'Mot. Anti-Tank Batt.' of (36) 37mmPAK's. Some do not have this unit so they must only have had their organic regimental AT guns. Panzer Divisions and Mot. Inf. Div's are also listed as having the 'Mot. Anti-Tank Batt.' of (36) 37mmPAK's. None list the 50mm PAK.

2) There is a table for the 336th Infantry Division on June 1, 1942. Each Inf. Reg. had its own PanzerJager Company. The three had a total of (8) 75mm PAK, (9) 50mm PAK, and (11) 37mm PAK. The Div. also had the 336th PzJg Batt. with (4) 75mm PAK, (12) 50mm PAK.

3) A table of weekly strengths for the 15th Pz Div from Nov 11, 1941 to Feb 21, 1942. Average weekly numbers were (12) 37mm PAK and (26) 50mm PAK.

4) A table of weekly strengths for the 15th Pz Div from Feb 21, 1942 to May 21, 1942. Average weekly numbers were (13.5) 37mm PAK and (34.3) 50mm PAK. 15th Pz was in Afrika, but we can assume Pz Div's in Russia might have had similar numbers?

5) The last page is a table for the 15th Pz Div on Feb 2, 1942. That repeats the above numbers so no need to list that again.

Thanks Panama !

(in reply to briantopp)
Post #: 170
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 2:26:20 AM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline
You're welcome. Was pointing out how the guns were distributed over the different fronts. I ran out of time so couldn't look for West Front. Also, Mr. Nafziger deserves many many thanks for making his hard work available to all.

He's the man.

_____________________________


(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 171
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 2:52:45 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline


So, looking at all this info, part of post #166 can be modified to :

Infantry Divisions starting the scenario with 27/36 37's (27 or some other number to reflect losses to date), 0/27 50's, 0/12 75's ?

The production stuff and possible 97/38's and PAK 40 stuff can stay the same.

For the Pz and Mot Div's, if we can use the 15th Pz as an example, it appears that the 50's were outnumbering the 37's by Nov 1941. In the scenario these units are broken down into reg/batt's, so do we give some AT's to both the Pz Batt's and Schutzen Reg's? Overall, 12/18 37's, 24/36 50's, 0/12 75's ?

75mm PAK40




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Panama)
Post #: 172
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 3:00:50 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

What about the ... motorised AT units?


There were a number of independant Mot AT units, but rather than have several 1-1 ant units to deal with, I'd rather assume that in the scenario these units are distributed across the front. This can also make up for some of the units not having separate units attached at the divisional level, as was the case with most but not all of the infantry div's. Just my 2 cents.

(in reply to briantopp)
Post #: 173
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 6:11:25 AM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline
Don't forget that each infantry division usually fits to a specific wave.
Check out the waves here:
http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_germany/41_organ_army/_41_org_army.htm
On 22.6.1941 an infantry division of the 1st wave had 66 37mm & 6 50mm Pak.

Motorized infantry Division:
http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_germany/41_organ_army/41_div_mot-03.html
On 22.6.1941 a motorized infantry division had 51 37mm & 9 50mm Pak.

Of course those setups are "like they should be", when comparing these to Nafziger you see that over the course of the war the real load out sometimes differed a lot from what should be in.

Anyhow maybe the different layouts of the different waves should be modeled too.

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 11/23/2010 6:12:39 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 174
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 3:15:40 PM   
briantopp

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Don't forget that each infantry division usually fits to a specific wave.
Check out the waves here:
http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_germany/41_organ_army/_41_org_army.htm
On 22.6.1941 an infantry division of the 1st wave had 66 37mm & 6 50mm Pak.

Motorized infantry Division:
http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_germany/41_organ_army/41_div_mot-03.html
On 22.6.1941 a motorized infantry division had 51 37mm & 9 50mm Pak.

Of course those setups are "like they should be", when comparing these to Nafziger you see that over the course of the war the real load out sometimes differed a lot from what should be in.

Anyhow maybe the different layouts of the different waves should be modeled too.


