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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

 
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 6:28:54 PM   
samba_liten


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Now for the detailed stuff. interestingly, this stuff differs from the source i posted above to some extent.
For another point of view you could check http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?3401-german-to-amp-e
1st Welle:

3 Regiments, each with 3 battalions.
Total equipment for 1 regiment:
36 HMG
112 LMG
18 Heavy Mortars (82mm)
27 Light Mortars
2 50mm AT Guns
9 37mm AT Guns
6 75mm Infantry Guns
2 150mm Infantry Guns

For TOAW we end up with 12 squads to a company * 3 = 36 squads for a battalion * 3 = 108 for a regiment * 3 = 324 for the division.  Then we have 36 HMG * 3 Regiments = 108 HMG, and 18 * 3 Heavy Mortars = 54 Heavy Mortars,27 * 3 = 81 Light Mortars and 2 * 3 = 6 50mm AT Guns as well as 9 * 3 = 18 37mm AT Guns. Finally we have 6 * 3 = 18 75mm Inf. Guns and 2 * 3 = 6 150mm Inf. Guns.
In a list we get, so far:
324 squads
108HMG
54 82mm mortars
81 50mm Mortars
6 50mm AT
18 37mm AT
18 75mm Inf Guns
6 150mm Inf Guns

After i walk the dog, i'll decode the artillery regiment.

Edit: Forgot the 50mm Mortars.








< Message edited by polarenper -- 11/23/2010 7:01:18 PM >


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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 7:00:00 PM   
samba_liten


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1 Artillery regiment with 4 battalions:
1 Heavy Battalion with:
12 s.F.H 18 (150mm)
6LMG
3 Battalions with:
12 l.F.H 18 (105mm)
6LMG

So, for TOAW we end up with 12 s.F.H 18 and 3 * 12 = 36 l.F.H 18 and 4 * 6 = 24 LMG which i take to represent a light rifle squad.

In a list:
12 s.F.H 18
36 l.F.H 18
24 Light Rifle Squads

Next, we have the divisional AT Battalion.
It had 3 Companies, each with:
12 37mm AT Guns
6LMG
That makes 12 * 3 = 36 37mm AT and 6 * 3 = 18 Rifle Squads. (Heavy or light, i leave for you to make your mind up about!)

Then there is the Recon Battalion. It had armored cars, but i am not able to make out how many from the link you gave. http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?3401-german-to-amp-e says 3. If we take that link for tru, we end up with:

3 SdKfz 221
3 37mm AT
2 75mm Infantry Gun
4 HMG
9 Bicycle Squads
9 Cavalry Squads.

Finally there's the Engineers.
18 Engineer Squads.




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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 7:06:04 PM   
samba_liten


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So, as far as I can make out a 1st Welle infantry division should look like this: (NOTICE: I haven't included any transport assets, as i believe most people do not use the historical number of trucks anyway.)
(This is putting all the divisional units in one counter.)
324 Rifle Squads
108 Heavy Rifle Squads
55 82mm mortars
6 50mm AT
66 37mm AT
20 75mm Inf Guns
6 150mm Inf Guns
12 s.F.H 18
36 l.F.H 18
57 Light Rifle Squads
3 SdKfz 221
11 Bicycle Squads
11 Cavalry Squads
27 Engineer Squads

Edit: Oops...forgot the engineers this time.
Edit 2: Math correction for the blinkin' engineers.
Edit 3: Fixed math and inconsistencies.

< Message edited by polarenper -- 11/24/2010 6:50:02 PM >


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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 7:19:55 PM   
samba_liten


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Looking at the 2nd Welle, i see no differences.

The 3rd Welle would look like this:
324 Rifle Squads
108 Heavy Rifle Squads
9 82mm mortars
48 37mm AT
24 75mm Inf Guns
12 s.F.H 18
36 l.F.H 18
57 Light Rifle Squads
3 SdKfz 221
9 Bicycle Squads
27 Engineer Squads

Edit: Updated numbers and equipment.

< Message edited by polarenper -- 11/24/2010 7:27:52 PM >


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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 7:24:51 PM   
samba_liten


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4th Welle is again slightly different!
Like so:

324 Rifle Squads
108 Heavy Rifle Squads
54 82mm mortars
6 French 47mm AT (Known as 4.7 cm PAK 181 (f) (ex french M-37,a very effective AT gun, also known as SA 37 APX)or 4.7 cm PAK 183(f) (ex french M-39, development of the M-37) )
67 37mm AT
18 75mm Inf Guns
6 150mm Inf Guns
12 s.F.H 18
36 l.F.H 18
55 Light Rifle Squads
22 Bicycle Squads
27 Engineer Squads

Edit: Updated and revised

< Message edited by polarenper -- 11/24/2010 7:37:32 PM >


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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 7:30:00 PM   
samba_liten


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5th Welle is different again, and for what it's worth, was equipped with captured motor vehicles.
It looks like this:

324 Rifle Squads
108 Heavy Rifle Squads
36 82mm mortars
60 37mm AT
18 75mm Inf Guns
6 150mm Inf Guns
12 s.F.H 18
36 l.F.H 18
48 Light Rifle Squads
23 Bicycle Squads
27 Engineer Squads

Edit: Updated

< Message edited by polarenper -- 11/24/2010 7:41:10 PM >


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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 7:33:33 PM   
samba_liten


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Here comes the 6th Welle.

324 Rifle Squads
108 Heavy Rifle Squads
54 82mm mortars
48 37mm AT
18 75mm Inf Guns
12 Czech 155mm
36 l.F.H 18
42 Light Rifle Squads
9 Bicycle Squads
27 Engineer Squads

Edit: Updated

< Message edited by polarenper -- 11/24/2010 7:44:39 PM >


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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 7:37:14 PM   
samba_liten


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And the 7th:

324 Rifle Squads
108 Heavy Rifle Squads
55 82mm mortars
68 37mm AT
4 28mm AT Rifles
18 75mm Inf Guns
6 150mm Inf Guns
12 s.F.H 18
36 l.F.H 18
57 Light Rifle Squads
3 SdKfz 221
19 Bicycle Squads
4 Cavalry Squads
27 Engineer Squads

Edit: Updated

< Message edited by polarenper -- 11/24/2010 7:47:02 PM >


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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 7:41:24 PM   
samba_liten


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8 Welle is the same as the 7th as far as i can see.
9th and 10th had been disbanded after the French campaign.

11th is a step up, but still a strange mixture compared to earlier waves. Here it is:

324 Rifle Squads
108 Heavy Rifle Squads
54 82mm mortars
6 50mm AT
54 37mm AT
9 French 47mm AT
20 75mm Inf Guns
6 150mm Inf Guns
12 s.F.H 18
36 l.F.H 18
58 Light Rifle Squads
22 Bicycle Squads
12 Cavalry Squads
27 Engineer Squads

Edit: Updated

< Message edited by polarenper -- 11/24/2010 7:50:29 PM >


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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 7:44:35 PM   
samba_liten


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12th Welle:

324 Rifle Squads
108 Heavy Rifle Squads
54 82mm mortars
75 37mm AT
20 75mm Inf Guns
6 150mm Inf Guns
12 s.F.H 18
36 l.F.H 18
58 Light Rifle Squads
23 Bicycle Squads
11 Cavalry Squads
27 Engineer Squads


That's it for today. I'm getting tired. If no-one else volunteers, tomorrow I'll edit out the mistakes that no doubt snuck in, and finish off the list of Welles.

Edit: Updated

< Message edited by polarenper -- 11/24/2010 7:52:50 PM >


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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 8:26:00 PM   
r6kunz


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Polarenper
Nice work on putting that all together!
One question with regards to what type rifle squad to use.  Norm defines rifle squads as: ·        
    "Rifle squad – standard WWII infantry with bolt action rifles and some automatic weapons. ·   
          Heavy rifle squad – U.S. and late WWII (1944+) German or Soviet infantry armed with automatic rifles, and German WWII infantry (italics mine) with more than the usual number of attached light machine guns."