I was thinking exactly that -- I did something similar in "Operation Barbarossa" with some help from a collaborator who translated the "waves" into TOAW terms. I'm going to have a look at how we did that and perhaps post here as one start point each wave was fairly different from what I recall

(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 175
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 4:17:20 PM   
briantopp

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline
bigduke66: here is some info on "Ost" units, btw:

http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/942GOBC.pdf

(in reply to briantopp)
Post #: 176
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 4:51:09 PM   
briantopp

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline
So this is a first-wave infantry division (all the other waves are there too). Does anyone with a deep understanding of this notation know how to convert this to TOAW terms? i.e. how many infantry etc. in the toaw editor using the equipment editor?

http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany/41_organ_army/41_id_01-welle.html


(in reply to briantopp)
Post #: 177
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 5:32:23 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline
Ah, so I'm not alone when I look at these. It gives me a headache.

_____________________________


(in reply to briantopp)
Post #: 178
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 5:44:47 PM   
samba_liten


Posts: 367
Joined: 8/31/2001
From: Currently in Kiev
Status: offline
The below might be somewhat helpful, while i dig up some more sources.

quote:

The Infantry Divisions as Organized for War
(Example: 9th Infantry Division as of April 15,1940)
Division Staff with:
Motorcycle courier platoon
Map office or printing platoon (2 IMG)
Battle Troops:
3 Infantry regiments, each with:
Regimental staff
Intelligence platoon
Mounted platoon
Engineer platoon
Regimental band
Infantry gun company (horsedrawn) with:
- 6 light 75mm and 2 heavy
- 150mm infantry guns.
Panzerjäger company (motorized) with:
- 1 2 36mm antitank guns, 4 light machine guns
- 3 infantry battalions, each with:
- Battalion staff and intelligence platoon
- 3 rifle companies, each with 12 light machine guns,
- 3 light grenade launchers, 3 A.T. rifles
- 1 machine-gun company with 12 heavy MG, 6 heavy grenade launchers.
1 Light Infantry Column.
All the units in the regiment, except staff vehicles and antitank companies,
were horse drawn.
1 Reconnaissance Unit with:
Staff and intelligence platoon (motorized) with 9 light machine guns
Cycle squadron with:
9 light MG, 2 heavy MG, 3 light grenade launchers.
Heavy squadron (motorized) with:
- 2 light 75mm infantry guns, 3 37mm antitank guns, 3 light armored
scout cars (Panzerspähwagen)
1 Panzerjäger Unit (motorized) with:
- Staff and intelligence platoon
3 Panzerjäger companies, each with:
- 1 2 37mm antitank guns, 6 light machine guns.
1 Artillery Regiment with:
- Staff and intelligence platoon
3 light units, each with:
- Staff, intelligence platoon and survey platoon
- 3 batteries, each with 4 light 105mm light field howitzers and 2 light
machine guns
-1 artillery column
1 Heavy Battalion with:
- Staff, Intelligence Staff and Surveying & Mapping Unit
- 3 Batterys, each with 4 Heavy Field Howitzers
- 2 Light Machine Guns
-1 Artillery Cannon
All the units in the regiment, except staff vehicles, were horsedrawn;
later the heavy unit was also motorized.
1 Engineer (Pionier) Battalion with:
- Staff and battalion band
- 3 engineer companies (2 horsedrawn, 1 motorized), each with 9 IMG,
3 A. T. rifles, 3 flamethrowers
-1 bridge column B (motorized)
-1 light engineer column (motorized)
1 Intelligence Unit with:
-Staff
- 1 telephone company (partly motorized)
-1 radio company (motorized)
- 1 light intelligence company (motorized)
14 THE GERMAN INFANTRY HANDBOOK 1939-1945
Back-Line Services:
Administrative Services with
1 victualling unit
1 bakery company
1 slaughtering platoon
(all units motorized)
Supply Services with
6 supply columns (3 horsedrawn, 3 motorized)
1 fuel column
1 repair-shop company
1 supply company
(all units motorized)
Medical Services with
2 medical companies
(1 horsedrawn, 1 motorized)
1 field hospital (motorized)
2 ambulance platoons (motorized)
Veterinary Services with
1 veterinary company (horsedrawn)
Military Police Services with
1 field police platoon (motorized)
Mail Services with
1 field post office (motorized)


_____________________________

السلام عليكم

(in reply to Panama)
Post #: 179
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 5:59:29 PM   
samba_liten


Posts: 367
Joined: 8/31/2001
From: Currently in Kiev
Status: offline
Some more. Not as detailed as one would wish perhaps, but a start.

quote:

War Structure of Infantry Division 43
Division staff with map unit including printing troop (motorized), traffic
control platoon (motorized) and music corps.
3 Grenadier Regiments, each with:
1 staff company with intelligence platoon, engineer platoon, mounted
or bicycle platoon (6 light machine guns in all).
1 staff company with staff, 3 grenadier companies each (each with 16
light machine guns, 2 81mm medium grenade launchers) and 1 heavy
company (12 heavy machine guns, 6 81mm medium grenade launchers
or 75mm light infantry guns).
1 infantry gun company (12 81mm medium grenade launchers, 4
120mm heavy grenade launchers or 150mm heavy antitank guns).
1 antitank company (1 platoon with close-combat weapons, 1 platoon
with 50mm medium antitank guns, 1 platoon with 75mm heavy antitank
guns motorized).
1 fusilier battalion (instead of reconnaissance unit) with staff, structured
like a grenadier battalion, but with one company equipped with
bicycles and therefore capable of being used for reconnaissance.
1 Panzerjäger unit with staff, 1st company (6 37mm light antitank
guns, 6 50mm medium antitank guns), 2nd company (12 75mm heavy
antitank guns motorized), 3rd company (12 20mm light anti-aircraft guns
on self-propelled mantelets).
1 Artillery Regiment with:
Staff and staff battery
2 light units (each with staff, staff battery and 3 batteries, each with 4
105mm light howitzers, horsedrawn).
1 heavy unit (staff, staff battery and 3 batteries, each with 4 150mm
heavy howitzers motorized) (sometimes also 1 unit with 2 batteries of
88mm anti-aircraft guns, motorized for ground combat).
1 engineer battalion with staff, 1 horsedrawn company, 1 company
with bicycles, battle gear echelon.
1 intelligence unit with staff, 1 telephone company, partly motorized,
1 radio company, motorized, 1 light intelligence column.
1 division combat school.
Medical Services with:
1 medical company, horsedrawn
1 medical company, motorized
1 ambulance company
Administrative Services with:
1 administrative company, motorized, including commissariat
1 bakery company, motorized
1 butcher company, motorized
1 veterinary company, horsedrawn
1 field post office, motorized
Supply Services with:
Staff division supply leader (Dinafü)
2 wagon columns, horsedrawn, with total potential load of 90 tons
1 truck company with potential load of 30 tons
1 supply company, partly motorized
1 motor park troop company with 2 repair-shop platoons and 1 armorer
platoon
Noteworthy differences between this new structure and the old type are:
The 3rd battalion of every regiment was disbanded, likewise the regimental
band and the light infantry columns, the supply trains were
strongly reduced. The reconnaissance unit was turned into a fusilier battalion,
corresponding to a grenadier battalion, the Panzerjäger unit was
armed with fewer antitank guns. The artillery regiment lost its third light
unit and horsedrawn column, and the engineer battalion was also
strongly reduced. The field replacement battalion was also cut. In the
medical services, the field hospital had been largely eliminated since 1942
and transferred to the army medical units. But field hospitals could be
requested in cases of special need. In addition, the supply services were
reduced.
At first glance, the reductions in supply trains and services do not
appear very great. But the decisive feature was that a large number of
these soldiers could now be replaced by volunteers who were now an
144 THE GERMAN INFANTRY HANDBOOK 1939-1945
organized part of the army (see also section "The Volunteers") and added
to the combat troops.
These new-type divisions were supposed to have, as of December 1,
1943, a total strength of 13,656 men, of whom 9652 men (71.6%) belonged
to the combat groups, 2245 men (16.4%) to the supply trains and 1759
men (12%) to the back-line services. In the supply and back-line services,
several hundred volunteers (the number was not officially set, but left up
to the division) often worked.
The armaments were: 2128 pistols, 7980 rifles, 103 rifles with telescopic
sights, 302 grenade-launching rifles (Schiessbecher), 681 machine
pistols, 128 light and heavy machine guns, 72 81mm medium grenade
launchers, 21 120mm heavy grenade launchers, 12 75mm light infantry
guns, 6 150mm heavy infantry guns, 6 37mm light antitank guns, 24
50mm medium antitank guns, 18 75mm heavy antitank guns, 12 20mm
light anti-aircraft guns, 24 105mm light howitzers, 12 150mm heavy howitzers.
Later there were also 600 assault rifles, 108 Panzerschreck and a
great number of Panzerfaust antitank weapons.


_____________________________

السلام عليكم

(in reply to samba_liten)
Post #: 180
Page:   <<   < prev  4 5 [6] 7 8   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Scenario Design >> RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" Page: <<   < prev  4 5 [6] 7 8   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.797