       This suggests that we should perhaps use the heavy rifle squad for the Germans to incorporate the squad-level bipod MG34, and regular rifle squads for Soviets with lighter M-27.  This is, of course, a debatable topic, and indeed was a debate topic of a Forum thread a while back.  TOAW gurus, much more knowledgeable than I, concluded by agreeing to disagree, and “use a consistent system and stick to it”.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                            
     This brings up the second topic for debate, and that is how to define the multipurpose MG34, that is LMG, MMG and HMG?  I appears that an HMG actually refers to .50/DShk12.7; note the antiarmor =2, antipersonnel=3 values are the same as the SPAAMG values.  Assigning the tripod MG34 as an HMG  would probably overstate the AT strength for the division, since the 7.92 mm does not have the same antiarmor effect as a 12.7 mm.
Again Norm defines company level heavy weapons: “platoon would typically have two to four rifle squads as well as a number of platoon level heavy weapons (light mortars and light or medium machine guns).”
So, what does this mean in TOAW?
In Road to Moscow, I have used German Heavy Rifle Squads, to incorporate the bipod MG34, and  the tripod MG34 as an MMG. But of course that is my interpretation of Norm...        

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 8:36:06 PM   
samba_liten


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I don't remember if there is a HMG available in the editor. If not, then what i have put as HMG's could conceivably be used to upgrade the squads to heavy rifle squads. If there is a HMG along with an MMG as well, then perhaps my HMG's should be downgraded to MMG's.

As for the normal rifle squads, they are not shown on the schematic. I simply put one rifle squad for each LMG shown in the infantry regiments, and a light infantry squad for any LMG's in the artillery regiment, recon or anti tank units.
The light rifle squads are, to my mind, a good way to show the soldiers who did not have as much experience at front line soldiering as the grunts in the infantry regiments, and also to show troops meant to provide security for AT guns etc. I'm guessing here, but i would think that these LMG's didn't come with a full 12 man squad like the main regiment ones did. 

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/23/2010 9:43:00 PM   
briantopp

 

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Amazing work polarender thank you very much!

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/24/2010 5:05:16 AM   
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You can also download Jon Martina stuff here so you can use it offline.:
http://sites.google.com/site/toawredux/Home/toaw-articles/WWIITOEsforTOAWbyJonMartina.zip?attredirects=0&d=1

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RE:Welcome back Brian - 11/24/2010 6:07:53 AM   
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Welcome back, Brian!  I have always enjoyed your scenarios…the documentation for Operation Typhoon is great.  Any chance of getting your website back up? I am looking forward Battle for Moscow…(I do not have Beta 3.4 loaded yet).

Have you had a chance to look at Road to Moscow Series for TOAW, Vol VIII “What if?”.  It is a  hypothetical scenario where Hitler is persuaded by OKH to attack directly toward Moscow following the  Moscow following the  Battle of Smolensk.  It uses essentially the same set up as Vol III “Guderian Moves South”, and launches the attack on Moscow on 13 August.  

This is the thesis of the book by Russel H.S. Stolfi, Hitler’s Panzers East: World War II Reinterpreted.   http://militera.lib.ru/h/stolfi/index.html. It is an interesting read, although he argues the Germans could be at 80% strength, which might be a bit of a reach.  He posits the Germans could take Moscow by 31 August, which might also be  reach. 

     The present The Road to Moscow Series in Beta 3.4 is v1.4, and is also a work in progress. I hope to have a v2.0 for TOAW III 3.5.   I would certainly welcome your expertise and suggestions.
Cheers,
Robert

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RE: RE:Welcome back Brian - 11/24/2010 4:40:13 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HPT KUNZ

Welcome back, Brian!  I have always enjoyed your scenarios…the documentation for Operation Typhoon is great.  Any chance of getting your website back up? I am looking forward Battle for Moscow…(I do not have Beta 3.4 loaded yet).

Have you had a chance to look at Road to Moscow Series for TOAW, Vol VIII “What if?”.  It is a  hypothetical scenario where Hitler is persuaded by OKH to attack directly toward Moscow following the  Moscow following the  Battle of Smolensk.  It uses essentially the same set up as Vol III “Guderian Moves South”, and launches the attack on Moscow on 13 August.  

This is the thesis of the book by Russel H.S. Stolfi, Hitler’s Panzers East: World War II Reinterpreted.   http://militera.lib.ru/h/stolfi/index.html. It is an interesting read, although he argues the Germans could be at 80% strength, which might be a bit of a reach.  He posits the Germans could take Moscow by 31 August, which might also be  reach. 

     The present The Road to Moscow Series in Beta 3.4 is v1.4, and is also a work in progress. I hope to have a v2.0 for TOAW III 3.5.   I would certainly welcome your expertise and suggestions.
Cheers,
Robert



That you for saying that hpt. These things certainly are fun to do.

Website: it came down when geocities did. Perhaps in the spirit of the newly-renewed game I should find another home for it.

RtM: I havent have a chance to look at that yet I confess, but I think the approach of representing the campaign in a series of bite-sized operations is very smart. (Probably a better fit for TOAW than the monster game I'm playing with here. Up to now I've very rarely tried a scenario lasting longer than 30 turns because the order is a little tall for the PO. But I like this topic and theorize that Elmer can handle this relatively simple interior-lines, inverse-funnel battle). I will take a look at "Road to Moscow" and offer you any comments that arise -- sounds like a nice job.

And I'll check out that book. Personally I'm not in the "Kiev was a mistake" camp, in that regaging debate that has gone on since 1945. Capturing a 600,000-man army is hard to frame as a mistake -- and leaving it on your southern flank, ready to kick in a long salient to Moscow, feels like one. Stolfi certainly has many supporters in the ranks of German memoir-writers, however.


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RE: RE:Welcome back Brian - 11/24/2010 6:19:30 PM   
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Welcome back Hauptmann Kunz! I canvassed for your RTM series, as well as for a break down of the operation Brian is planning into chunks... Alas, I am just a humble observer and playtester and researcher... Whenever you lads need me to find something that might be useful for your projects, drop me a line!


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RE: RE:Welcome back Brian - 11/24/2010 8:04:22 PM   
samba_liten


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Here comes a light division of the 12th Welle, but first an explanation of my reasoning here.

A squad in an infantry regiment counts as a Rifle Squad. They are marked with LMG's on the schematic. Each Battalion has a heavy company with 12 HMG's. I've put those as Heavy Rifle Squads.
Other parts of the division also has LMG's assigned. I've included each one as a Light Rifle Squad, the reason being that the troops in these units would not have been rifle men as such, but assigned to protect howitzers or AT guns etc. Therefore i have chosen to believe that their combat power was less than that of a "proper" rifle squad.

On to the Light Division (equipped with captured motor vehicles):

216 Rifle Squads
48 Heavy Rifle Squads
36 82mm mortars
4 28mm AT Rifles
47 37mm AT
14 75mm Inf Guns
8 s.F.H 18
28 l.F.H 18
39 Light Rifle Squads
30 Bicycle Squads
51 Engineer Squads (including 9 bicycle mounted engineer squads!)

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RE: RE:Welcome back Brian - 11/24/2010 8:11:07 PM   
samba_liten


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13th Welle:
Captured motor vehicles and most weapons were of captured stock.

324 Rifle Squads
108 Heavy Rifle Squads
21 37mm AT
8 Light Czech Field Howitzers
16 Czech 105mm Howitzers
21 Light Rifle Squads
21 Bicycle Squads
36 Engineer Squads

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RE: RE:Welcome back Brian - 11/24/2010 8:13:36 PM   
samba_liten


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14th Welle:

324 Rifle Squads
108 Heavy Rifle Squads
21 37mm AT
24 l.F.H 16
21 Light Rifle Squads
21 Bicycle Squads
36 Engineer Squads

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RE: RE:Welcome back Brian - 11/24/2010 8:15:49 PM   
samba_liten


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15th Welle:

288 Rifle Squads
12 l.F.H 16
8 Light Rifle Squads
9 Engineer Squads

That's it for the infantry. Let me know if you need the motorized, mountain or panzer divisions from that site.

Edit: Typo on the arty...

< Message edited by polarenper -- 11/24/2010 8:16:52 PM >


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RE: RE:Welcome back Brian - 11/24/2010 8:22:08 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: briantopp

Personally I'm not in the "Kiev was a mistake" camp, in that regaging debate that has gone on since 1945. Capturing a 600,000-man army is hard to frame as a mistake -- and leaving it on your southern flank, ready to kick in a long salient to Moscow, feels like one. Stolfi certainly has many supporters in the ranks of German memoir-writers, however.




What fun. I'm similarly ambivalent -- 600,000 prisoners isn't chopped liver. However, I'm inclined to come down on the side of a drive on Moscow.

First off, in Russia Germany had a bear that it had momentarily knocked down. If you knock a bear down, you don't go for a contest of strength, you go for the jugular.

Secondly, I've been reading the first two volumes of Glantz's Stalingrad trilogy. It makes it quite clear that right through the end of 1942, reasonably fit German divisions could easily fend off even the most determined Soviet counter-offensives. See in particular the repeated -- and impressively unsuccessful -- attacks on the northern shoulder of the Stalingrad salient and attempts to recapture Voronezh. Until the Summer of 1943, the Russians were only able to achieve significant successes against German troops that were already exhausted and depleted by their own exertions or against the armies of German satellites. This won't be what Kirponos will run into if he turns north.

We can assume that the troops around Kiev would have posed a threat to the German flank. However, I think it would have turned out to have been a manageable threat. At the same time, I think the Soviet regime was tottering: Moscow falling at the end of the summer of 1941 could well have produced collapse. Aside from everything else, it's worth noting that at this date, the populace would still be unaware or unconvinced that the Germans were an even worse threat than Stalin. Moscow goes, and rebellion starts flaring all over the Soviet Union. The word's going to go out from mountain villages in the Caucasus to the slave camps in the Kolyma. By winter, there isn't going to be a Soviet state.

It's often argued that Russian defenses on the road to Moscow in August would have proved formidable. But I have a very hard time believing that. When the Germans did resume their advance in October, they almost effortlessly sliced these defenses to pieces. It was the onset of mud that gave the Russians some breathing room. So why would it be harder in August -- against defenses that had not had two months to be manned and prepared?

When I picture the 'what if' I see the Germans resuming their advance with great success. The Soviet forces to the south, whipped on by Stalin, struggle to disentangle themselves from their struggle with Army Group South and mount an offensive northwards. But this is the Soviet Army of 1941, and it's got to advance a considerable distance, against perfectly intact German defenses with considerable room to fall back. I don't see them making much progress.

The Germans roll triumphantly into Moscow in September and the Soviet Union collapses. Can't guarantee it, but that's the outcome I'd predict.

< Message edited by ColinWright -- 11/24/2010 10:08:08 PM >


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RE: RE:Welcome back Brian - 11/24/2010 9:10:18 PM   
Panama


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I'm with ColinWright. Here's why:

If the Soviets had pushed into the south flank of a German drive on Moscow they would still have to contend with the German army south of the swamps. A weakened Soviet south would have been chopped to pieces. And don't forget Buddeny was in command in the south where a push against a German flank would have taken place. At that level of command he was horribly inept. Give him an untrained army and I think you are looking at a disaster for an offensive.

The Soviet defenses in front of Moscow were weaker when Guderian went to argue with Hitler about a push on Moscow in late August. In October, when the Soviets had time to strengthen things even more, the Germans still pushed through them.

Moscow was the transportation hub of the Soviet Union. All of the militarily important rail lines ran through there. Moscow falls and the north and south are split in two. To get north to south by rail would have meant going east of the Urals and then back west.

The Soviets would have been forced to commit troops they still held in reserve. Those troops resulted in the very successful winter offensive. What would have been left for a winter offensive if forced to commit those troops earlier than they did?

Some Moscow citizens had begun to openly criticize Stalin when the Germans got close in November/December. Not for long but still, it was there. If Moscow falls what happens to the southern regions of the Soviet Union? Very possibly armed revolt. They had just finished quelling that very thing only nine years earlier.

In late August the Soviet Union was ripe for the picking. Kiev and 600k troops weren't the prize Moscow, it's factories, it's populace, it's transportation center and it's troops would have been.

But then opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one.

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RE: RE:Welcome back Brian - 11/25/2010 3:22:39 PM   
Panama


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This probably isn't a big deal except for Grognards. The TO&E didn't have anti tank rifles until the December 41 Shtats. The AT rifles were actually used first in November 1941 by the 1075th Rifle Regiment. I realize they are shown as part of the TO&E in the April 1939 Shtats but production was terminated before many were produced and subsequent Shtats had removed the rifles until December 1941.

Production was resumed in July with two types. Semi auto (PTRS) and bolt action single shot (PTRD). The semi was more difficult to make so the bolt action was the predominate model, about 3 to 1.

Also, there are two 150th Tank Brigades. I don't see two same named 150th Tank Brigades in the unit histories.

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1.59 - 11/25/2010 5:12:14 PM   
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No AT Rifles on the Axis side either, if anyone is counting those as someting that needs to occupy slots.

29 mot is in a 27 PzK Formation (no such thing). Maybe should be in 47 PzK of 2 PzG.

Don't know if it was intended, but some regular artillery units still have 170's - 10 corps AOK16, 8th corps AOK9 (2), 46th pz 4pzG (3), 2nd panzer Group, 35th corps 2pzG.

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RE: 1.59 - 11/25/2010 6:02:18 PM   
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I was also wondering. How would a scenario designer differentiate Heavy AT Rifle from an AT Rifle. The Soviets used 14.5mm AT Rifles. The Germans had Panzerbüchse 38 or 39 7.92mm plus the 2.8 cm schwere Panzerbüchse 41 (yeah, I know, but it's called an anti tank RIFLE). The Finns and Japanese had 20mm. The Boys was .55 (13.9mm).

Would 7.92mm to 14.5mm be a regular AT Rifle while anything larger a Heavy AT Rifle?

Just wondering.

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RE: RE:Welcome back Brian - 11/25/2010 9:04:20 PM   
r6kunz


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Nice work, polarenper. Yes, it would be great to see the TOAW breakdown for 1941 panzer and mot inf schützen. I believe these had three rifle squads per platoon, and two MG per squad.
Thanks again for your work on this.

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RE: RE:Welcome back Brian - 11/26/2010 2:14:35 AM   
briantopp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HPT KUNZ

Nice work, polarenper. Yes, it would be great to see the TOAW breakdown for 1941 panzer and mot inf schützen. I believe these had three rifle squads per platoon, and two MG per squad.
Thanks again for your work on this.


I second that!

This is incredibly helpful and I bet will be referred to quite a bit in the future.

(If you're up for it, could I put in a pitch to break out the panzer and motorised divisions by battalion/regiment, perhaps along the lines I've laid them out in BfM? I think they model and play well laid out that way.)

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RE: 1.59 - 11/26/2010 6:47:50 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

I was also wondering. How would a scenario designer differentiate Heavy AT Rifle from an AT Rifle. The Soviets used 14.5mm AT Rifles. The Germans had Panzerbüchse 38 or 39 7.92mm plus the 2.8 cm schwere Panzerbüchse 41 (yeah, I know, but it's called an anti tank RIFLE). The Finns and Japanese had 20mm. The Boys was .55 (13.9mm).

Would 7.92mm to 14.5mm be a regular AT Rifle while anything larger a Heavy AT Rifle?

Just wondering.


The 2.8 cm sPzBusche is in the database, and I treat it as an anti-tank gun. I'd probably do the same with a 2 cm piece -- or maybe use the 'heavy AT rifle.'

However, I'm starting to just omit anti-tank rifles proper. I've run into very little to suggest they were any more effective than Molotov cocktails and whatever other anti-tank weapons the infantry of the time had. Certainly it's not impressive that the Boys was captured in large numbers by the Germans at Dunkirk and dismissed as useless. The next year, the Germans themselves were known to throw away their own anti-tank rifles in disgust.

The Russian pieces might have been more useful -- but I'd be inclined to just omit them as well. Can anyone cite any examples -- outside of Soviet propaganda -- of a German tank force suffering significant losses to their fire?


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RE: 1.59 - 11/26/2010 2:44:21 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Wiki sums it up nicely:

The usefulness of rifles for this purpose ran from the introduction of tanks in World War I into the early Second World War, when they were rendered almost entirely obsolete. Vehicle armour became too thick to be penetrated by rigid projectiles from rifles that could be carried by a single soldier.

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